Trust Old Files

[raynerd]

Just to raise this from the dead, and really of no interest to anyone, I just fancied a dance around  .

Some time ago I picked up a pack of 15-20 needle files in a dirty tight fitting box from about 2 years ago when I went to Harrogate for the first time. I don`t know which stand it was, it was just one of those boxes kicking around under the stands with a load of second hand stuff in. I think I gave no more than £10 for them, I`m really sure I paid less. Anyway, after paying £3.50 per file for my "best" ones, I`ve always used them. Anyway, just tidying up my workshop now and opened up that box of files again. Time to start dancing because I found that 2 or 3 of them aren`t stamped at all  , 4-5 of them are stamped Stubbs England , that gets one dancing icon  and literally 12 of them are stamped "Vallorbe"  -   

Nice thing is, most of them are different so I have a nice selection of quality files. 3 of the Vallorbe ones look to be escapement size as well

Right, enough gloating....couldn`t help it. I think the point has been enhanced by the fact I`ve been sitting on them for about 2 1/2 years! They all look in great nick, infact, they really look unused!

Chris

[Jonny]

Sounds a good buy if Vallorbe, mind you they went down the pan around 7 years ago, those certainly are older and irreplaceable quality items.

Just picked up this resurected thread, Stew that file on the left is a knife file and hard to get hold of and wont last long, used to go through one a week unless Swiss Vallorbe fine. I had to look very carefully i thought quite a few were mine at work especially riflers and the ground up ones either safe edge or concave one sided knife files for spring making. Your double half round wont cut very good even though look ok.

12" bastard we were only allowed one a week, no fun when theyre gone does your elbow joints in.

[DMIOM]

...........Right, enough gloating....couldn`t help it. I think the point has been enhanced by the fact I`ve been sitting on them for about 2 1/2 years! .......

Maybe they actually mature like fine wine! and maybe you can start a new niche investment business - if you've got the eye for them, the rate of return on such items is probably better than most banks 0.x% !

Sounds a good buy if Vallorbe, mind you they went down the pan around 7 years ago,.....

Jonny, if they were in trouble then they've been resurrected as I bought some Vallorbe files from MSC J&L only a couple of months ago.

Dave

[Stilldrillin]

http://www.electro-group.co.uk/files-vallorbe.htm

David D

[Davo J]

Hi,
Last year I went to a market and a lady had a box of old quality files (all thrown in together ) 50c each and a heap of old quality grease guns $1 each. I bought 2 grease guns and a few files and she said she just wanted to get rid of them all.
When I returned the next month she still had them all, so I offered $3 for the box of files which she gladly took.
It turned out her father died and she was just wanting to get rid of them as she had sold all the other gear.
Just in timber handles I got my money worth and some of the files are like new and in a range of sizes shapes, etc.
From memory they are mostly made in England and Australia. There was the odd few that someone had stirred paint with.

I don't mind filing sometimes, when I made my lathe extended D1-4 key to stop hitting my knuckles on the Chinese head stock,  I turned it down to shape in the lathe and then filed the squares while in the chuck. Nothing better than file fitted as it turned out spot on and looks as good as if it was milled. It would have taken a lot longer to setup the mill to do the 1 of job anyway.

My grandfather taught me at a young age how to file, but back then it was a chore because thats all I had, LOL.
Now it's just one of the tools I couldn't do without.

Dave

[Jonny]

Jonny, if they were in trouble then they've been resurrected as I bought some Vallorbe files from MSC J&L only a couple of months ago.

Misinterpretation, we used to buy from J&L by the box load, they had to order in as at last year. Should be interpreted as quality gone down the pan, same as all other files. What used to last weeks before showing signs of wear, as of late only lasts a few days.

[doubleboost]

I remember many years ago at technical colledge
We had to file a cube of steel 1 inch square then file a hole for it to fit (every way)
The files were all blunt  ,at dinner time i went to a engineering supplier and bought a few new ones
I got a bolloking of the teacher for not using the same files as the rest of the lads .
When i pointed to one of the lads using my files he shook my hand and laughed.
If he had seen me roughing the job out to within 25 thou with the angle grinder he would have laughet a lot more
John

[andyf]

On the subject of old files, I've heard it said that a dull file can have some life put back into it by immersing it in battery acid (sulphuric) or brick cleaning acid (hydrochloric). Has anyone tried it?

