Author Topic: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.  (Read 10339 times)

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #75 on: September 25, 2018, 01:31:54 PM »
I was thinking for the protrustion I could just fiddle aroud with slightly oversized bolt holes to get things square. Maybe plasma cutting is better than I give it credit for, but I was kind of assuming it'd be off by a little bit in roundness and stuff.

What has me more worried is their position along the axis, since that might try twist the plates if they're misaligned and cause weird problems.

Offline WeldingRod

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #76 on: September 26, 2018, 08:46:56 AM »
My plasma cut plates were so good that you could stick a bolt in a hole, let go, and it would rattle down rather than free falling.  With no cleanup on the holes! 
The plasma hole locations and edges are going to be better than +- 0.01" tolerance on absolute location.  Probable closer to +-0.002".

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Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #77 on: September 27, 2018, 06:18:06 AM »
What a damn hassle. I thought i'd try exporting the files from sketchup into fusion 360 since that's the trendy new CAD program from autodesk. Sketchup's exporter barely works and has lines and circles missing, and fusion 360 is a parametric nightmare that doesn't let you easily copy, paste and move stuff around. Why is every CAD program made by idiots. I've spent all morning trying to get things to work. Different export settings results in random circles missing, and since everything wants to be parametic and goes wild if you try move stuff . Inventor was slightly better and the sketch blocks would probably help, but at a 12 gigabyte download i'm not super keen.

It's not even complicated geometry. It's just arcs and lines.

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #78 on: September 27, 2018, 06:51:34 AM »
"Yeah, @robJYZMT, that one is unfortunate.  Project should allow projection of multiple things, but today it is one-at-a-time.  I will raise this issue in our next discussion to see if this behavior can be changed, but for now, the limitation exists."

What god damn morons. Every time I search to see if a common feature is in Fusion 360, a feature that might make each thing I try feasible, I find this exact same response. 'Gee saving the file... that isn't included as of the current release. I'll bring it up at the next meeting'. Often some clown developer follows the stock response with a 'the program works perfectly and you're stupid for not wanting to click 50,000 times to project every line and arc' sort of reply.

Maybe I aught to try solidworks at some point.

Offline WeldingRod

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #79 on: September 27, 2018, 08:51:45 AM »
I have agree on CAD challenges.  Unfortunately, there are at least two fundamental ways to describe 3d objects.  Most expensive CAD systems are parametric; think of a list having every detail written on it.  Sketchup really works by specifing triangles and rectangles.  It also has some information on what to visually smooth.
Unfortunately, those two don't play well together.  Bleah.

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Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2018, 03:04:51 PM »
I still can't figure parametric stuff out. I mean on paper the promise of being able to adjust one dimension and the rest accommodates is quite nice, but the reality is that it ends up taking alot more setup and every feature is a new puzzle.

But what gets me the most is how hard it becomes to make big changes. The few times i've seriously tried design something in 'real' CAD i've painted myself into a corner with a bizarre history, fighting with the UI for it to activate and stay in the mode I want since the software is trying to be clever and predictive. But then loads of people use that stuff successfully so it's probably just learning all the tedious nuances.

I've been bitten hard by Autodesk owned programs in the past. Don't get me started on Maya. But it makes me hesitant to really buckle down and try figure something like fusion360 out in case it goes the same way.

Offline tom osselton

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2018, 03:57:57 PM »
I watched a video where Larís brought in a stl file for 3D printing to do the cam on using fusion.

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2018, 07:14:45 PM »
I watched a video where Larís brought in a stl file for 3D printing to do the cam on using fusion.

That helps alot, thanks. Still puttering through. I've remade all the offending plates as sketches, and i'm trying to merge the sketches right now to try save myself from having to trace around the rest of them. Program just crashed though!


Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2018, 09:36:17 PM »


Whoof, finally. Imported back into sketchup. Hopefully this is good enough to get plates cut. Really i've got no idea what the requirements are. The plan was to drive about today... yesterday... to a few places and get some quotes.

There's a 5mm gap between each plate, which is a little on the small side maybe. I thought i'd start low with it crammed into a 500x300mm rectangle, then maybe expand it a bit later. But I didn't think it'd be such a hassle to get it from sketchup to fusion360. That said I think i've got a better handle on fusion360 now. I still hate it!

Offline WeldingRod

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2018, 09:53:13 PM »
Um, you really need a good, watertight (ie closed profile) dxf for cutting.  The more fiddling the welders have to do, the less happy and more expensive they will be.  If schetchup will let you close it and give you a surface, then it's probably ok.

If you can tell me what you want changed its quick and reliable in old school autocad...   just z and y rails to 40mm, right?  I should be able to do it Friday, sunday for sure!

BTW, don't worry about nesting.  They've got fancy software for that!

