Author Topic: DRO for Warco Major mill  (Read 2483 times)

Offline PekkaNF

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DRO for Warco Major mill
« on: December 30, 2018, 09:10:57 AM »
Hello,

Got the round column mill and pretty soon noticed that it takes three hands and patience of the saint to keep up required accuracy with these mills.



Story of stand:
https://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,12667.msg152459.html#msg152459

Although generally I am happy with the mill and it does much I want, 3 mm backlash on handwheels and a mushy feeling of it convinced me that the X/Y stage needs a closer look, probably new bearings and that sort of work. While at it, adding a DRO might be a good idea.

Ordered and got 3 axis (two will be used primarly and maybe third added later) magnetic scale system:
https://www.machine-dro.co.uk/3-axis-mill-dro-kit-with-magnetic-encoders.html

Planning to mount the magnetic tapes flush inside the slides on non sliding surfaces I.E. not planning to use the typical scaffolding type mounting.




I am sure that someone has done this before, but I could not find story. Any links to similar installations or advice?

Pekka

Offline BillTodd

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2018, 01:23:12 PM »
From memory, there is nothing flat or square on the unmachined insides of these . Catch 22nin action, you need a working mill to fix the mill  :Doh:

I would mount the X heads to the (Y) saddle and the the mag tape to the table with a straight bar to carry the tape . It'll be a pita to get the things aligned so mount the reader head close to one side of the saddle (easier to get at)

Not sure if there's enough room to get the tape under the Y saddle for the Y axis , but the saddle is close to a straight-ish side of the base casting so you might be able to use that.
Bill

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2018, 03:36:35 PM »
Luckily I have a second mill and it is biger...therefore I don't need to resort Heath Robinson solutions.

I took off the rubber cover of Y-ways and also disaasmbled the table screw out to gain better look inside....interesting....there are possibilities, but they all need a serious consideration.

I sort of like the stops on front of the table. There is about 30 mm space behind the table that is used by this rubber shield now. Maybe I could construct different swarf guard to replace it and get more space behind the table for magnetic tape.

Mounting the tape underside the T-slot table is possible, but it would require serious slotting for the reading head, because if I want to use original movement range the table movement does not really allow mounting the transducer on side of the middle part (Y-sledge).

Mounting it behind of the table using the supplied aluminium profiles for the magnetic tape is a squese. Need to build a mechanical stop, because just looking the dimenssions, there is just 0,7mm to spare.





Offline tom osselton

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2018, 03:44:32 PM »
I have a craftex mill that I put a dro on from Dro Proís. I went with a 4 axis and can use the quill by combining the quill and z axis using one readout if I choose to. Mine has the mag strip on the back and I made brackets for the side of the machine.

Offline tom osselton

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2018, 04:12:54 PM »
Here is a pic of the y axis.

Offline BillTodd

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2018, 04:43:44 PM »
The only broken scale  I' ve replaced ( as opposed to many failed ones) was on a bp mill and that had the scale on the rear of the table.  It seems more vulnerable there than it looks. we've several xyz mills with scales on the front that have been ok.

Bill

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2018, 02:02:52 AM »
I have a craftex mill that I put a dro on from Dro Proís. I went with a 4 axis and can use the quill by combining the quill and z axis using one readout if I choose to. Mine has the mag strip on the back and I made brackets for the side of the machine.

Thank you Tom. Looks like really solid bracket. Looks like you have the X-axis scale right behind of the table....very much the same way I envisioned assembling mine. Do you have any advise on that style assembly?


The only broken scale  I' ve replaced ( as opposed to many failed ones) was on a bp mill and that had the scale on the rear of the table.  It seems more vulnerable there than it looks. we've several xyz mills with scales on the front that have been ok.

Thank you Bill. That is something to think over, I might think that the scale is more vulnerable on front - operator errors i.e. my butter fingers comes to mind----like adjusting the table stops with magnetic tool and poking the scale accidentally

I like the mechanical table stops on X-axis, not extremely attractive mechanically, but seems to work. I was thinking of keeping it, because sometimes it is pretty handy (used it couple of times allready). This is the main reason I thought of putting the X-axis magnetic scale somewhere else than on front of the table.

