Author Topic: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill  (Read 2936 times)

Offline PekkaNF

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Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« on: August 02, 2018, 05:57:55 PM »
Bought the mill and thinkking appropriate stand/table/toolchest for it.

There are some sheet metals stands, but they have limited storage quality.

Toolchest would have excelent storage quality, but needs external support for the mill (dry weight around 300 kg). Wondering if the swarf and such would find easily it's way into drawers. My first instinct is to make separate skeleton stand that supports the machine and toolchest can be rolled uder it it or out. But 70 kg tool chest would add pretty nice torsional stiffness to simple table structure.

Any good ideas or pointers?

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2018, 11:28:45 PM »
Pekka is it the round column kind?  I have that type (Enco brand).

It has a sheet metal cabinet under, with a door. Not very useful.

It seems to me that swarf wouldn't get into drawers unless you leave them open while milling.

Same as for a benchtop lathe. I have forgotten with my lathe on occasion, so yes it does happen. But my shop is so tiny that there is no other storage solution. And I haven't made that mistake often. It just forces you to clean out your drawer more often -- which isn't a bad thing.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2018, 01:24:21 AM »
Thank you

Yes, it is round column type, figured I need more drilling than milling machine on that size (300 kg, pretty light weight)
https://www.warco.co.uk/milling-machines/36-major-milling-drilling-machine.html



I'll plan tool chest underneath it. I need to get, then I have exact dimenssions: size of tray and mounting holes.

Pekka

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2018, 07:37:03 AM »
Pekka, I like mine. Especially since I made 3 single tooth carbide insert mills for it. Particularly often used is my big diameter fly cutter with an R8 spindle. It's in very frequent use for surfacing castings. The other two are 7/8"mills - one with a square insert as an end mill, and one with a big radius insert for surfacing smaller pieces and edges.

While I've seen many add-on devices and tricks for returning the round column type mills to a previous position after raising it by the crank, I think the best method was in a youtube video where the user just positioned a magnetic indicator to the  table and against the quill, set it to zero, and after raising, returned it to zero again. Simple, sure and effective. Every other device or method I've seen has a greater error.
.
To make raising less of a chore also, buy yourself a breaker bar, and a socket to fit the column clamp nuts, and just keep that dedicated for that purpose only at the back of the mill within easy reach.

Another crescent wrench to fit the collet tightening nut is also handy to keep near. Finally, a skate ball bearing on the end of some drill rod to fit is a handy center finder, and useful in squaring up the mill vise, too. I also stuck a cheap calculator onto the front of the belt guard. It comes in very handy when figuring hole spacing, center deductions, etc.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline PK

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2018, 08:36:42 AM »
Best trick for a round column mill I ever saw was a laser pointer on the head pointing at the far wall.
Column was vertical and there was a vertical line on the wall...
Neat and well and truly accurate enough...

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2018, 08:50:57 AM »
I thought the same thing, PK, but with further reading most who actually have tried that found it both inaccurate (several thou off) and inconvenient.

Here are two videos contrasting the indicator method and the laser pointer method.

Most people who also have constructed mechanical guide devices find an error of several thou. I haven't seen anything which looks as simple, or is as accurate as the indicator method.

indicator:


laser:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2018, 12:45:14 PM »
Thank you

I have been reading long time about the round column vs. dovetail column mill conondrum.

Phenomenon is true and relevant.

Most views seem to be somewhat flawed. This is actually pretty analytical and incidently it is "same" mill that I have:


beef is here (long tool priciple), the video is long, and he is explaining several things there
https://youtu.be/wy9N-jg1AE0?t=487

Ok, it is all about drilling and this type machine is primarly drill, that has a spindle that is capable for limited milling. I saw one at one gunshop and the owner told me how he used it and what are the limitations.

Why I did't get dove tail or knee (often coned VMC or 3/4 size) mill?
- limited spindle stroke on small knee type mill VMC (130mm vs, 89mm)
- Dovetail table mills seem to suffer from weak pilar (thin casting, open on back, some sheet metal might make them look bulkier)
- not big fan of cheap gear drive, I actually spens some time in a romme where one was used and I tried it too...I don't have a decibel value to put or put my finger to it....it just sounds and feels bad. I feel that belt drive gives me greater flexibility. Most likely have to change the motor at one point.
- smaller mill/drils have a DC motor and plastic gears, I really don't like them

But, If I could just drive locally somewhere and load RF-45 into van, I probably would be just as happy.

