Author Topic: Turcite from the far east  (Read 3922 times)

Offline HughF

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Turcite from the far east
« on: December 21, 2017, 09:50:06 AM »
As I alluded to in my emails after the scraping class, I have found a source of far eastern Turcite style way material. A sample is on order and will be here in the new year. Details as below:



Offline Pete.

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2017, 11:30:12 AM »
I'd like to try that out. What size sample did you get?

Offline HughF

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2017, 11:34:49 AM »
I'd like to try that out. What size sample did you get?

1m long, 2mm thick, 100mm wide, 27 delivered :)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 12:19:37 PM by HughF »

Offline Graham Stabler

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2017, 11:38:50 AM »
Has anyone checked price/availability of the "real" stuff in the UK:

http://www.bmts.co.uk/index.php/products/turnsite-b

If not I'll drop them a line in the new year anyway, my Feeler lathe needs doing.

I also see that slideway services have a variant called Marlon.

I guess my question would be how to know if the far east stuff in any good without long term testing?

Cheers,

Graham

Offline HughF

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2017, 12:16:28 PM »
Graham, I guess it all depends on hrs/year usage pattern. I'd be perfectly happy running asian stuff even if it had 30% lifespan compared to the real stuff as I probably use my machines 1hr/month and I'm a cheap bastard.... ymmv :)

Offline Graham Stabler

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2017, 12:51:30 PM »
Packing tape then :) Agreed, anything is probably fine but I'll use the proper stuff if it isn't mad expensive I think.

Graham

Offline HughF

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2017, 01:52:55 PM »
I have a feeling the proper stuff is mad expensive  over here, but cheaper in the states, standard procedure. If you want any, I'm in florida in February on holiday and can bring back...

Offline Pete.

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2017, 02:40:22 PM »
I'll use it. At the end of the day all you need is a low friction adherent material that resists oil.

Offline Pete.

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2017, 02:41:55 PM »

Offline Mover

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2017, 04:24:09 PM »
At those prices the Chinese stuff is worth a chance.

Offline j1312v

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2017, 03:14:16 AM »

100mmx1.5 @ 195.94 per m    :jaw:  ... I know they add way more more that 100%  to everything they resale, so take they prices as the most expensive option.
Hopefully Graham's supplier is not so expensive that will allow us to buy the real deal within the uk, otherwise better keep an eye on Hugh's far east "Turcite".

B

Offline Biggles

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2017, 01:24:30 PM »
Double jaw drop B!  :jaw:

Offline JHovel

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2017, 09:29:01 PM »
Wait till you see the price for the proper epoxy for PTFE materials! They REALLY sting the hip pocket....
Cheers,
Joe

Offline HughF

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2018, 03:50:11 AM »
The fake-a-cite has arrived, and apart from the included free gifts, appears to be half-way-decent. It looks like it has bronze in and has a side that is etched for taking glue.

If anybody wants an off-cut from this roll just PM me, I don't actually have anything I need to stick it onto yet.

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2018, 06:13:06 AM »
That looks pretty convincing...

I would love to try out a piece of the material, but mailing it to Finland would be excessive to you.

Did you got any mechanical properites. If not, can you test/measure/qualify the material any ways?

1: Do you have any instructions how to glue it? Can you test to glue a little piece of to steel with epoxy and report if it sticks and when you remove it where it delaminates?

2: How hard does it appears?

3: How much friction it appears to have under load? Does oil lubrication make it slide better?

4: Cold flow? Can you cut a stamp size piece, measure linear dimensions and thickness, put it under a load for few days and measure again? Pure teflon creeps like there is no tomorrow, fillers increase friction, but make it more resistant to cold flow.

Am I talking the same language? Mechanical properties p. 5 for pure teflon.
http://www.rjchase.com/ptfe_handbook.pdf

Pure teflon is pretty much unsuited for our purposes. It does not glue well, proverbial to use as a filler, cold flow, poor mechanical properties. Therefore there must be whole lot of fillers and other materials that define it's mechanical properties.

No need to make a science of it, just a quick test.

Like cold flow. The table says (for pure teflon): Deformation Under Load, 23 C granular 2% with 6.9 MPa (1000 psi). Epoxy matrix should make it much more resistant.
http://www.onlineconversion.com/pressure.htm
6.9 megapascal = 0.703 604 186 95 kilogram-force/square millimeter
6.9 megapascal = 70.360 418 695 kilogram-force/square centimeter
So, I would take any convenient weight estimate back the size of sample and see how much it sqashes under load.

I have a lathe that could benefit from this material. This lathe has generous surface area between ways and saddle I'm imagining that if it does not greep under 10 kg/cm2 load and it can take short time 70kg/cm2 load it will be ok. But if it cold flows while just staying there or under load it would not only be waste of time, but pretty hard to fix afterwards with 1-2 mm of materila missing from the saddle.

