Author Topic: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill  (Read 1713 times)

Offline PekkaNF

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Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« on: August 02, 2018, 05:57:55 PM »
Bought the mill and thinkking appropriate stand/table/toolchest for it.

There are some sheet metals stands, but they have limited storage quality.

Toolchest would have excelent storage quality, but needs external support for the mill (dry weight around 300 kg). Wondering if the swarf and such would find easily it's way into drawers. My first instinct is to make separate skeleton stand that supports the machine and toolchest can be rolled uder it it or out. But 70 kg tool chest would add pretty nice torsional stiffness to simple table structure.

Any good ideas or pointers?

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2018, 11:28:45 PM »
Pekka is it the round column kind?  I have that type (Enco brand).

It has a sheet metal cabinet under, with a door. Not very useful.

It seems to me that swarf wouldn't get into drawers unless you leave them open while milling.

Same as for a benchtop lathe. I have forgotten with my lathe on occasion, so yes it does happen. But my shop is so tiny that there is no other storage solution. And I haven't made that mistake often. It just forces you to clean out your drawer more often -- which isn't a bad thing.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2018, 01:24:21 AM »
Thank you

Yes, it is round column type, figured I need more drilling than milling machine on that size (300 kg, pretty light weight)
https://www.warco.co.uk/milling-machines/36-major-milling-drilling-machine.html



I'll plan tool chest underneath it. I need to get, then I have exact dimenssions: size of tray and mounting holes.

Pekka

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2018, 07:37:03 AM »
Pekka, I like mine. Especially since I made 3 single tooth carbide insert mills for it. Particularly often used is my big diameter fly cutter with an R8 spindle. It's in very frequent use for surfacing castings. The other two are 7/8"mills - one with a square insert as an end mill, and one with a big radius insert for surfacing smaller pieces and edges.

While I've seen many add-on devices and tricks for returning the round column type mills to a previous position after raising it by the crank, I think the best method was in a youtube video where the user just positioned a magnetic indicator to the  table and against the quill, set it to zero, and after raising, returned it to zero again. Simple, sure and effective. Every other device or method I've seen has a greater error.
.
To make raising less of a chore also, buy yourself a breaker bar, and a socket to fit the column clamp nuts, and just keep that dedicated for that purpose only at the back of the mill within easy reach.

Another crescent wrench to fit the collet tightening nut is also handy to keep near. Finally, a skate ball bearing on the end of some drill rod to fit is a handy center finder, and useful in squaring up the mill vise, too. I also stuck a cheap calculator onto the front of the belt guard. It comes in very handy when figuring hole spacing, center deductions, etc.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline PK

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2018, 08:36:42 AM »
Best trick for a round column mill I ever saw was a laser pointer on the head pointing at the far wall.
Column was vertical and there was a vertical line on the wall...
Neat and well and truly accurate enough...

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2018, 08:50:57 AM »
I thought the same thing, PK, but with further reading most who actually have tried that found it both inaccurate (several thou off) and inconvenient.

Here are two videos contrasting the indicator method and the laser pointer method.

Most people who also have constructed mechanical guide devices find an error of several thou. I haven't seen anything which looks as simple, or is as accurate as the indicator method.

indicator:


laser:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2018, 12:45:14 PM »
Thank you

I have been reading long time about the round column vs. dovetail column mill conondrum.

Phenomenon is true and relevant.

Most views seem to be somewhat flawed. This is actually pretty analytical and incidently it is "same" mill that I have:


beef is here (long tool priciple), the video is long, and he is explaining several things there
https://youtu.be/wy9N-jg1AE0?t=487

Ok, it is all about drilling and this type machine is primarly drill, that has a spindle that is capable for limited milling. I saw one at one gunshop and the owner told me how he used it and what are the limitations.

Why I did't get dove tail or knee (often coned VMC or 3/4 size) mill?
- limited spindle stroke on small knee type mill VMC (130mm vs, 89mm)
- Dovetail table mills seem to suffer from weak pilar (thin casting, open on back, some sheet metal might make them look bulkier)
- not big fan of cheap gear drive, I actually spens some time in a romme where one was used and I tried it too...I don't have a decibel value to put or put my finger to it....it just sounds and feels bad. I feel that belt drive gives me greater flexibility. Most likely have to change the motor at one point.
- smaller mill/drils have a DC motor and plastic gears, I really don't like them

But, If I could just drive locally somewhere and load RF-45 into van, I probably would be just as happy.

