Author Topic: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.  (Read 6981 times)

Offline PTsideshow

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Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« on: May 27, 2009, 06:54:47 PM »
Heads up people here comes the part about we aren't going to tax the little guy! :bugeye:
Our Government is planning on helping Us here in the US with a 25% V.A.T. and possible national sales tax. Along the $3,000 to $4,000 from  the Cap and Trade carbon use fees. That will add to the utility costs for any carbon burning generating plant household. And that is each household.

They have a Senator that is saying that we need to join the rest of the world in having a Value added tax on all goods and services. Around 25% should be good to start. It will be another case of "We are from the government, and we are here to help you"! They are trying to figure out how to get it by the tax payers before we know about it  :doh:

Man they wanted change and they are getting it  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Man I love my country, buy fear my government!
glen
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
Raise the Dead!
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glen

Offline PTsideshow

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"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
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Raise the Dead!
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and I'm working on the first two!
glen

Online John Hill

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2009, 11:34:58 PM »
Relax guys!  I dont know if such a thing will come to pass or not but I do know a 25% VAT, GST, or whatever is a very high rate.

Now the thing about such consumption taxes is that properly implemented they work very well.  Everybody pays the tax,  it does not effect savings, it is almost impossible to avoid and best of all the administrative overheads are very low.

Here in New Zealand we have had GST for a couple of decades and in the same time have scrapped almost all other taxes except income tax.  We have almost no sales tax (maybe none at all) and very little in the way of duty on anything imported, we do however still have excise taxes on petrol, alcohol and tobacco.

Collection is easy, everyone who is in any business just calculates 12.5% of what they get in and subtract from that 12.5% of their outgoings and the difference they give the tax man.  The end user is the one who actually pays.   

Unlike other taxes consumption taxes are difficult to avoid  so everyone pays and there is no huge beurocracy to administer the collection of it.

OK, I would rather we had no taxes at all but GST is a HUGE improvement on what I remember went before.


John
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Offline Darren

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2009, 03:35:45 AM »
in the UK VAT is considered a curse, currently at 15%, was recently 17.5% but they drooped it to help boost the economy,  :lol: :lol: :lol: it's a joke. But will go up to an even higher rate later.

Personally I think the whole thing was engineered in order to raise tax in the long term without public backlash.

It's not only costs everyone, but those who collect it are burdened with the job of the paperwork which just adds to the workload for free.

Most businesses try to avoid it like the plague but it's not easy. It can also land small businesses in a lot of hot water if they don't keep an eye on the earnings threashold.

Some have even lost their businesses and homes over it....

I wouldn't call it a good thing at all. Not if you are self employed at any rate.
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Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2009, 06:16:15 AM »
That may all be true, but in addition to they also want to raise the national tax on beer/wine and other beverages. Add  another layer of tobacco tax. Start charging for miles driven in addition to the gas tax. They love the so called fat tax! a tax on sugar and fat in soft drinks and junk food. in addition to all the others I mentioned.

In the US it seems that, that they talk about doing away with a tax or fee. But never seem to come to do it. With the housing prices dropping like a rock, you would think that the local and state property taxes would drop. The housing prices fell in our area, the property taxes went up. When they nailed a local government operative they said they had to change it, because they have an state of emergency.

I think we are in for a whole lot of "Depends on what your definition of is, Is"
glen
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
Raise the Dead!
        Walk on water!
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and I'm working on the first two!
glen

Offline SPiN Racing

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2009, 07:45:39 AM »
The funny thing about the US... we never really loose taxes... they just get lower for a bit.. people get happy, then it creeps right back up past where it was.. and everyone says.. Ohhh its only a little bit worse than last year.

This continues..   When it gets too high, they figure a way to tax you in a different direction for the same thing. The fact we have a whole carer field of Tax attourneys is just frightening... That we need to have a herd of lawyers to decipher exactly what you CAN do.


An example? My best friend Sued the IRS three times. THREE. And won all three times... That makes me nervous. One that he was sharp enough as a civilian, non-lawyer, non-accountant, helicopter pilot to do that.. And Two.. they made mistakes and he caught it.
SPiN Racing

Offline Bernd

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2009, 09:12:32 AM »
Sounds like we might need a world wide Boston Tea party.