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Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #85 on: September 27, 2018, 10:22:44 PM »
I think it's closed profile. That's just how sketchup imports them, it's not a great program.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1OeDvagCIh6nnlw7WHoQM6iVRWrF-CsP8 Here's a link. I can't tell if they're closed in fusion360 either since that likes to shade any enclosed area anyways, or even in that preview of the file.

The only changes i've made to the plates is to include 2 more for Z motor mounts and to en-widen the biggest plates by 20mm in the middle to span the 20x40 Z beams. I left the Y rails at 20x20 since I figured being a bit shorter than in the original design they'd probably be alright.

Also I was going to ask why your dxf files had the parts so far apart. I wasn't sure if it was to make use of a weird plate or something. I guess that explains it!

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #86 on: September 28, 2018, 01:36:18 AM »
Oh yeah those flanged bearings arrived today. Total trash! I didn't really expect much but I was surprised by how decent the other ones seemed once i'd pulled off the seals. Decent quality flanged bearings cost a fortune in the amounts i'd need so i'm back to thinking those stupid overpriced wheels might still be the cheapest option.

Offline WeldingRod

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #87 on: September 28, 2018, 09:52:16 AM »
 :beer:  I gave your DXF a check, and all the shapes are water tight!
A word of warning: do a careful count to make sure you have all the plates!  The set up and tear down is more expensive than the cutting for this sort of stuff.  Thus, much cheaper to get a few extras than to come out short.  I ended up with dozens of random bits after the production run of bots...

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #88 on: September 29, 2018, 12:10:54 AM »
Thanks for checking it, that's a relief to know.

I chickened out yesterday on asking places. I'm fairly certain i'm gonna make an ass of myself. There's a whole bunch of places I could ask so i'm trying to narrow the list down to a few small ones. Sign fabricators seem promising.

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #89 on: September 29, 2018, 10:25:43 AM »
Nothing better to do right now than go through the list of all the small things I need and price that out. It's my favorite part of any project where the estimated price can double. All those little things add up.

The controller boards... there's alot out there. I'm sure the smoothieboard used to be £100 but they're now £160. There's alot of them about that hover at the same kinda price, but then there's those MKS SBase boards from China for £50. A £110 savings is nothing to sneeze at.

Can't find any outright 'don't buy this!' posts about it. Just the usual 'buy cheap buy twice!' garbage. I could buy 3 of these boards for the price of an official smoothieboard.

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #90 on: September 30, 2018, 02:56:15 AM »
I find alot of people online reviewing products that got them sent for free for the review. Wonder how you get in on that...

Offline nrml

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #91 on: September 30, 2018, 03:39:12 AM »
I find alot of people online reviewing products that got them sent for free for the review. Wonder how you get in on that...

I believe you start by setting up a youtube or social media channel that becomes popular and heavily subscribed. The corporate devils will come knocking at your door and then you sell them your soul for their twelve pieces of silver then spend the rest of every waking hour of your life churning out as much content as you can to keep the devils happy and your pockets lined.

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #92 on: September 30, 2018, 04:48:37 AM »
I find alot of people online reviewing products that got them sent for free for the review. Wonder how you get in on that...

I believe you start by setting up a youtube or social media channel that becomes popular and heavily subscribed. The corporate devils will come knocking at your door and then you sell them your soul for their twelve pieces of silver then spend the rest of every waking hour of your life churning out as much content as you can to keep the devils happy and your pockets lined.

Hahah. That's why I didn't go further with the youtube game. Seems like a weary life being at the mercy of an algorythm and there's no way you can produce Good Content on your own budget to the weekly schedule demanded for success.

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #93 on: October 03, 2018, 01:04:48 PM »
Managed to sell that fursuit head at last for a pretty decent price. Already spent most of it on this printer though.

Went about today making a fool of myself trying to find somewhere willing to cut the plates. Went with a laser cutting place in the end but they won't be ready till next week. Also in the end I just ordered all the wheels for their astonishing price instead of trying to cut them. I don't quite have the free time or enthusiasm I used to. Tomorrow i'll go to the usual place and see if they have all the fasteners in stock.

Still need to get the controller board, build plate, and figure out what i'm doing with respect to the extruder. After that I *THINK* I might have everything to get it running.

Hopefully some day i'll actually have an update worth posting!

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #94 on: October 06, 2018, 08:02:51 PM »
Plates will be ready on Thursday and then things might get interesting. But for now i've just tapped the ends of the extrusions.

But i've been looking at controller boards again and man it's frustrating. I'm not sure if I really understand the deal with open source stuff. I mean I get what it is but I don't get why people are so damned righteous about it. A Chinese guy offered them a board at 1/3rd of the price of what they already had, and then they outright rejected and sabotaged it. To me it seems like the guy selling the original board convinced 'the community' to do his work for him in fixing software issues, and then they all convinced each other that he did them a favour.