I am thinkking now the size and depth of the tray under the machine.

Pretty conviced I'll find reasonable size tool chest or drawer module under the mill table.

Pekka

Offline chipenter

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2018, 02:46:26 PM »
I have a Warco minor and the club has a major both on stands made from 2" box steel , no drawers underneath but open plastic storage boxes and are swarf free so far .
Jeff

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2018, 03:05:55 PM »
I have a Warco minor and the club has a major both on stands made from 2" box steel , no drawers underneath but open plastic storage boxes and are swarf free so far .

How is the club Major stand in practical use? Does it has a swarf tray?

Offline chipenter

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2018, 03:18:13 PM »
Yes it has the Warco tray on a 19mm ply top , the top overhangs the frame by 75mm , still to rig up coolant for the Major but I use mist on mine as it has no tray , the Major has no drain to the table yet just a mater of drilling and taping for a hose connector .
Jeff

Offline PekkaNF

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Offline vtsteam

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2018, 09:17:26 PM »
That looks very nice, Pekka. Wish I had that.  :thumbup:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2018, 03:13:47 AM »
I am getting older and learned that machine base is pretty importat. When I got my first lathe I just lifted it onto table and used it. Not ideal.

Now, I need to plan a little ahead or I would just goblle together something when it arrives and then probably leave it there to annoy me for next 10 years.

Pekka

Offline awemawson

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2018, 03:36:13 AM »
Don't forget 'Toe Space'. When you are standing in front of a machine for any length of  time it gets mighty uncomfortable unless your toes can go under, otherwise you are too far back and end up with back ache from leaning over.


. . . . or maybe it's just me with my size 13 feet  :scratch:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2018, 06:34:22 AM »
No, it's not only you!

I am 178 cm tall (5'10") and I have noticed the same...however this mill has hand crank sticking out and on milling machines you are hardly never at straight front of the machine, that is consideration - least for front side of the table.

Pekka

Offline BillTodd

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Bill

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2018, 06:10:35 PM »
Thank you Bill. Those were good links. You have done excelent work.

 I have seen the wishbone stabilizer long time ago and I like the idea. However it does not look very straightforward get it "perfect". You state "better than +/- 10thou" for radial accuracy , which translates +/-0,254 mm, sounds reasonable for drilling.

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/uncategorised-metalworking-machines/70099-wishbone-stabiliser-round-post-drill-mill-4.html

I really don't know yet if this loss of register is real problem to me or not.

Pekka

Offline chipenter

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2018, 01:50:58 AM »
I have only had a problem with large mt drills after a pilot hole just takes a little longer to get it right , or just bolt the rack to the column .
Jeff

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2018, 05:19:44 AM »
[quote author=PekkaNF link=topic=12667.msg151382#msg151382 date=1533420635

 I have seen the wishbone stabilizer long time ago and I like the idea. However it does not look very straightforward get it "perfect". You state "better than +/- 10thou" for radial accuracy , which translates +/-0,254 mm, sounds reasonable for drilling.

Pekka
[/quote]

If I were to remake it, I would place the upper and lower pivots in front of or behind the post , so that they could be linked by a straight rod . That way ,as long as the arms are all the same length it track accurately. The one i built was too adjustable.


In use , the verticle alignment was always good enough for drilling . the machines are not really rigid enough for accurate milling without a great deal of care.

if you use er collets , the spindle brake is indispensable.
 
Bill

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2018, 06:17:13 AM »
Thank you Bill, good information!

I am tempred to consider that wishbone stabilizer.

I saw that spidle brake on your video.

I have ER collets and arbors, I use dedicated spanner to hold the arbor and ER-key to use them. I use many of them on lathe tail stock too, both have MT3 taper.

I have a lot MT3 taper tooling, most of it M12 thread, few 3/8" Whit and many tang end drills.