I am thinkking now the size and depth of the tray under the machine.

Pretty conviced I'll find reasonable size tool chest or drawer module under the mill table.

Pekka

Offline chipenter

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2018, 02:46:26 PM »
I have a Warco minor and the club has a major both on stands made from 2" box steel , no drawers underneath but open plastic storage boxes and are swarf free so far .
Jeff

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2018, 03:05:55 PM »
I have a Warco minor and the club has a major both on stands made from 2" box steel , no drawers underneath but open plastic storage boxes and are swarf free so far .

How is the club Major stand in practical use? Does it has a swarf tray?

Offline chipenter

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2018, 03:18:13 PM »
Yes it has the Warco tray on a 19mm ply top , the top overhangs the frame by 75mm , still to rig up coolant for the Major but I use mist on mine as it has no tray , the Major has no drain to the table yet just a mater of drilling and taping for a hose connector .
Jeff

Offline PekkaNF

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Offline vtsteam

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2018, 09:17:26 PM »
That looks very nice, Pekka. Wish I had that.  :thumbup:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2018, 03:13:47 AM »
I am getting older and learned that machine base is pretty importat. When I got my first lathe I just lifted it onto table and used it. Not ideal.

Now, I need to plan a little ahead or I would just goblle together something when it arrives and then probably leave it there to annoy me for next 10 years.

Pekka

Online awemawson

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2018, 03:36:13 AM »
Don't forget 'Toe Space'. When you are standing in front of a machine for any length of  time it gets mighty uncomfortable unless your toes can go under, otherwise you are too far back and end up with back ache from leaning over.


. . . . or maybe it's just me with my size 13 feet  :scratch:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2018, 06:34:22 AM »
No, it's not only you!

I am 178 cm tall (5'10") and I have noticed the same...however this mill has hand crank sticking out and on milling machines you are hardly never at straight front of the machine, that is consideration - least for front side of the table.

Pekka

Offline BillTodd

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Bill

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2018, 06:10:35 PM »
Thank you Bill. Those were good links. You have done excelent work.

 I have seen the wishbone stabilizer long time ago and I like the idea. However it does not look very straightforward get it "perfect". You state "better than +/- 10thou" for radial accuracy , which translates +/-0,254 mm, sounds reasonable for drilling.

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/uncategorised-metalworking-machines/70099-wishbone-stabiliser-round-post-drill-mill-4.html

I really don't know yet if this loss of register is real problem to me or not.

Pekka

Offline chipenter

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2018, 01:50:58 AM »
I have only had a problem with large mt drills after a pilot hole just takes a little longer to get it right , or just bolt the rack to the column .
Jeff

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2018, 05:19:44 AM »
[quote author=PekkaNF link=topic=12667.msg151382#msg151382 date=1533420635

 I have seen the wishbone stabilizer long time ago and I like the idea. However it does not look very straightforward get it "perfect". You state "better than +/- 10thou" for radial accuracy , which translates +/-0,254 mm, sounds reasonable for drilling.

Pekka
[/quote]

If I were to remake it, I would place the upper and lower pivots in front of or behind the post , so that they could be linked by a straight rod . That way ,as long as the arms are all the same length it track accurately. The one i built was too adjustable.


In use , the verticle alignment was always good enough for drilling . the machines are not really rigid enough for accurate milling without a great deal of care.

if you use er collets , the spindle brake is indispensable.
 
Bill

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2018, 06:17:13 AM »
Thank you Bill, good information!

I am tempred to consider that wishbone stabilizer.

I saw that spidle brake on your video.

I have ER collets and arbors, I use dedicated spanner to hold the arbor and ER-key to use them. I use many of them on lathe tail stock too, both have MT3 taper.

I have a lot MT3 taper tooling, most of it M12 thread, few 3/8" Whit and many tang end drills.