Bernd
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bogstandard

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2009, 09:30:23 AM »
The way to look at tax is using a coin for an example.

Almost every time a coin changes hands, it is subject to some sort of tax. It can be income taxes, local taxes, purchase taxes, VAT etc.

During it's lifetime, how much tax does that individual coin raise for the government? I reckon a few million at least, if not a lot more.

The only way around it is to go back to the barter system, as there is no way a goverment can store perishable goods in large volumes. Eggs and bread can't be moved around like digital cash.

When do we start.

John

Offline Darren

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2009, 09:40:30 AM »
Now....

Well, we already do....swapsies and gifts...... :ddb:
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2009, 09:45:29 AM »
The only way around it is to go back to the barter system, as there is no way a goverment can store perishable goods in large volumes. Eggs and bread can't be moved around like digital cash.

John

John,

I think a lot of people over here would starve to death. Especially those that only know how to use an I-phone to find their butt hole. :lol:

Bernd
You can't fix "STUPID".

Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2009, 12:52:56 PM »
Now I know why they made those mad max movies! to get us ready to go back to the good old days.

Quote
I think a lot of people over here would starve to death. Especially those that only know how to use an I-phone

That is the sorry truth, All my adult life at work or home people are always so amazed with what I know and can do. When they ask how do you do it. My stock answer is I can read, and there are so many interesting books out there, and there is so little time!  :lol: :lol: I'm sure you guys get the same thing.

It never stops amazing me with the reaction to my library, or tools. When a teacher told me after they seen my library. Man I haven't read a complete book since college.  :doh:

Or the number of times one of my kids teachers, told them to quite lying because your father can't do that. Or that I had taken 5 year old's on balloon flights and chase and recovery trips. Or the people they met with me at Circus's, or other events I did.
It got to the point I had to go to the superintendent of the system, And have them send the principal and union head to my house so I could stop the teachers harassment of my kids and their projects.

Of course it helped that I worked in the a different educational system, and new that most will back down when they are wrong and stupid to boot! Plus the superintendent came too and when all 12 books the teachers said didn't exist were on the table. and the photo's et all the problems just stopped and every teacher had to apologies to my kids in the classroom of students. That was the superintendents idea, as she said to reinforce the lesson for the teachers  :lol: :lol: :lol:

It does show on some forums and boards that we as an enlightened civilized world are in trouble with some of  nit wits out there and still breathing.  :borg:

I've got some good stuff in my material stash. So as Bogs stated I'm ready to barter!  :thumbup:
glen
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
Raise the Dead!
        Walk on water!
                 Fix a broken heart!
and I'm working on the first two!
glen

Offline Bernd

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2009, 04:15:58 PM »
Glen,

I have to admit that when I first signed on this forum I thought you were a bit eccentric with all the books you posted in the "Bookshelf". I thought "Is this guy nuts or what". But you are 100% right. People don't read books any more. I've noticed some of the younger crowd is fast to ask for a "link" to info. I'm sure they're dissapointed when you point them to a book.

I've also run across what you have said about people when they ask "how did you do that" or "that's impossible to do" and then when you show them or explain they look at you all dumbfounded.

So I say the same thing I'm ready to barter to. Knowledge is a wonderful tool against the dumbies out there.

Bernd

Just went and checked the Bookshelve and you have about 220 books listed. Now that's a large sum of info to have.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 04:23:09 PM by Bernd »
You can't fix "STUPID".

bogstandard

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2009, 05:35:38 PM »
I have to plead ignorant when it comes to modern day books, I think the youngest one in my engineering ones is from the 70's, but a lot from the 30's & 40's. Picked up over the years and from car boot sales costing a few pennies each.

If I want to read modern day, what I call 'garbage' engineering, then I will look it up on the web. That is because it relies too much on modern day whatzits and whirlygigs with bells on. I do admit to using such items, but if you haven't got them, what do you do?

That is why I read old books, they give you the old techniques before all the modern day gizmo's came along, and that is one of the reasons I have little trouble machining difficult jobs. It becomes second nature to always go back to the roots of engineering.

Anyone who lives fairly local is welcome to borrow a few old books to read, just leave a couple of fingers as deposits for their safe return.