The original tape rule "scale" on the front is pretty bad, barely adequate to verify while counting cranks of the handle.

Pekka

Offline chipenter

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2018, 03:29:49 AM »
I fitted dro's to my Warco minor by brackets on the end face of the table with clearance for the centre stop , and replacing the lock levers with grub screws , but still have the use of the adjustable end stops , the Z axis scale reads 92.5 thaow per revolution ( I have no idea how that works ) .
Jeff

Offline tom osselton

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2018, 04:46:45 PM »
The x axis wasnít bad installing as itís all on a flat surface you do lose some machining area and itís not just the scale but the way covers too in my case 1/8 rubber so when it folds up thereís a 1/4Ē added but hasnít affected anything I do.
Iíd put it on the back and try it and see what you think, worse case scenario you could change it which would take maybe 1 hour.

Offline WeldingRod

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2019, 05:05:58 PM »
Here's a super compact magnetic tape installation on my hardinge cross slide.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2019, 02:35:21 AM »
Here's a super compact magnetic tape installation on my hardinge cross slide.

That surely is super compact and looks like read head has a cover that should keep the swarf away. Looks a little out in the wind location and you probably don't have a habit of putting a magnetic stand ant that side of the cross slide.

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2019, 11:03:19 AM »
Disassembled the table and saddle. Taper gibs looks fine and threaded spindle nuts are cast iron.

Need to make some measurements to verify results, but looks like the easies way is to do hang the scales outside of the machine.

X-axis scale could fit right behind of the table.

Y-axis has more freedom and there are more possibilities. Several places, it could be fit nearly, or it almost could be hiden out of harm's way - and many places that it would be pretty crampped installation.

Traditional course of action would be to fit the magnetic tape onto plinth (cast, tapered side) and attach the read head into Y-slide (saddle). Mecahnically easy, but would need stand offs for the scale spar to keep it out of the plinth (and dripping oil, coolant, swarf) and the read head would be in the moving part.

Thinking of making a mount into saddle and hang the tape face down (i.e. attach the tape into moving part, under the table - mostly) and the read head mount into plinth. Need few more measurement to verify if this is a good plan.

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2019, 04:04:13 PM »
Did a little mockup for both X-axis tape options.

Pic 1: Permanent marker pen (left) where magnetic tape would come if I want it out of the way. Ballpoint pen (right) if I want to hang the tape behind of the table.

Pic2: This would be the easy option: Measurement behind of the table. Hardly any machining to Warco mill parts. Could use supplied parts to mount the magnetic scale. Mounting the reader head would be easy, could use supplied hardware or make simple mount.

Pic3: IF want to mount the magnetic scale inside the table (as in pic 1), the reader head needs to be recessed into saddle. Position needs to be 10 mm down and into machined surface from the place it is lying in the picture. Dove tail comes into way with straight endmill. This needs a bit special endmill with thinned shank or small T-grove end-mill make it. Therefore this will be not my prefered method, unless I need all the movement range in Y-axis (and therefore can't mount the scale behind the table).

Pekka
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 02:30:03 AM by PekkaNF »

Offline BillTodd

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2019, 04:39:30 AM »
Pekka,

while you have the Yaxis apart, check the flatness and fit of the Y nut to the saddle  . I found that this interface was a source of backlash in my rollernut conversion.

Bill

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2019, 05:43:30 AM »
Pekka,

while you have the Yaxis apart, check the flatness and fit of the Y nut to the saddle  . I found that this interface was a source of backlash in my rollernut conversion.

Thank you. I will check that.

I noticed that all of the threaded spindle nuts and bearings are mounted onto painted cast iron. Not the normal industrial practice.