This brings me to drawbar tooling ejection. My current machine has plain taper bearings and giving a whak to it fine, but this mill has rolling bearings and I really dislike idea of brinneling the bearings. I have seen some differential thread or retainers to make it possible to use drawbar to release the taper from spindle. Looks like there is enough meat at the end of spindle for thread (differential thread or bushing to retain the drawbar).

The threaded retainer bushing would be very straightforward if I only would use tooling without tangs, but drills tend to have tangs.

Have to see first which tooling is essential, count them, check drabar thread and "gage length" and then I can make educated guess.

Pekka

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2018, 08:01:31 AM »
Yeah, ejecting a morse taper is a PITA. (even the R8 is annoying). Not doing it up too tight helps.

I had a quick look at an ejector mechanism; the biggest pain is having to thread or otherwise fix the part to the spindle. Only the inside bore is accessible  (because its spline drops down into the drive spline at full extension) and there isn't much room between the hole and the draw-bar .  Couple that with the need to swap drawbar threads and it makes it a tricky mod.

I've been trying to find the time to reorganise my workshop and I have two better mills, so my drill-mill's days are numbered :-)
Bill

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2018, 08:51:06 AM »
Yeah, ejecting a morse taper is a PITA. (even the R8 is annoying). Not doing it up too tight helps.

I had a quick look at an ejector mechanism; the biggest pain is having to thread or otherwise fix the part to the spindle. Only the inside bore is accessible  (because its spline drops down into the drive spline at full extension) and there isn't much room between the hole and the draw-bar .  Couple that with the need to swap drawbar threads and it makes it a tricky mod.

Something like this:


https://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,6371.msg67905.html#msg67905

I've been trying to find the time to reorganise my workshop and I have two better mills, so my drill-mill's days are numbered :-)

I went the opposite way...

I have been trying to find a small milling machine (relatively high speed spindle, compact size, 600 kg or something) and a small decent (cordinate) drill....could not find, so I gave up and bought that mill/drill that shoul somewhat usefull.

Mill, something like Deckel FP2 / Stanko /east european form factor

Drill, something on the line of old traditional jig borer on laout (don't need the extreme accuracy) but long spindle stoke is nice. Elliot, Linley, et.al.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/elliott%20mini%20jig/index.html

Once I found a pair of deckel FP2 and hauser 2 jig borer/grinder excelent condition and price to match, but not ridiculous, but the seller wanted 3500 euros extra to ship them....felt weird, so I rejected.

Pekka

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2018, 08:58:58 AM »
I the machines are not really rigid enough for accurate milling without a great deal of care.

Love those negative generalizations. The used Bridgeport at work is not accurate without a great deal of care. It won't hold tram. My round column mill is quite accurate for milling if the column is in tram, gibs adjusted, the vise square to the bed, and the mill sharp. all of which apply to the Bridgeport as well. A worn or lighter weight machine will require more care to get good work out of it, but that also can be achieved for either. Really, accuracy in work is the quality of a workman, not a machine, and a great deal of care is a relative term. Can we get away from negative generalizations and promote and explain positive ways and means?

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline BillTodd

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2018, 02:28:15 PM »
Pekka,

So the extractor is a differential screw , very neat :-)


vts,

I spent a lot of time trying to get my drillmill to work the way i wanted. I have alomost zero backlask roller nuts , vary speed, I've trammed the post and replace all the bearings . I was ready to replace the awful single phase vibrator that mascarades as a motor with a propper 3ph one  , until I picked up a low hours xyz  (with 2 axis cnc) the difference between the two is chalk and cheese.

The drill mill will do fine work ,  plenty of guys here do wonderful work on them  but when you've played with something better ,   its failings  become obvious and the most glaring of them is rigidity.

BTW if your works BP wont stay trammed , it'll likely be either crap betweem the head mounting faces or damage to same , not difficult to fix but will require the head to be removed .
Bill

Offline chipenter

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2018, 03:48:24 PM »
Mine was bored 7/16" so I taped 1/2" X 32 tpi and made a draw bar 10mm corse , hold the draw bar stationary and screw the toolholder or collet in then tighten the draw bar , tang tooling is removed by the slot in the spindle with a wedge and lifting the spindle if not to tight .
Jeff