Author Topic: Homemade layout fluid  (Read 1367 times)

Offline joshagrady

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Homemade layout fluid
« on: April 11, 2018, 12:20:32 PM »
Howdy.  It's been ages since I last posted, but work and personal issues have gotten in the way of playtime.

For those of you with easy access to Dykem, this will be a useless post, but for those who are either cheap, or live in the machining hinterlands, read on.

Being unsatisfied with the staying power of permanent marker ink, and being unwilling to pay the cost of a good bottle of wine for a tiny bottle of Dykem, we've been experimenting with homebrew solutions (pardon the pun).  It seems we've finally got a winner.

We filled a small jar with eythel alcohol, and added shellac flakes, swirling them around until the desired consistency was attained.  This mixture was left overnight to reflect upon its sins.  The next day the solution was restirred, and then a soupspoon of Prussian blue per 25cc of shellac mixture was added.  The end result has proven to be fast drying, easy to apply, and long lasting.  Among other tests, due to a phenomenally 'off day', I found that I had missed some critical layout marks by 2mm.  I ended up filling in the 10mm holes in 10mm plate with the MIG.  After welding, and grinding flat, I was still able to use the original marks, in the unaffected layout fluid, to properly drill the new holes.  We've also left a test piece soaking in cutting fluid for 30 minutes without altering the resistance of the dye.
Solvent will remove the dye quickly and easily, when necessary.

Offline russ57

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2018, 09:43:43 PM »
What form does the prussian blue come in, and where from?  In Australia a soupspoon would be 10ml, or thereabouts.




Russ


Offline sparky961

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2018, 11:17:13 PM »
Cool, but why waste the ethyl alcohol?  Would high test isopropyl or methyl not work just as well?

Now if only I knew where to get powdered Prussian blue and shellac flakes.... Sounds like a Dave Gingery sort of thing.

Offline Pete49

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2018, 12:34:16 AM »
I believe art supply stores may carry powdered prussian blue. None near me so can't verify.
oops..........oh no.........blast now I need to redo it

Offline Biggles

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2018, 01:24:35 AM »
Sounds like a winner, but i donít like wasting alcohol!

Offline RussellT

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2018, 04:48:35 AM »
Interesting.  What is the desired consistency? French polish is shellac in alcohol.  Could that save a step?

Russell

Offline timby

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2018, 04:58:17 AM »
When I worked in the machine tool industry long ago we used to make our own layout fluid.

In our stores there was a 10LB tin of Prussian blue powder and a bottle of  Methylated spirit  (Ethyl Alcohol).
We just mixed it up in an old jam jar until the mixture looked suitable, we did not use Shellac, I suspect that is just to make the mixture more durable.
More Methylated spirit  was added later when the fluid thickened due to evaporation.

White water based emulsion paint was also  used when marking out castings.

Scraping blue was made up from the same powder, oil was added instead of the  Methylated spirit and a flat Tin was used.

Prussian blue powder is available if you Google.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 06:55:39 AM by timby »

Offline gerritv

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2018, 07:59:11 AM »
Cool, but why waste the ethyl alcohol?  Would high test isopropyl or methyl not work just as well?

Now if only I knew where to get powdered Prussian blue and shellac flakes.... Sounds like a Dave Gingery sort of thing.

Curry's has Prussian Blue: https://www.currys.com/catalogpc.htm?Category=GAMBLIN_DRY_PIGMENT
LeeValley has shellac flakes.

I have a jar of methylene blue, might try that out and see if it works.

Offline AdeV

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2018, 05:00:53 PM »
Methylated spirit  (Ethyl Alcohol).

Actually, Methyl Alcohol aka methanol is Methylated Spirit. It's usually dyed purple and has a bittering agent to make it unpleasant to drink (given that it will kill you more readily than the proper stuff).

Ethyl alcohol aka beer, whisk[e]y, etc. (well, the active ingredient of) is the drinkable variety - although drinking from a chemist's bottle of "Ethyl Alcohol" is likely to be just as hazardous to your health as drinking Meths... several university students a year die of just such a mistake...

Isopropyl alcohol is yet another version. Unfortunately, unlike Andrew's school physics lessons (see the measuring thread), my chemistry lessons didn't stick and I can't remember what the difference is between the different alcohols.
Cheers!
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Offline JHovel

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2018, 12:40:28 PM »
Here in Australia, they had a lot of deaths in the depression and in the early post-war years from people drinking 'metho' with orange juice. Apparently, it overcame the terrible taste of the bittering agent.
As far as I know, all 'methylated spirits' in Australia is actually ethanol with bittering agents(and no drinking alcohol taxes), to avoid the horrible health issues and costs resulting from ignorantly/accidentally/deliberately drinking methanol.... Actual Methanol is now quite difficult to get hold of, except for lab use.
Cheers,
Joe

Offline joshagrady

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2018, 03:21:45 PM »
Cool, but why waste the ethyl alcohol?  Would high test isopropyl or methyl not work just as well?

Now if only I knew where to get powdered Prussian blue and shellac flakes.... Sounds like a Dave Gingery sort of thing.

We used what we had in the 'chemicals closet'.  I imagine that isopropyl would work fine.  In any event, I prefer my alcohol with the aftertaste derived from ageing in an oak barrels.  Straight up doesn't hold much appeal.

Gingery, no, although you're not far off.  Connelly makes reference to using shellac flakes with Prussian blue and alcohol.  Truly there's nothing new under the sun.