This brings me to drawbar tooling ejection. My current machine has plain taper bearings and giving a whak to it fine, but this mill has rolling bearings and I really dislike idea of brinneling the bearings. I have seen some differential thread or retainers to make it possible to use drawbar to release the taper from spindle. Looks like there is enough meat at the end of spindle for thread (differential thread or bushing to retain the drawbar).

The threaded retainer bushing would be very straightforward if I only would use tooling without tangs, but drills tend to have tangs.

Have to see first which tooling is essential, count them, check drabar thread and "gage length" and then I can make educated guess.

Pekka

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2018, 08:01:31 AM »
Yeah, ejecting a morse taper is a PITA. (even the R8 is annoying). Not doing it up too tight helps.

I had a quick look at an ejector mechanism; the biggest pain is having to thread or otherwise fix the part to the spindle. Only the inside bore is accessible  (because its spline drops down into the drive spline at full extension) and there isn't much room between the hole and the draw-bar .  Couple that with the need to swap drawbar threads and it makes it a tricky mod.

I've been trying to find the time to reorganise my workshop and I have two better mills, so my drill-mill's days are numbered :-)
Bill

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2018, 08:51:06 AM »
Yeah, ejecting a morse taper is a PITA. (even the R8 is annoying). Not doing it up too tight helps.

I had a quick look at an ejector mechanism; the biggest pain is having to thread or otherwise fix the part to the spindle. Only the inside bore is accessible  (because its spline drops down into the drive spline at full extension) and there isn't much room between the hole and the draw-bar .  Couple that with the need to swap drawbar threads and it makes it a tricky mod.

Something like this:


https://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,6371.msg67905.html#msg67905

I've been trying to find the time to reorganise my workshop and I have two better mills, so my drill-mill's days are numbered :-)

I went the opposite way...

I have been trying to find a small milling machine (relatively high speed spindle, compact size, 600 kg or something) and a small decent (cordinate) drill....could not find, so I gave up and bought that mill/drill that shoul somewhat usefull.

Mill, something like Deckel FP2 / Stanko /east european form factor

Drill, something on the line of old traditional jig borer on laout (don't need the extreme accuracy) but long spindle stoke is nice. Elliot, Linley, et.al.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/elliott%20mini%20jig/index.html

Once I found a pair of deckel FP2 and hauser 2 jig borer/grinder excelent condition and price to match, but not ridiculous, but the seller wanted 3500 euros extra to ship them....felt weird, so I rejected.

Pekka

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2018, 08:58:58 AM »
I the machines are not really rigid enough for accurate milling without a great deal of care.

Love those negative generalizations. The used Bridgeport at work is not accurate without a great deal of care. It won't hold tram. My round column mill is quite accurate for milling if the column is in tram, gibs adjusted, the vise square to the bed, and the mill sharp. all of which apply to the Bridgeport as well. A worn or lighter weight machine will require more care to get good work out of it, but that also can be achieved for either. Really, accuracy in work is the quality of a workman, not a machine, and a great deal of care is a relative term. Can we get away from negative generalizations and promote and explain positive ways and means?

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline BillTodd

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2018, 02:28:15 PM »
Pekka,

So the extractor is a differential screw , very neat :-)


vts,

I spent a lot of time trying to get my drillmill to work the way i wanted. I have alomost zero backlask roller nuts , vary speed, I've trammed the post and replace all the bearings . I was ready to replace the awful single phase vibrator that mascarades as a motor with a propper 3ph one  , until I picked up a low hours xyz  (with 2 axis cnc) the difference between the two is chalk and cheese.

The drill mill will do fine work ,  plenty of guys here do wonderful work on them  but when you've played with something better ,   its failings  become obvious and the most glaring of them is rigidity.

BTW if your works BP wont stay trammed , it'll likely be either crap betweem the head mounting faces or damage to same , not difficult to fix but will require the head to be removed .
Bill

Offline chipenter

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2018, 03:48:24 PM »
Mine was bored 7/16" so I taped 1/2" X 32 tpi and made a draw bar 10mm corse , hold the draw bar stationary and screw the toolholder or collet in then tighten the draw bar , tang tooling is removed by the slot in the spindle with a wedge and lifting the spindle if not to tight .
Jeff

Offline philf

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2018, 04:29:55 PM »
......I was ready to replace the awful single phase vibrator that mascarades as a motor with a proper 3ph one ......
Bill,

We had a mill/drill at work and "single phase vibrator" sums up the motor nicely. It was well enough balanced in that when you let it run down from full speed to stop with no power there was no vibration. As soon as you applied power it was terrible, the belt guards rattled violently, and it was almost impossible to get a good finish! Swapping the motor out for a "decent" 3 phase motor with a VFD would be the first job I'd do on a mill/drill. Even a 1 ph motor from a good maker would be a huge improvement.

