Author Topic: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502  (Read 38951 times)

Offline raynerd

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Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« on: May 11, 2009, 12:44:36 AM »
Hi Guys

I`ve been looking at these two mills, the X2 and SM25. Could someone explain why the SM2502 has a much higer price tag - £850 and the X2 can be purchased new for £390? Is the sm2502 a much better machine for the money?

Sieg X2:
Drilling capacity 13mm
End milling capacity 16mm
Face milling capacity 30mm
350watt/1/2 hp (single phase) Motor rating
High/low gear selection
Cross axis (X) 100mm
Longitudinal axis (Y) 220mm
Headstock travel (Z) 180mm
Spindle taper MT#3
Spindle tilting angle -45 degree +45 degree
T-slot 12mm
Chuck guard
Packed dimensions 540x500x760 mm
Packed weight 68kg approx

Sealey SM2502
Drilling Capacity: 13mm
Face Mill Capacity: 30mm
End Mill Capacity: 16mm
Headstock Travel: 180mm
Cross Axis: 100mm
Longitudinal Axis: 220mm
Spindle Tilt Angle: ±45°
Spindle Taper: MT3
Spindle Speed - Low Range: 0-1100rpm
Spindle Speed - High Range: 0-2500rpm
T-Slot: 12mm
Motor Power: 350W - 230V
Weight: 68kg
 
I have been getting quite confused because it looks to me like there are two sealey machines, the sm25 and the sm2502:
SM2502 - http://www.sealey.co.uk/PLPageBuilder.asp?gotonode=ViewProduct&method=mViewProduct&productid=9221
SM25 -    http://www.sealey.co.uk/PLPageBuilder.asp?gotonode=ViewProduct&method=mViewProduct&productid=8044

I have been trying to identify this machine:



I first thought it was a sieg X2 but now believe it to be the SM2502? It is currently at £200 and I was considering it should it go to below £250 but I`m now confused - if it is the sm2502 is it really worth £300 (+£40 petrol to pick it up) when I can get an X2 for £375 new?

Any help appreciated. Just so you know where I am at - I have just finished a little project of a carriage stop for my lathe which I will shortly be posting on the site. I have done some light milling using a vice and clamping the work in the toolpost on the lathe and was really impressed by the results. It worked really well and I have decided that due to money, space and current level of skill, something in size range of the mills above would suit me. It is just getting one at the right price. ...

Cheers
Chris

bogstandard

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2009, 02:10:43 AM »
Chris,

First off, Sealey is geared towards the motor trade, and when looking at machinery like this, they are just box shifters.

They are selling to an audience that most times have no idea of the cost of machinery, just buy it in and stick it on the bench, and as such Sealey just put a figure on it and hope it sells. They are renowned for being very expensive for machinery compared to normal outlets. Clarke (Machine Mart) is another of such outlets. Your mini lathe was most probably bought by someone who didn't know which way to stand up, hence the very little use it had had. But they do usually have a higher quality control on the items they do sell, and will be made to about the best standards they can be (but that doesn't mean set up spot on, just made). Your lathe attests to that, when measured up, it was almost perfect in all areas.

The SM 25, is a rather large machine, and is called in general terms a mill/drill. It is about twice the size and weight of the X2 you are looking at. Normal machine retailer cost is just under 1K squid.

Where you can score if buying a low mileage used machine second hand, are the bits that come with it. For starters, if you buy a new machine, you will also be required to buy a collet set and a vice, which will most probably set you back 150 squid, on top of what you have just paid for the new machine. Then you will have cutters and other ancilliaries like parallels to get as well.

If you can get all these thrown in with the second hand machine, it then becomes a very tempting package indeed. If it doesn't come with the tooling, it looks a little on the high cost side, and again, you will have to factor in the cost of essential tooling. You will need to ask the seller the right questions.

The X2 does have a few little niggles, but third party upgrades can take care of those, at extra cost to you of course. You could buy a brand new machine, put a bit too heavy a cut on, and within five minutes you can have a breakdown when the gears shed their teeth. Spares are readily available and reasonably cheap, but being without a machine for a few days can be a bit offputting, so people usually go for a belt drive conversion, which seems to cure the problem and makes the machine a lot quieter, and again, more cash out of the moth pit in your wallet.

These are all things that have to be looked at. A machine is just a collection of parts for a price, getting it to a stage where it will do the job is another matter. A rule of thumb, cost of machine = X, cost of getting the bits to make it useable will cost X divided by 2. So a 400 squid new machine will require another 200 squid (minimum) for operational bits.