What I am thinking is what would be appropriate thickness. I'm thinking of 0,5 or 1,0 mm if is pretty hard and very flat I.E does not need machining to make it fit after glueing. Bit thicker than that if it needs grinding or such. Then again it might have sufficient amount of cold flow to compensate in most of the cases.

Pekka

Offline HughF

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2018, 06:52:02 AM »
Give me your address - sending a sample to finland is minimal cost.

edit: I can send pieces of this stuff with the postal service for around 3 internationally

Offline HughF

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2018, 07:16:58 AM »
Did you got any mechanical properites.

No datasheet was included
1: Do you have any instructions how to glue it? Can you test to glue a little piece of to steel with epoxy and report if it sticks and when you remove it where it delaminates?

I will glue it and see how it comes apart, no glue instructions were included
2: How hard does it appears?

It feels quite hard, it is tough to cut with a razor sharp knife
3: How much friction it appears to have under load? Does oil lubrication make it slide better?

It seems 'quite' slippery from just rubbing it up and down on my worktop whilst pressing hard on it
4: Cold flow? Can you cut a stamp size piece, measure linear dimensions and thickness, put it under a load for few days and measure again? Pure teflon creeps like there is no tomorrow, fillers increase friction, but make it more resistant to cold flow.

I can possibly do this, I have a 250t hydraulic press that might be suitable :)

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2018, 07:50:37 AM »
Testing - testing :zap: :beer: :headbang:

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2018, 02:11:03 PM »
Got some of it. Cuts nicely.

Wonder which side is the glue side? The one that has sor of grid? Looks etched.


Offline mattinker

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2018, 03:14:15 PM »
Got some of it. Cuts nicely.

Wonder which side is the glue side? The one that has sor of grid? Looks etched.



Time for a test! Which side is the glue side test!

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2018, 03:32:00 PM »
Not sure how this specimen is manufactured. I imagine that some are cast to thick slab and then skived to certain thickness.

The glue side must be prepared, ususally etched or it bonds badly. The sample I got has two little bit different sides...one that I suspect is the glue side.

I rumaged my suff but I didn't find any normal non filled epoxy. Shops are not open this hour, I have some time to procrastinate, before I need to try.

Also I have completely run out of small sample cups....I buy like 50 of them and now that my daugter has been making up some of her own make up and does whole lot of painting, the cups just disappear. Plenty of lids left. Mystery.

Pekka

Offline Pete.

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2018, 04:38:33 PM »
Pour water on it, it sticks to the side you glue, runs off the side you don't.


Well, on real Turcite it does anyway :D


Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2018, 05:09:11 AM »
Pour water on it, it sticks to the side you glue, runs off the side you don't.


Well, on real Turcite it does anyway :D

Why I didn't come to think of that? :Doh:

Thank you very much!

Glue side is the side I suspected. It looked "etched". But very good to have confirmation.

Offline Graham Stabler

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2018, 09:35:42 AM »

So I got some prices:

Turcite :  2.5mm x 200mm x 1 mtr . 465.00  + VAT
Price for adhesive   is 90.00 per pack + VAT

They didn't have a price list, said they would quote for a specific requirement and then gave a per m price anyway, go figure.

Graham

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Turcite from the far east
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2018, 12:38:33 PM »
That sounds a bit expensive to me for non professional use.

I got some two componenet epoxy, consumer brand. First I lapped the key stock reasonbly flat. Then I cleaned the key stock and 10*20 mm pieces of this bearing material with IPA, waited few minutes and mixed slow cure epoxy. I tried to get very thin even coat of epoxy.

I stacked over a granite surface plate: Baking sheet, glued bearing material under the key stock and wighted them down with two 1-2-3 blocks.

Let them cure overnight and then checked them. A little of the glue has extruded out but no dollops or runs.

The surface needed a quick go with 400 diamond plate, it was not even for testing. It has clear bronze sheen on it, but I did not got clearly on camera.

First when I tested it to granite surface plate I was a little disapointed. It has not stick like metal or really flat granite. It also has some friction.

Then I tested it on dry and lubricated cast iron micrometer foot. It needed a little work and lubricant before the stick-slip feel decreased. Interesting.

I used some thin parafin oil as a lubricant and then it had a very nice feel. It still worked well when I pressed it harder. Some black material (grphite?) came in oil suspension.

I cleaned both surfaces and tried again. It still seems pretty much ok when it is used dry.

Would need some serious testing, because it feels a little different depending on how well it is bedded, amount of oil, pressure and speed. Tried to figure standard way of measuring...would need a good spring scale and try it on lathe bed. Anyway, it feels like it works.

Did not try to scrape or grind it with a TCG yet.

Maybe next step would be to measure thickness and put some weight over it to see if it is likely to cold flow during use.

Pekka