Phil.
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2018, 05:12:19 PM »
The drill mill will do fine work ,  plenty of guys here do wonderful work on them

Now we agree.

Sorry about the bad motors mentioned, mine is fine, but it's an older Enco, and US electrical specs so again specifics, are important.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2018, 03:56:48 AM »
Single phase induction motor is bit like single cylinder four stroke I.C. you need an massive flywheel...problem is that this type of mill has splines between belt sheaves and spindle, you really need a 3p motor or secondary flywheel (or good fit with the spline).

RE: accuracy, rigidy, mass, stiffness and all that.....production environment is a completely different ball game. For hobbyist it pretty much tells what is the "absolute maximum rating" of the machine.

I know a person that "tested" the some machines with normal structural steels and end mills. His idea was to use same make end mill with recommended feeds/speeds and programs (on CNC) to produce commercial parts with commercial tolerances. Smallest machine (and the only manual machine) was Bridgeport. On this application bridgeport strugled on 12 mm or bigger endmill.  Can't remember how the real CNC:s were, but their productivity and and abbility to keep tolerances were magnitude better.

For most hobbyist the bridgeport (layout/size/weight/expence) is the goal or dream and we use way bigger than 12 mm endmills on them! It is just completely different ball game.

Yesterday I chucked 52 mm OD 2 mm wall pipe on milling vise and used 8 mm carbide endmill to notch it. I was using it probably 600 rpm (highest speed on my current mill) and feeds/speeds were fraction on nominal values. But I needed that radius and this was not production environment.

Anyway, I am bying cheap mill/drill that I'm paying way too much for what it is, but at this moment and on my situation it still looks like my best chance of getting something done... there are better and smaller (10x price), there are better and cheaper (5x weight/size, used), but this capacity/size/availability/price is just a compromize I had to make or I would not fit into my garage or would not move swarf.

Anyway, hope it get's shipped today and I get my hands on it and learn on next few something new....hopefully it is good enought and I don't need call it partial loss.

Pekka

Offline WeldingRod

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2018, 02:45:39 PM »
Another couple of stand thoughts: get it high enough, and make it so you can roll out the cabinet!
I jacked my Rockwell up about 6" to address my 6'4" height.  Its cabinet is useless, though.  I found some ikea drawer modules, about 4' tall as 12" so square with a whole bunch of shallow drawers.  I one on each side of the column.  Super handy! I wish they still made them!!
My Hardinge is jacked up about the same amount.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2018, 01:22:05 PM »
I thought they had lost the shipment, because last update on tracking info was 7.8 and contacted Warco Yesterday. Afetrnoon I got a call from Finnish depot that I can have it tomorow morning. Took surpricingly long time for them to process it. Hope I'll like it.

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2018, 07:34:59 AM »
Last night I cut some C-channel (80x45 mm and 65x40 mm). Four 740 mm pieces for legs (because that is the maximum size that fits into my flower pot that is filled with vinegar to remove rust and slag). And four 500/600 pieces for table apron and stretchers.

Flower pots are perfect size, almost 750 mm internal lengt, but still about 10 liter volume. Drawbacks are missing lid (opening means streching new clingafilm) and material should be thicker all over.

Not cruicial on this one, but sometimes it would be really nice how to weld together pipe/plate/channel to to produce strogest joint. I know some priciples, but there is more. Wonder if there is a siple guide to layman?

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2018, 05:29:06 PM »
Draw bar.

First I was thinkking if differential screw. It needs certain ration and at the taper end is tandard, that leaves tail end to play with. Hole trough the spindle is pretty good for M16x2 thread and was easy to tap. Therefore I made alternative design.

Drilled 8,5 mm hole trough  M16 20 mm long screw.