What form does the prussian blue come in, and where from?  In Australia a soupspoon would be 10ml, or thereabouts.




Russ



No idea about Oz.  In Spain we still have a few 'droguerias' -- drug stores (but not pharmacy/chemist's) that sell a strange, atavistic, mix of art supplies, household cleaning products, and chemical compounds.  The powered Prussian blue was ~Ä20 for 100g. 

Offline SwarfnStuff

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2018, 02:25:19 AM »
Joe,
    I think you just answered my riddle of why, "Metho" doesn't smell anything like my snoz remembers.  :scratch:
    Although it could be that Pyridine is no longer used as the denaturing component for OH&S reasons. Or both.
    Either way the new stuff don't smell right.  :lol:

John B
Converting good metal into swarf sometimes ending up with something useful. ;-)

Offline russ57

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2018, 06:18:43 AM »
Joe,
    I think you just answered my riddle of why, "Metho" doesn't smell anything like my snoz remembers.  :scratch:
    Although it could be that Pyridine is no longer used as the denaturing component for OH&S reasons. Or both.
    Either way the new stuff don't smell right. 

John B
I'd always believed that Oz 'metho' was ethanol with a dash of methanol as the bittering agent... Literally, spirits that had been methylated.. Amazing how things, and memories, change...


Russ
Update...
Some interesting reading later, and it used to be as I remember. But since the methyl bit was poisonous, and people drank it anyway, the methanol was replaced with water and various bittering agents.
So, now claimed as non-toxic.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 06:53:24 AM by russ57 »

Offline Will_D

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2018, 06:12:39 AM »
Interesting thread this.

Any idea of what the red pigment is in Dykem Red (or Yellow)?
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Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2018, 06:57:43 AM »
Here we are pampered with two choices of shops to buy pigmets: Arts suplly shops...got 100g and they said I shoudl gring it finer. Traditional pain's and recepies are coming back into fashion and anything "non artificial" (no matter how artificial it really is as long as name and pagaging looks old) is in fashion big time. Next village of few thousand inhabitants has a paint shop that sells shellak, pigments, color paste, oils, solvents....

Pigments of any color...I suspect blue and yellow/orange/red would contrast.

Now I only need stock up and find the freaking ethanol or methanol, which are pretty much unobnanium except in industrial, pharmaseutical, or food industry. Some sort of ethanol is in windshield washer liquid, that has either -20C or -40C rating, last one sounds closer, but is it good enough for this use?

Pekka

Offline russ57

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2018, 07:12:16 AM »
you dont have any methylated spirits, or denatured alcohol, or isopropol alcohol?
if you could find ready mixed shellac, adding the pigment to that would work i reckon, https://madmodder.net/Smileys/default/laie_14.gif though it would be a bit thicker than ideal maybe..

russ

Offline tom osselton

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2018, 01:57:07 PM »
Interesting thread this.

Any idea of what the red pigment is in Dykem Red (or Yellow)?

In some of the older books I have they talk about using Dragons blood for pigments.

Offline sparky961

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2018, 03:47:41 PM »
In some of the older books I have they talk about using Dragons blood for pigments.

I've bled enough on some parts that I could have scribed lines in it.  But I'm hardly a dragon... except first thing in the morning before coffee.

Offline Will_D

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2018, 06:04:34 PM »
Ok, So I put on my chemists hat and thanks to Wikipedia (overcomes Alzheimer's always) Prussian blue is actually Iron(II,III) hexacyanoferrate(II,III).

So any other prettily coloured cyanoferate or dichromate  complexes would do.

Will they be toxic? Don't know just don't eat!!

BTW: PB IS a very useful "antidote for certain kinds of heavy metal poisoning"
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Offline joshagrady

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2018, 04:34:26 PM »
In some of the older books I have they talk about using Dragons blood for pigments.
Dragon's blood, at least in Spain, is the sap of a type of palm tree.  We use it to dye shellac and putty to match the tones of certain tropical woods.
In my experience, virgins are currently harder to find than dragons.  YMMV  :lol:

Offline awemawson

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2018, 05:06:27 PM »
Does anyone use copper sulphate these days for layout? A solution of copper sulphate pretty instantly deposits  a thin layer of copper onto clean steel which shows scribed marks nicely and is extremely durable,

Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Online philf

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2018, 05:30:06 PM »
Andrew,

That brings back memories of the training school at Mullard Blackburn in about 1970. I've not used any since - probably because I haven't had any.

Broad felt tip pens work nicely for me.

Phil.
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Offline AdeV

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2018, 06:05:14 PM »
Does anyone use copper sulphate these days for layout? A solution of copper sulphate pretty instantly deposits  a thin layer of copper onto clean steel which shows scribed marks nicely and is extremely durable,

Interesting idea.... I have some copper, and some sulphuric acid, so I reckon I could make some copper sulphate easily enough...

I have a book somewhere which explains, in some detail, how to grow fancy crystals such as copper sulphate. It wouldn't be allowed these days, H&S, kids near acid? Jumpers for goalposts?
Cheers!
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Offline awemawson

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2018, 02:27:08 AM »
Copper sulphate is readily available on eBay (I just checked) it's not even very expensive. I keep about a kilo in stock for the odd copper plating job.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Homemade layout fluid
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2018, 09:53:57 AM »
Bordeaux Mixture for fruit trees?

Copper Sulphate, lime and water?

Used it on my Apple PC and there isn't a virus left :lol:

Norm