John

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2009, 06:08:41 PM »
Glen, the thing about an effective consumption tax such as VAT is that it applies to everyone and everything and to gain full advantage all other taxes should be scrapped.  Then you are left with a system which has very low administrative overheads, requires very little enforcement and not much opportunity for cheats.
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Offline Darren

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2009, 06:23:49 PM »
Yes I agree, in an ideal world that would work.

Trouble is we don't live in such and VAT is just another tax on the hundreds already stealing from us.

The government is the biggest earner in any transaction, even if no tax is applied for the money will end up being spent on a taxable item soon enough. The trick is how many transactions you can make before that happens. In reality not many if any at all.

Oh course it's low cost to implement, they get us fools to do all the work for them for free. makes you feel like a right mug.

I once read that if you took away the taxes you only needed 11 pence in the pound, I believe today it's become less.

Petroleum companies, as rich as they are, get less than 1p per ltr, I wonder who gets the other 109 pence ?

Then they tax us for not being green, hogwash, just more profits.
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Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2009, 06:42:37 PM »
Glen, the thing about an effective consumption tax such as VAT is that it applies to everyone and everything and to gain full advantage all other taxes should be scrapped.  Then you are left with a system which has very low administrative overheads, requires very little enforcement and not much opportunity for cheats.

The only problem I have is that they tend to lie and then blame the other party or start something else up as misdirection. They won't remove the income tax,and it makes no difference which of the parties you are talking about.
There is the worst of the worst demon party operative that was referred to as Clinton's pit bull. He would lie and make something up about any Repub at a drop of a hat. He is married to one of the repub's top operative's that worked in the Bush's white house.
When they are asked about it when they were on a show together, they both said its not a problem or conflict of interest as party politics is separate than real life. So that says a whole lot to me! its a dupe the public game.

And they never will remove the income tax as they have said it the VAT should only be used to only pay for the universal health care in the US. And it should start at 25%. So I'm thinking that they will never change the income tax.
And they are trying to refer to the VAT as a national sales tax today on some of the stuff I read and heard.

Plus to hear them right now the N Korean deal is going to turn into another full blown confrontation.(the current misdirection) and since we have a defense treaty with S Korea we will have to do something. Which will be what the last 5 or 6 presidents did is give him more money and Johnny Walker red Scotch.  :bang:

So is a good deal for you, will just become away for Washington and soon to follow the States. A way to double dip in to the tax papers pocket. :(
But that's the way it goes,
glen
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
Raise the Dead!
        Walk on water!
                 Fix a broken heart!
and I'm working on the first two!
glen

Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2009, 07:02:52 PM »
Glen,

I have to admit that when I first signed on this forum I thought you were a bit eccentric with all the books you posted in the "Bookshelf". I thought "Is this guy nuts or what". But you are 100% right. People don't read books any more.

Just went and checked the Bookshelve and you have about 220 books listed. Now that's a large sum of info to have.

Well that's not all of them. I think in total counting the collections of books on caving and potholing, full size steam, and model steam, circus, outdoor amusement business, magic, clowning, and props, sign painting, jewelry and the metal arts. I think the total is knocking on close to 3,000 plus books. I only have posted stuff with a wide general interest. Very little fiction other than Science Fiction,from my miss spent youth. How to's, history and  single subject type books.
I was posting ship and modeling books on the two big model boat sites but, due to other issues have gotten behind.

But you got to love the used bookstore and remainder sale sites. Plus I have been collecting books for 50 years. My wife says "That I have never met a book I didn't like!"  :lol: :lol: and she not far wrong There are very few books that I have not held once I bought them!

And to answer your question in the above quote I prefer the term Eccentric!  :clap: :ddb:
glen
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
Raise the Dead!
        Walk on water!
                 Fix a broken heart!
and I'm working on the first two!
glen

Online John Hill

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2009, 07:10:11 PM »
No matter what the country Glen changes to taxation are always times of stress and raised voices!

We still have income tax, but my rate is about 1/3rd of what it was pre-GST.  Some adjustments take some time, for example people who paid (in our case) 60% sales tax on a new car tend to get grumpy when the tax is taken off and the value of their posession drops accordingly, but these things can be got around the end  result is better and fairer taxation overall, or at least it was for us.