M8 thread at tail end of draw bar and long nut to fit.

Greased the rotaing parts and used bearing retainer glue to glue M8 long nut into draw bar. Left it upright for glue to harden and prevent it running to wrong places.

Pekka

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2018, 02:45:27 AM »
I have been bussy lately, but put hour now and then to this.

Decided to  make it minimum size (base size for the drill mill and a little extra to put the mount holes iddle of the C_channels results in outer size of base is 400x600 mm. Height 750 mm.

Welding and paintin was easy. Came out pretty heavy.

Used best part of the day putting the lifting eye on the roof joist. Build it from two 2x4" upright atop of roof joists. Spend some time questimating would that bee good enough. It was. Used M16 8.8 all thread and lifting eye, big washer upper end trough hole on one 2x4" laying flat.

I bought cheap chanin block and I am not sure if the markings are right on the box. Promise is for one metric ton, but maybe for them metric and imperial ton is the same. It was a little sticky with 1/3 of metric ton.

Got it lifted, put in the tray and proceeded to shim (my day off).

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2018, 05:54:13 AM »
uhuh

Shimming it straight was not easy (nor completely over) :Doh:

I think that not only the floor is skewed but the welded fame has a set and something flexes on 0,1 mm /m scale when bolts are tightened.

The big idea was to nip the frame reasonably straight and true on mill base (it is ribbed cast iron frame with some rigidy) and then shim it level and relaxed on the floor. That did not give consistent results.

Plan "B" now it is reasonably level, but not completely straight. I bolted it down, let it settle and if it has big issues I shim again the base. If it stays on level, I will shim the mill straight betwen mill plinth and table frame.

Next time I'll design adjustment on the floor pads.

After I bolted the frame on the ground i cut the bilical cord - took away the hoisting equipment. Now it has to stand on it's own.

Offline tom osselton

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2018, 07:36:16 PM »
Looks good but Iíd be worried a little the machine base is bigger than the stand and once the table is moved to the end of travel supporting any weight the leverage just might tip it! I see itís bolted down Iím just saying!

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2018, 03:05:39 AM »
Pretty convinced that M10 achor bolts will keep it tied properly on floor.

I was first considering buidling a frame over a toolbox. I could not find a tool cart of proper size (I actually bought one). But with wheels and/or table support frame it would have brought the many mill controls too high and I would have left behind it 100% empty space - they are not that deep and this mill is about one metre deep. The tool cart will be repurposed to it's original function as a tool cart to store some measurement tools and such

Then I checked smallet tool chests and boxes and I felt that I would be designing in a unnecessary complication with a very little gain. All resulted in wasted space and reduced flexibility. Therefore I decided to build funcional frame and later fit in few selves or drawers and maybe mount something on the frame.

This is build way too thick materials (6-8 mm wall thickness) but that is what I had in hand. And It won't break. I was considering a 3 mm sheet metal shell and putting three drawers in. Would have looked more professional, but harder to build anything in after mounting the milling machine.

Pekka

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2018, 02:23:35 PM »
Good to see it on the stand, Pekka! :beer:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2018, 11:53:55 AM »
Next thing next:

CENTERING! :lol:

Two basic ways to mount centring indicator

A) Stub that mounts into chuck: Dowside = you need to take off the drill or tool and replace it with indicator.





Coaxial is nicer, but takes more daylight.


B) Threepoint moount that mounts to spindle ot chuck.


Might be nicer to centre multiple holes and use one centre drill.

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Mill/drill stand for Warco Major mill
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2018, 04:42:21 PM »
Next thing next:

CENTERING! :lol:
....
B) Three-point mount that mounts to spindle ot chuck.


Might be nicer to centre multiple holes and use one centre drill.

Pekka

Got today ne about 11£ job.

Glad I bought it. It is sort of 3D model for what I need.

Construction is pretty sloppy and it has pretty inconsistent adjustment. It has a lot of nylon washers and some aluminium spacers, but adjustment tries to open/close thumb nuts and that affects adjustment "feel" also the arms are pretty thin and every part flexes.

The three point fixture mounts nice on spindle nose (but has no space to turn there) and mounts pretty nice to drill chuck.

Some pictures...

Pekka