One thing that baffles me that that ground way surfaces are flaked lightly, probably to retain oil, but mounting surfaces are pretty rough. Also the taper gibs seems to be very agresively scraped on the way side (but that part of the way itself is not flaked....). The gibs are unfinished on the other other side, couple of deep scores, I flatten with file, just to knock burr off.

I am also eyeballing it to see if it would benefit from way lubrication points, way oil seems to stick onto surface, but I have used plenty. Maybe a little less would be more.

Pekka
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 07:54:24 AM by PekkaNF »

Offline seadog

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2019, 06:27:10 AM »
I think the accepted view of Chinese 'built' machines is that you should view them as a kit of parts which need stripping, fettling and reassembling. You then end up with something that's not too bad for the price.

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2019, 07:49:15 AM »
I think the accepted view of Chinese 'built' machines is that you should view them as a kit of parts which need stripping, fettling and reassembling. You then end up with something that's not too bad for the price.

I agree with this. And availability of these machines. And ease of working with them.

I tried to get semi decent Aciera F3 or something nearby...not too keen on buying from a dealer from other country before seeing one in person.

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2019, 05:28:46 PM »
Pekka,

while you have the Yaxis apart, check the flatness and fit of the Y nut to the saddle  . I found that this interface was a source of backlash in my rollernut conversion.

And while at it, I decided to check why my mill had only 180 mm of cross traverse instead of advertised 203 mm. Someone forgot to snag the cast iron plinth opening.

5 min with hack saw sorted it and now cross traverse (Y) is pretty much exactly 200 mm. But now there is no room for X-scale behind of the table with standard mounting hardware anymore.

Pekka

Offline seadog

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2019, 05:39:29 PM »
Snagging is what we, in the UK, call fettling. An old Middle English word derived from German.

Offline chipenter

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2019, 04:50:23 AM »
Take a bit from the front and put a stop at the back .
Jeff

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2019, 05:08:42 AM »
Snagging is what we, in the UK, call fettling. An old Middle English word derived from German.

Thank you, I always thought that fettling was more akin to cleaning and knocking of shar edges and such. But I never heard snagging being used in UK, only in US. But then again that was not my primary intrest then.


Take a bit from the front and put a stop at the back .

Hmm. There is no T-grove on the back of the table.

Offline chipenter

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2019, 08:54:21 AM »
The stop would have to be for the lead screw nut to hit , it's the nut that limits travel on my minor the casting was curved and angled the nut was flat , and only about 6mm thick just filed it square and got another 10mm .
Jeff

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2019, 11:11:28 AM »
The stop would have to be for the lead screw nut to hit , it's the nut that limits travel on my minor the casting was curved and angled the nut was flat , and only about 6mm thick just filed it square and got another 10mm .

Yesh, there is a curve at the front end of the plinth. Cuout is U-shaped and I was working on with pilar end. Need to chek if the spindle reaches far side of the table.

Pekka

Offline WeldingRod

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2019, 01:48:15 PM »
You could do like I did on my cross slide, and bond the magnetic tape directly to the machined back side of the table.  If you put the reader off center, you could get it on there with no loss of travel.

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Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2019, 03:38:57 PM »
You could do like I did on my cross slide, and bond the magnetic tape directly to the machined back side of the table.  If you put the reader off center, you could get it on there with no loss of travel.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

That is a pretty good option. Easy to make and maintain.

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2019, 04:09:20 PM »
Checked this option at the far side of the table and there is a loss of travel or loss of measurement.

If the read head is put side of the pilar, it does not interfere with Y-axis travel, but does not read extreme right of X-axis direction.

If the read head is located to read all of X-axis travel, it will clip about 9 mm of Y-axis travel, does not sound much, but it is all located at the useful front part of the table.

So, did a mock up all three options and measured how much things change. No really easy and smart way to do it without any compromise.

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2019, 04:11:58 AM »
Still dragging my feets....

And got some piece of usefull information: Apparently castings of these cheap mills are not normalized! Amazing. Therefore milling them grooves or pockets is apparently a bad idea. I found one case that mill T-slot table was straight originally, but developed a warp after a pocket for ball screw nut and a grove for ball screw was milled. The warp was in order of 0,1 mm and the grove for the ball screw was 3 mm deep 30 mm wide. Therefore it looks like a bad idea to mill on cast surface. Bugger.