I dug up a passive aggressive slap fight between the SBase developer and the Smootheboard developer, where the SBase guy was politely explaining why he built the board the way he did but the Smootheboard guy was finding petty ways to criticize it. He came accross as a bit of a jerk. I can understand being protective about his product, but it's when he starts coming out with the 'I empowered a community to develop an amazing system, and you're just stealing THEIR hard work' stuff.

So in conclusion, i'm still confused. The Chinese boards seem good but supporting them is a taboo in the 3d printing community.

Offline WeldingRod

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #95 on: October 07, 2018, 08:32:53 AM »
I get good results with an Uno...  but I would pick a fancy board if I re-did it ;-)

If your cutting folks have the good hole cutting program, then the holes should work as-is.  Otherwise, you can use a step drill or a taper reamer to clean out the burrs.

The funny stepper motor shaft to belt to long shaft widget offers some quality machining time, if you need a distraction!

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Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #96 on: October 08, 2018, 03:20:36 AM »
I get good results with an Uno...  but I would pick a fancy board if I re-did it ;-)

If your cutting folks have the good hole cutting program, then the holes should work as-is.  Otherwise, you can use a step drill or a taper reamer to clean out the burrs.

The funny stepper motor shaft to belt to long shaft widget offers some quality machining time, if you need a distraction!

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I keep getting disheartened looking at making something like the hotend, and realising that by the time I bought all the heater cartridges and other junk I might as well buy the entire assembly ready made. Delaying thinking about that rod though since i've not got any 5mm or close to 5mm bar long enough on hand. I'm also thinking about doing something with 8mm rod or pipe since i've got alot of 8mm bore pulleys.

Fussing with the build plate right now. I quite like this guy's take. Mains power makes more sense than dealing with big power supplies dumping 12 volts into PCB traces, although those solid state relays make me nervous. Everything i've looked at though has been quite expensive so far though. Wonder if I could get away with a couple old clothes irons bolted to the bottom of an aluminium plate...

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #97 on: October 08, 2018, 07:12:51 AM »
Had plenty time to think about it while waiting for the car at the garage. The price of doing it like that Werner Berry guy is about the same as just buying a self-adhesive silicone heater. That's really become the theme of this machine.

My last idea for a Cheap Option is to perhaps clip & glue an oven heating element to the underside of the plate with flue silicone. There are thermally conductive silicone adhesives but they're relatively expensive. Something tells me it's a bad idea though...

Offline WeldingRod

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #98 on: October 08, 2018, 09:54:08 AM »
That's an interesting method of making a heater!  Mine runs on mains power too (120 VAC).  I have a dedicated temperature controller (and sensor) that limits the maximum temperature during heat up.  The controller board has its own thermistor screwed into the side of the bed that is able to regulate a bit below the big guy's set point.

My other 3D printer uses nichrome wire taped to the bed with fiberglass and Kapton tape (but running at 12 Volt) (second photo).  To make this sort of thing work, you need to keep the Watts per inch of wire down.  The challenge is that areas of wire that are in good thermal contact with the bed stay near bed temperature, but ones with poor contact get hot.  I had areas that got hot enough to evaporate the Teflon insulation the first time around (first photo)!   :zap: Also, terminating Nichrome wire is a PITA.  Your best bet is to either use really low Watt density and crimp on high temperature rated ends, or solder on ends.  To solder, you must sand the surface of the wire, use acid type plumbing flux and, (ideally) silver bearing solder.  Lead free plumbing solder should be ok.  The reason for the acid flux is that Nichrome has an adherent oxide layer that solder doesn't normally wet.  https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:13939

I used a siliconeheater on mine, and had Keenovo make one the right size:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/35x35cm-110V-Silicone-Heater-Cobblebot-3D-Printer-Heatbed-w-Digital-Control-Plug/281704332422?hash=item4196e2fc86:g:HB8AAOSwc1FXZgm4
You really need to get the plate flat, at least if you want the bottoms of your stuff flat.  If you use mesh bed levelling you can live with merely flat-ish as long as the shape isn't too complex.  The laziest flat surface is glass.  You definitely need a bit of thickness; 1/4" or better should work fine.

I LOVE the PEI coated bed I have; zero hassle factor!  non-zero $$, though.

Offline WeldingRod

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Re: Sheet Metal Brake and 3d Printer.
« Reply #99 on: October 08, 2018, 10:04:34 AM »
I can't recommend making nozzles, but heat breaks and heat sinks are definitely do-able and may be worth your fun time, especially if you want something a bit special.  I made a special dual-Volcano heat sink to fit my bot.
I should mention that dual nozzle are a PITA on a big printer; the tiny nozzle is always dragging on the big nozzle's work.  I have #2 raised way up to get it out of the way.  At some point I will switch over to a filament changing nozzle (basically a Y junction in the bowden tube).