I've also heard that leaving a dull file out in the garden for a month or so to get a bit rusty can help. Never tried it myself, but an old file I found somewhere with a light coating of rust all over it still seems pretty sharp.

Andy

[Bluechip]

On the subject of old files, I've heard it said that a dull file can have some life put back into it by immersing it in battery acid (sulphuric) or brick cleaning acid (hydrochloric). Has anyone tried it?

I've also heard that leaving a dull file out in the garden for a month or so to get a bit rusty can help. Never tried it myself, but an old file I found somewhere with a light coating of rust all over it still seems pretty sharp.

Andy

It's called 'Re-generating'.
When I first started work, the firm I worked for did the production operatives files.
IIRC it's a mix of Nitric & Hydrochloric acid, very nasty but effective.

As an aside, if you get a file pinned with aluminium, you can clean the crap out by dunking it in a solution ordinary washing soda in water. ( Sodium Carbonate ). Just a good spoonful in about 1/2 pint or so. The ally will fizz and drop out. I'm not too keen on using wire brushes in single cut files.

BC

Some reference here ...

http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/general-discussion/resharpening-dull-files

Scroll down ... a fair bit ...

[raynerd]

What is the best way to clean little fine cut needle files? I`m only using them on brass and they never seem to clog but they do go a brassy colour which seems like it could do with cleaning out - just a brush?

Chris

[Jonny]

We had to file a cube of steel 1 inch square then file a hole for it to fit (every way)

Hope you were handed 2" square tool steel block complete with mill scale
Thats bad when you have to work with laser cut stuff on a hardenable steel to microns finished, too big to fit in the forge to anneal.

Hydrochloric i use to use for cleaning aluminium prior to anodising at 19%, drain cleaner is a very diluted form. It can bring some life back in to courser pitch files but they dont last very long. To give you some idea a brand new file may last 5 days, a rejuvenated one 1 to 2 days and wont take a second attempt.

[Anzaniste]

I alway think of Amazon as a book site but the sell magicut files, see here http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nicholson-Horse-Rasp-Magicut-14in/dp/B00002N7SH/ref=sr_1_1?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1312898905&sr=1-1.
They want to be good at that price.

[J Harp]

Use regular household vinegar to sharpen files, no need for the stronger acids which can be nasty to handle or breathe the fumes, some acids give off fumes which will rust any steel in your shop.  I use a length of PVC pipe with a cap on one end and a wire bail on the other. Suspend the file by jamming the tang in a hole in a small scrap of wood, and fill the container with vinegar to cover the teeth. leave the file in the vinegar from overnight to several days depending on  how dull it is. When removed from the vinegar the file will be covered by black junk, use a brass brush under hot running water to remove the black stuff, then dry the file with a towel, it will rust quickly if left damp. Use only a brass brush, a steel brush or file card will dull the file instantly.

If you are forgetful like me and leave the file in the vinegar for two weeks, it won't disappear, but it will certainly be sharp. Flea market or car boot files may need to be degreased before the vinegar treatment.

[ieezitin]

While searching came across this thread….

You don’t have to use nasty stuff like acid or horrible products to reclaim dull blunt files…… throw  them outside in the garden on the ground and let the rain and moisture do the rest, oxidation of the teeth microscopically removes sufficient amount of metal from the rounded edge of the tooth to render them sharp again.

I use rags to wrap my files and as someone mentioned earlier in this thread I colour code the ends..

Anthony….     

[SwarfnStuff]

Hi ieezitin,
Trouble is that downunder where I live we have had very little of the wet stuff lately. Good for the Solar panels but not for the garden or file sharpening. Oh Well, Vinegar is cheap and safe enough to drink (sort of ). Better if it is around pickled onions or similar though.