Plan A is to mount:

* X-axis scale behind the T-slot table and accept a 60-70 mm of lost travel distance. I very tempted to use supplied aluminium extrusion to mount the tape, it would provide some protection for the tape and inhibit only 1 mm of Y-axis movement.

* Y-axis is harder, I allready ordered the parts to mount the tape at the top of the table on flat channel - no problem there. But the read head mount would need a pocket milled right into virgin cast surface on the saddle - where it has a great potential to warp TWO axis movement.

Pekka

Offline awemawson

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2019, 05:32:28 AM »
The warping is obviously relieving stresses in the casting by removing a surface layer, in much the same way that cold rolled mild steel will warp if one side only is milled.

Sadly though if the castings are as bad as you suggest then there will be some warping over time even if not machined  :(

It may not be appropriate in the case of your mill, but to overcome a similar space / layout issue on my Colchester Master when Newall came to fit the DRO they used an 'outrigger' to place the actual ball tube well the the rear.
Andrew Mawson
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Offline RussellT

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2019, 06:12:09 AM »
Rather than accept losing travel wouldn't it be better to mount the x axis DRO on the front of the table and do something else so you could continue to use stops.  On my mill I added a steel rod below the x axis scale which I can clamp stops to.  Although to be honest I haven't made the stops yet.

Russell
Common sense is unfortunately not as common as its name suggests.

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2019, 07:15:59 AM »
Thank you Andrew, I know that system and lay-out. I rather use cheap standard parts to this one.

I will deal with the warping when it shows.

Rather than accept losing travel wouldn't it be better to mount the x axis DRO on the front of the table and do something else so you could continue to use stops.  On my mill I added a steel rod below the x axis scale which I can clamp stops to.  Although to be honest I haven't made the stops yet.

Russell

I was considering it, but it would bring the read head forward and fairly middle - to my work area.

Easiest way to mount the tape on the front of the table would be to remove the measurement tape rule out of groove and replace it with the magnetic tape. Perfect fit. Then it would be possible to use mounting holes of the stationary top block and indicator and replace it with a foot that would double as stop block and read head mount.

But then the tape would be really front of the table, where I tend to use squares, tools, magnetic stand etc. And the read head would be pretty proud and non shielded location.

Second option would be to mount the tape below the current stop into more protected position. That would mean some machining for the magnetic tape (2x10mm grove for magnetic tape + 0,5x16 mm for 0,2 mm stainless steel protective strip. This machining would be into readily machined surface .... maybe minimal chance for warping?

OR bolt on rail for magnetic tape and wonky looking arm. for stopper to clear this.

Another hour or two lego play time on the milling machine :lol: Maybe all would just fit there and convincingly stay out of troubles way.

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2019, 04:37:31 PM »
I am now considering seriously fitting the scale front/low in lieu to X-axis stops. Where is this world getting at?

Pekka

Offline BillTodd

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2019, 04:55:53 PM »
Mount the scale to the front. then...

make a couple of stops that attach to the Table dovetail  and to the small area below the scale .  If you are using stops , then you are unlikely to be using the full range of the table , so the loss fo a few centimetres of 'stop' range wil not cause you a big problem ( nothing that could not be fixed 'on the day')

Make an electrical stop that bleeps with incresing rapidity as you approach the stop point.


Bill

Offline SeaCat

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2019, 06:23:55 PM »
The term "snagging" in the UK usually refers to correcting the defects in a project.  As a project progresses defects arise which need to be 'corrected'.  These are put on a "Snagging List".  Before the project can be said to be completed all the '"snaggs" on the list need to be corrected to the project managers satisfaction.  Amongst other things.

That's the theory anyway!   The practice may be different!