John

Offline raynerd

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2009, 02:53:58 AM »
Hi John

As always, I appreciate your advice.

You know I have been looking at milling for a while and since my lathe was tuned up I haven`t been away from it. I am becoming much more capable and I think since having success is making a simple part, I have become more confident. I have been milling some very soft aluminium and even with a temporary fix of a clamped down job in the tool post on the lathe, I was really impressed with the results. A mill is definitely on the cards, it is just finding one at the correct price.

I have always had to be sensible when spending my money and hence when I paid £120 for my clarke cl300m lathe, saw it up and running, I couldn`t go far wrong - it does seem however that this sort of bargain on a milling machine is eluding me - there just doesn`t seem to be as many for sale.

Never the less - I will keep looking. I like the fact that the X2 is well documented on the internet, there seems to be lots of common knowledge and upgrades and the vast majority of people seem very happy with it. The X3 or even the X3 super would be my mill of choice but is well out of my price range for the foreseeable future. I understand what you are saying about tooling and I think I need to be patient - I couldn`t afford a new X2 and tooling, it will need to be a second hand X2 with tooling (at a price equivelent to new) or second hand machine only at around half price. Thanks for brining the issue of tooling up, it is certainly another factor I will need to consider.

Chris

bogstandard

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2009, 04:20:46 AM »
I understand where you are at Chris, and very few people have the readies available to get everything they want first off. So it is a matter of biding your time, saving a few more pennies, then get the items you really need. Almost everyone here has been in your situation, so it is nothing new for us to see you struggling with your decisions, we have been thru the same thing.

I am also glad you are using your lathe a lot more, rather than thinking of new ways to upgrade it. Once you know how to use it blindfold, then look at your original goal of what you want to use it for. Then you will have a much deeper understanding of it's limitations, only then will you know if it will do what you want it too.
You may laugh at the blindfold bit, but until you can safely use all the controls without looking for them (and not sticking your fingers into moving parts), you are still learning. I am just reaching that stage on my two new machines after eight months, and only then will I progress onto the next stage, which for me is single point screwcutting on my lathe, the mill I already have under my belt.

Rush it and you get a rushed finish to the job, take your time, and most jobs will end up perfect.

John

Offline Darren

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2009, 04:48:51 AM »
Hi Chris,
I sympathise with you,

What, where and how much are all obstacles we have to juggle, the latter often being the most difficult.

most of the time the wants are heavily outweighed by needs for non machine related parts of our lives.


That's why you see me playing with dead things  :lol:
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Offline greenie

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2009, 05:02:08 AM »
Chris, hate to upset you, but, that machine - Sealey SM2502 - is a bog standard Sieg X2, it's only that the sellers, are greedy bastards.
The SM 25 is just a Rong-FU 35 mill/drill, so that one is nothing special at all.
If you are going to buy an X2 NEW, then shop around for the BEST and CHEAPEST price that you can get it for, then with the money you save, you can then buy the extras for it.
Sieg have been around for years and ALL the machines that look like them, ARE SIEG X2's, even the ones in different coats/colours of paint' or different brands on them, they are all the same machine. It's only the resellers who get greedy and start to tell lies about how good their machines are, it's just all total bullshit.
There has been rumours that another chinese company, is now starting to knock out copies of Seig machines, I haven't actually got to see them yet, but rumours will persist, possibly someone knows a bit more about the copies.

But remember that an X2 is an X2, no matter what brand or colour it is, this has been authenticated by John Stevenson on another forum.

regards  greenie

Offline raynerd

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2009, 05:41:55 AM »
Cheers, Greenie
I thought the sm2502 looked very similar! I thought it must be different in some way to allow for the extra price tag. I have been offered a Sieg X2 brand new for £365 which seems a pretty good deal - yet the best I can do on the SM25 is £760 - that is incredible with the knowledge that they are identical machines.

As John was discussing above, at that sort of price £400, I would be able to afford the tooling - but then if I went second hand I run the risk of one of these little machines being run to the ground by previous owners. I`m in no immediate rush - I`ll keep browsing as my ideal would be a X2 mill on its own, second hand at roughly £200 and that would leave me with £200 for tooling at my own time. There is currently an X2 on ebay - but the seller hasn`t (and won`t!!) name the brand - he just keeps saying it is like the SM2502 and consequently, with three days to go it is already at £210... that would be the price I would be wanting to spend at the end and that is ignoring £50 petrol to go collect.