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

Jim's method (a couple of messages above) is the one I use.  My variation on it is to place the files in the oven at 250°F (120°C) to complete the drying process.  I then either coat them with mineral oil or chalk them thoroughly for storage (in leather sleeves in a closed box with silicate dehumidifying packs for the chalked files).  This works well here in western Washington State where our motto is, We don't tan, we rust!

[Henning]

Nice posts about files!

If there's anyone here ever done an apprenticeship in gunsmithing like i did, they would know their files like the back of their hands.
We had lessons...!

I can not add much to the great info already here, except that a file worn is an asset for other tools. Knives, for instance, or gravers or the like. 

And that Valorbe still make pretty good files, but the best i've ever had was from a Swedish maker named Øberg. Best files i've ever tried, i still have one from gunsmithing school.

[Jonny]

There has never been any schools for high class stuff, you learned the hard way in at the deep end. If couldn't hack it, you were out.

The last thing you want to do is oil a file.

Used to feel 3 square 12" bastards go off after 2 hrs, like tennis elbow on day three. Sheepishly ask for a new file the next week.
Recuts/acid etched and the like totally had it after 1/5 the time of a new one, this is after sorting and trying to find a good one. Some recuts look like they came back second cut while others looked fine but wouldn't cut, therefore not cost effective. For the recuts to work they have to have a relatively sharp edge already, in our case that would be at day 1, recut at that stage would last 3 hrs with 1 in 3 files scrap.

Had a fair few old Stubs they lasted and cut well.
Vallorbe 2nd cut went off around 2002 very good before then as was most hacksaw blades.



 

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

The last thing you want to do is oil a file.

If you live in an area with high humidity, oiling a file for storage if often absolutely necessary.  There are also operations where only a well-oiled file will work properly (such as doing the final finish burnish of zero-clearance hard piston for a slider-valve).  I will agree that in general you want to work with a dry (and chalked) file, but there are exceptions to that generality.

[Jonny]

Simple answer to that Lew is use the damn thing the rust will come off first push of the file. Wont make no odds when rust is in the cutouts, its the peaks as in cutting edges. End of the day its a tool and tools wear out.

Yes we did use oil on fine files, usually worn out three square 6" for finishing high class lock plates. Reduced pickup and glided across the steel barely doing anything. Personally better off with a fine wet and dry pulled tight where you can still remove high spots and blend in the lows, carefull on start edge it will round over.
Also brings up many antics "whos been using my file" "whos nicked my file an oiled it" We each had specific files only used for oil, new ones useless if oiled takes around 8 or 9 times the effort to achieve same unoiled cut.

[Alan Haisley]

The most important lesson my dad taught me about filing was to never drag the file back across the work. I've also found that forward motion without the right pressure to cut will speed dulling.

I never had a trade school or apprenticeship training in use of files and so wonder how many other concepts like this are so ingrained in all of you metalworkers that you don't even think to mention them.

Alan

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

I never had a trade school or apprenticeship training in use of files and so wonder how many other concepts like this are so ingrained in all of you metalworkers that you don't even think to mention them.

This falls under the knows the subject too well to teach it category.  I sharpen cutting edges (sufficient to impress US Navy SEAL teams) to a fair-thee-well and have been doing so since I was 8 years old.  I am probably the worst person in the world to attempt to teach another how to do this as it is reflex rather than considered action on my part.  I say this because, back in college, I was tapped to teach an industrial arts class on sharpening plane irons and was a miserable failure at the teaching part...

[vtsteam]

Not mentioned so far but I've found files often have a very slightly concave and a convex side not noticeable when filing small parts, but it definitely comes into play when flattening a larger area before hand scraping -- discovered that when building my lathe. Ideally they would be perfectly flat, but it is possible to make use of the slight difference in a curved file when filing. I grew to know which files, and which sides, did what, and sometimes used that to good effect.

[Manxmodder]

All of my bench files have a belly or slight curve to them. I seem to remember being told that all bench files are slightly curved in shape.....OZ.

[mattinker]

 

All of my bench files have a belly or slight curve to them. I seem to remember being told that all bench files are slightly curved in shape.....OZ.

I confirm, you cant file flat with a flat file!

Regards, Matthew.