Chris

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2019, 01:32:16 AM »
Mount the scale to the front. then...

make a couple of stops that attach to the Table dovetail  and to the small area below the scale .  If you are using stops , then you are unlikely to be using the full range of the table , so the loss fo a few centimetres of 'stop' range wil not cause you a big problem ( nothing that could not be fixed 'on the day')

Make an electrical stop that bleeps with incresing rapidity as you approach the stop point.

That is actually a very good idea!

I will not need them often (even less so with DRO) and mechanical stops right at guide ways must surely be most accurate. Pretty high on the list when making about hundred teeth and depth is is set by a end stop (done that). Now I need to check the details i.e. which surface to use as a stop, does it needs a taped stud or small flat or what. Would be easy to do now when it's in parts.

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2019, 02:43:17 PM »
Jep, it would be pretty easy to mount the rail into table stopper rail.

Looks like should remove the tape rule from the table or least flatten the rivets.

Standard read head mountung hardware does not fit, but proper one is not too hard to make.

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2019, 08:52:56 AM »
And because this is somewhat disasembled, might as well check how true parts are.

I measured horisontal plane in 0,01 mm resolution, checked first with thick blue, knock off some raised edges and burrs and then checked with very thin blue.

The surface looks a litle unusual.

Offline seadog

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2019, 08:58:13 AM »
I see a scraping project about to commence  :D

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2019, 09:58:56 AM »
No no no...this is good enough now. I'll use it as it is until it starts acting up. There is still a possibility that castings start to warp or something.

Offline seadog

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2019, 10:42:04 AM »
I assume that you're hoping the castings will warp in the correct directions then, Pekka?  :lol:

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2019, 12:39:52 PM »
I hope that castings will behave themselves.

The table looks pretty straight and contact between table/saddle is pretty civilized.

I don't have dovetail straight edge to check the guide ways properly, but looks ok.

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2019, 05:38:59 PM »
Today I had few extra hours and plan was max. results with minimal effort.

I could not locate thick enenough aluminium for support, I mostly used 30x30 mm 2 mm thick L-profile.

Mechanically it appears fine, but I haven't tested it yet electrically.

Magnetic tape is now 2 mm off the sensor. Plan is to file 3 mm bolt holes oval just enough to bring the tape near the sensor but avoid physical contact.

Still two separate items left: X-axis and configutation.

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2019, 06:57:55 PM »
Now the interesting question. Which way should axis indication increase?

CNC easy, two views, same result...




[/quote]

BUT this is a manual machine

1: When I turn Y-axis wheel clockwise table will move away and numers on micrometer will increase.....it would be elegant if the numbers on DRO would increase as well.

2: Looks like it is rather popular to zero origo on fixed jaw of the vice. Obivious benefits.

Any takes?

Pekka

Offline Will_D

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2019, 04:45:34 AM »
You can configure each axis to read either positive or negative for a given movement.
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Offline awemawson

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2019, 05:30:47 AM »
These are the axis designations on my Beaver Mill (Fixed table moving quill) and my Beaver Lathe (Moving Turret) if it helps:
Andrew Mawson
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Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2019, 06:42:28 AM »
Forgot to put few earlier pics on cast iron flats for mounting. 16 mm indexed mill, M6 threads and 3 mm spacer washers to raise the bracket off the rough cast surface.

There should a alrge mill in the darkest corner that is big enough to mount all parts of the other machines for modifications.... :scratch:

Tested the Y-axis, works fine and tape/head is in correct relation (both pulse count A/B, ref and direction).

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2019, 05:04:44 PM »
Two hours on two days -each and X-axis measurement is ready.

Still left final cable routting, but this looks pretty compact.

Not as well hidden than my original plan, but better than I were afraind.

I tried to make all prts to hug as close to machine core as possible.

Pekka

Offline tom osselton

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2019, 05:31:56 PM »
That is a nice way of doing it!

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: DRO for Warco Major mill
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2019, 12:35:32 PM »
This installation has been working fine.

Alternative to magnetic scales video here - glass scales:


Incidently, pretty much same locations and logic with this video and my installation.