Offline Darren

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2009, 05:59:33 AM »
I'm confused  :scratch:

The seig x2 and the Sm25 are very different machines, if you can get a new 25 for £760 you are doing well.

Or am I missing something here http://www.pvrdirect.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?catref=SM25&gclid=CI_dx-X_s5oCFQuU7QodpzXCcA
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Offline Darren

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2009, 06:01:14 AM »
Oh, sorry I just got it, it's an SM2502 you are on about, ignore me  :doh:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline greenie

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2009, 07:02:32 AM »
I'm confused  :scratch:

The seig x2 and the Sm25 are very different machines, if you can get a new 25 for £760 you are doing well.

Or am I missing something here http://www.pvrdirect.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?catref=SM25&gclid=CI_dx-X_s5oCFQuU7QodpzXCcA

The SM 25 is just a RONG FU machine, do a google and see what comes up.
This machine is in the same boat as the X2, painted in different colours, with a different brand name, but it's still the same BLEEDIN machine.  It's called badge engineering, so the reseller can RIP you off, if you aren't aware, of what it is that they are selling you.
:lol:

http://www.rongfu.com/app?page=en_product-Bandsaw&service=external&sp=1&sp=5


Please take notice of the second photo, have a look for the different paint jobs on the exact SAME MACHINES,

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_lathe/Sieg/Sieg.htm

Now go and read page 5 of this lot.

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/Info/MiniMillUsersGuide.pdf

regards  greenie

Offline Darren

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2009, 07:10:42 AM »
The SM25 is not an X2, totally different machines...

The X2 is the same as a SM2502

And the SM25 is smaller than the SM30 or 31 as is now sold.

It's all very confusing.... :scratch:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2009, 09:34:30 AM »
Quote
This machine is in the same boat as the X2, painted in different colours, with a different brand name, but it's still the same BLEEDIN machine.  It's called badge engineering, so the reseller can RIP you off, if you aren't aware, of what it is that they are selling you.

Actually, you will find, even though the machines all look exactly the same and come from the same factory/factories, they are in fact built to customer requirements. That is why you get differing sizes of motors, beds, accessories, quality of bearings etc. Not so much with the X2, there are only subtle differences between retailers, but other models can have dramatic changes done to them.

For an example, have a look at the Chester Conquest.

http://www.chesteruk.net/store/conquest_mill.htm

Maybe only subtle differences, but not the same as run of the mill machines (excuse the pun), the most notable bit is the air strut, not standard on other suppliers machines. So what else is different?

With regards to other 'Sieg' based machines, why was Darrens lathe like a casting from hell while Chris's machine had a perfect bed?

One can only assume if they are being made in the same factory, they are being assembled and fitted out to customers requirements, that is if the customer wants to pay for a load of cheap crap, and sell them cheap, then he will get all the bad bits on his machines, someone who wants a better specced machine, pays the extra, gets a better build quality and passes the cost onto the customer.

With regards to cost from a supplier, if you noticed what I said to Chris about the Sealey mill, and how they are so much more expensive. They might only buy say 10 machines at a time, so have to pay a lot more than someone who buys a 100 machines. I am not supporting Sealey's prices, but would you sell them at a loss just to keep up with cheaper retailers? When you know you can shift 10 machines in say a year to people who don't go price shopping for everything they buy. Their big customers are most probably placing orders for thousands of pounds worth of tooling, and a few hundred squid here and there makes no difference to them, it is all passed onto their customers. That is why garages keep putting their prices up, you are paying for the upkeep of their workshops as well.

You actually have to look at every angle before shouting out that retailers are ripping us off.

Why can you buy a morse taper sleeve from one model engineering supplier for 3 squid when it might cost 6 from another?
It is all to do with the specifications of the item and how many were purchased from the manufacturer. That is why one mill costs 400 and another 700.


Bogs

Offline raynerd

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2009, 11:02:25 AM »
Just to go down another route - I have been reading a few posts on the net where people have recommended a Sieg XL1 super rather than X2 due to greater travel. Apparently not quite as suitable as the X2 for steel, but still is possible to machine with small cuts. So apparently larger travel and a cheaper price still - all though both Axminster and ArcEuro seem to be out of stock at present (and going back to the X2 - ArcEuro don`t sell them at all any more which concerns me)

Sorry, I know the questions are flowing again - but the repsonses have been excellent.