25% is a huge consumption tax to fund health, ours is 12.5% and our health is funded (not to everyone's satisfaction) plus we have reasonably generous (some say too generous) health and universal pension schemes.

I can only think if 25% is really being considered they are expecting a lot of exemptions, in Australia (and I may be corrected on this) raw meat does not attract GST but cooked meat does, or is it cut meat?  There is the daft situtation in Oz that if you buy a cooked chicken from the supermarket  and a loaf of bread  there would be no GST, but if the chicken was still hot there would be GST on the chicken because that is 'ready to eat', a chicken sandwhich always attracts GST.      Administration of such a system destroys all the "advantages" of GST/VAT.

For most of us tax is an unavoidable evil but if we have to have a tax system a uniform, no exemptions, no exceptions consumption tax is the fairest and most effective and efficient as well.

Of course you dont have to pay income tax in North Korea (which I visited late last century) and health care there is free too.    But I suggest not to get too concerned about North Korea.  Regarding the last few US Presidents and North Korea, well just let me say that is a very interesting subject with more players than one might think, well worth the study which should cover the period from about 1905.
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Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2009, 11:38:14 PM »
They are talking no exemptions, and since they are hedging their bets with the recurring use of National sales tax wording. It sounds like they are going to go for every penny they can.

An I understand about N Korea, but they have trotted out the current  Army Chief General Casey 4 hours ago Army chief: US able to fight N Korea if necessary

WASHINGTON — The United States could fight an old-fashioned war against North Korea if necessary, even while newer forms of conflict against terrorists and extremists continue, the Army's top officer said Thursday.

Asked whether the United States would be prepared to fight if war broke out between South Korea and North Korea, Gen. George Casey replied, "The short answer is yes," then added that "it would probably take us a little bit longer to shift gears" away from the type of counterinsurgency fighting that now occupies the Army.

He also said this further into the story:
Casey, the Army's chief of staff, suggested that war with the nuclear-armed North might not be the old-style land war that U.S. forces stationed in South Korea were envisioned to fight. He did not elaborate, but he was presumably referring to the possibility that the North might use or threaten to use its proven nuclear capability.

So they have their miss direction in place when the boys and girls get back to Washington to serve their self interests..... :doh: I mean the interest of the people  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Good night Gracie where ever you are!
glen
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
Raise the Dead!
        Walk on water!
                 Fix a broken heart!
and I'm working on the first two!
glen

Online John Hill

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2009, 12:01:37 AM »
Glen, no exemptions is good (if anything about a tax can be good) in that it indicates a fair chance of a sucessful system free from cheats and burdensome overheads,  25% is really high though,  I dont think I have ever heard of such a rate.

Anyone considering a military adventure in North Korea should bear in mind that they have been digging in for 50 years,  almost all citizens have access to air raid shelters some of which are very deep.  There are so many tunnels under Pyongyang that it must be like a swiss cheese down there.  Another thing to bear in mind is that they have a considerable number (I have seen an estimate of 2000) artillery pieces individually dugin within range of Seoul,  presumably if hostilities were declared each gun would continue firing until the ammunition is exhausted or the gun destroyed.

On the other hand, if North Korea military stepped out to attack anyone they quite likely would not need to take their lunch with them.

Precis: They are not likely to attack anyone but will put up a hell of a fight if anyone attacks them.  In my humble opinion of course.

Oh, and what ground does anyone think the US would have to attack the DPRK?
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Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2009, 06:23:25 AM »
Quote
Oh, and what ground does anyone think the US would have to attack the DPRK?
Don't have a clue!
glen
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
Raise the Dead!
        Walk on water!
                 Fix a broken heart!
and I'm working on the first two!
glen

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Re: Heads up a 25% V.A.T. coming our way in the US.
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2009, 08:59:40 PM »
Quote
Oh, and what ground does anyone think the US would have to attack the DPRK?
Don't have a clue!
glen

So there we have it folks.  The Northe Koreans have a very strong defensive position but very little offensive capability but as not even the US would want to invade them we can relax sure in the knowledge that nothing is actually going to happen.
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