Chris

Offline raynerd

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2009, 03:06:58 AM »

.....in preverbial jest - "calm down, calm down" but that image won`t mean anything unless your from the UK!

sorry  :zap:

Just in fear of my previous question being lost - I am interested to hear your responses re: XL1 and X2.

Quote
Just to go down another route - I have been reading a few posts on the net where people have recommended a Sieg XL1 super rather than X2 due to greater travel. Apparently not quite as suitable as the X2 for steel, but still is possible to machine with small cuts. So apparently larger travel and a cheaper price still - all though both Axminster and ArcEuro seem to be out of stock at present (and going back to the X2 - ArcEuro don`t sell them at all any more which concerns me)

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2009, 09:53:59 AM »
Guys...

Written communication is much more difficult than verbal. There are parts of the process missing... body language, tone etc...

Please review what you write so it isn't taken badly by other people reading your posts.

Remember, while this board is a public club and anyone can join... It is privately owned and has rules. This board will remain civil.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Eric

Now, let's carry on with the modding!   :nrocks:
Science is fun.

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Offline raynerd

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2009, 08:16:23 AM »
Still a few hours to go on this one and already past my "hoping" price, now at £300 considering I can get a "brand new in box" X2 for £365.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=180354334679&Category=12584&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DI%26otn%3D2

Chris

Offline Darren

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2009, 08:55:16 AM »
Ebay is a funny place...

Some time ago I bought new items from a chain of shops in my local area, in fact I cleared each store out.

Ebay was quite useful at that time if I remember rightly.... :ddb:

Fools and their money comes to mind here..... :doh:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline CrewCab

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2009, 03:03:29 PM »
I can get a "brand new in box" X2 for £365.

and this used one went for £362 with little tooling, got to agree, a sensible price ought to be around about £225/£250 but ...........  ebay never ceases to amaze me .....  :bugeye:   ........ must go in the loft and find some crap treasured heirlooms to pass on to deserving ebayer's

Chris I bought one last year at the Harrogate show from SPG tools at a nad's below £300, he had some this year but they were dearer at £375, sorry that doesn't help you but I'll keep my eyes and ears open.

Might be worth talking to Simon at SPG, 07786 182 253, helpful guy, I have no connection other than being a satisfied customer btw.

CC

Offline matnewsholme

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2009, 03:27:41 PM »
Still a few hours to go on this one and already past my "hoping" price, now at £300 considering I can get a "brand new in box" X2 for £365.

Chris

I've got a two year old chester conquest I'd part with for £275 if its any use to you. Hasnt been turned on since I upgraded to an X3 a few months back and only had light use before that. I was going to keep it and convert it to cnc but too many projects on the go. Only problem is you'd have to collect from west yorkshire. Realise I could get more for it on ebay but dont want the hassle. :bang:

Matt

Offline raynerd

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2009, 04:06:22 PM »
PM sent to you!!!!

Yorkshire is nearer to me than most of those on ebay I have seen....


chris
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 04:11:39 PM by craynerd »

Offline CrewCab

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2009, 04:29:21 PM »
Yorkshire is nearer to me than most of those on ebay I have seen....

Chris ............. what part of the world are you in .......... I'm in West Yorkshire and we have a few other fairly local members, we may be able to help with transport ............... Pony MadModder express style  :thumbup:

CC

Offline raynerd

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2009, 04:33:49 PM »
Hi Guys

The great thing is that I am only in Manchester (Bury) so I presume (not always the best thing for me to do!!) that a conquest will get in the back of my Freelander without too much problemo and should only take me a couple of hours at most to get there!
Really appreciate the offer - now I know there are more local members I know where to call!!!  :thumbup:  :beer:

I just hope that I get a response - I think £275 seems a good price for a Conquest - I am curious to know if there is any tooling, extras or mods to the mill? Anyway - pm sent and as long as the offer still stands I think I`ll go ahead with this offer.

Chris

Offline CrewCab

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2009, 04:49:23 PM »
Bury to West Yorks .............. 2 hour round trip topside, X2 ..... you could fit three in the back of a Freelander with the seats still up  ::)

Good luck, shout up if you want any help

Dave

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2009, 05:47:54 PM »
If you can afford a freelander you can afford an X3................... :poke:

JS.
John Stevenson

Offline raynerd

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Re: Sieg X2 and Sealey Sm2502
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2009, 06:07:35 PM »
lol - the wife seems to think otherwise!  :(  Besides, you haven`t seen the condition of my freelander




 :doh: