Author Topic: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)  (Read 4663 times)

Offline JeffK

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Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« on: February 27, 2019, 02:39:40 PM »
Well - after telling Mr Mawson I would start a new thread I finally got round to it.
I had always fancied getting myself a CNC lathe to learn on. Having played with manual machines a good bit I thought why not?
Problem was I live up North of Aberdeen and anything cheap enough to play on would cost the earth to get here.

Around Christmas I spied an ad for a Beaver TC20F for sale in Aberdeen. I thought here's the chance and got in touch with the seller.
Turns out the very problem I had getting a cheap machine up here applied equally the other way round. Everyone interested in it told
him it was far too expensive to ship it down South. We negotiated a deal and I am now the proud owner of a non-working TC20F for little
over scrap value. And so the journey starts..........

After stripping as much weight as possible off it to transport it the 25 miles back to my place ( a slow and sketchy journey with said slimmed
down machine on a trailer in a couple of journeys) I got it back home and with the combination of JCB, forklift and a couple of trolley jacks
got it where I needed it.

Next stage - power.

I have a generator for 3 -phase so duly wired it up thinking 'off we go!!!'  No such luck. Signs of life but that was about it.....

Time to start trawling the internet - where I came across MadModder and the Andrew Mawson Beaver epic. :clap:

I started to read and slowly realised maybe I had bitten off a bit too much here..... too late now !!! :doh:

Anyway I read somewhere changing the phasing might help so I did - and it did. Things started to come to life - but not quite as I had expected.

The statement ' it hasn't been used for a couple of years - but I've seen it turning' was a slight exageration.

My Fanuc 10T sprang into action with a screen full of errors - so now begins the fun.....

As a start I thought I would post a few photos so people can admire how much work Andrew put into his and see how far I have to go.....

As info is scarce on this machine if anyone recognises bit it would be great to get your opinions, good, bad or just plain ugly..... :thumbup:

Offline awemawson

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2019, 03:45:51 PM »
Well done Jeff, it's reassuring to think that I'm not the only lunatic on the planet.

Although your machine is based on an entirely different controller, and all the servo electronics is different, they follow the same principles as mine, and I suspect that there is more Fanuc knowledge floating about that Siemens.

I look forward to further episodes !
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline tom osselton

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2019, 05:49:27 PM »
Good luck Iím sure it will be worth it in the end! I have a 96 Cincinnati 250t ( simodrive 611) that did fire up and was able to move around but now just shows a initializing host post on the screen. The only other thing it brings up is the test for buttons.

Offline RodW

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2019, 06:29:17 AM »
Good luck with this. The important photos to take are of the ID plates on the servos and their drives. Assuming the fault is not a simple one, I would recommend retrofitting with LinuxCNC. Post said photos on the linuxcnc forum and ask for help. You might be surprised with the outcome.

Mesa have an amazing array of electronic hardware http://www.mesanet.com/
And also Pico Systems has some Fanuc interfaces https://pico-systems.com/osc2.5/catalog/index.php
Both Jon from Pico and Peter from Mesa are active on that forum.

Its a bit outside my sphere but there are many people there who will help. I did see there was a Beaver mill retrofit on one thread.
RodW
Brisbane, Australia

Offline JeffK

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2019, 02:41:16 PM »
Thanks gents

I am learning a few interesting things along the way just now.....
I power my workshop with a couple of generators - a 50KVa which is good for most things and a 250KVa which was also rescued from a scrapyard.
The 50KVa I bought brand new (Cat Olympus) as it was a lot cheaper than getting hooked up to a 3-phase supply. The 250KVa was a backup generator
for an oil company in Aberdeen. They decided to demolish their offices and move and I got wind the generator was being scrapped. I spoke nicely to
the demolition crew and managed to get a 20 year old DAF powered 250KVa generator fully serviced with 100hours on the clock again for a little over
scrap value. It is noisy and thirsty but does the business!!! :)
Anyway when I run the lathe off the 50KVa it is fine until something else kicks in (I have a substantial air compressor), At this point the voltage drop gives
me all kind of problems and errors. When I run it off the big beast the power is not stabilised and that also gives issues (though less). So a stabilised power
supply is important.
Another point which I have seen on several posts also rings true - a thing that is not used is often subject to more issues than one that is regularly used.
I sent a note to Andrew M the other day about not being able to zero reference my machine because the zero switch didn't seem to work. I was tinkering
the other day and got a phone call which pulled me away, however I didn't shut the machine down. It got warm and when I came back a couple of hours
later the zero return switch had magically started working. I guess the warm in a cold damp Aberdeen workshop in winter (its not that bad really!) had
driven a few of the damp gremlins away.
I guess the point is with an old machine that has not been used for a while assuming things are broken is not always valid. A bit of TLC can bring things
back to life just as well as wading in with the spanners.

Thanks for the info as well Rod. At the moment I am trying to keep cost to a minimum and fix what is there.... call me cheap but I also like original.... :D

To continue where I left off - having read about the nightmare of backup batteries leaking everywhere I figured the first thing to find was the backup on mine.
I searched hi and low looking for something the size of a car battery to no avail. I opened more covers and hatches that the Queen Mary. Finally I found a small
cover on the door of the bolt on cabinet at the side of the machine that houses the PLC power supply and IO cards. To my surprise under the cover I found
3 Duracell size D batteries (dated 2012). Needless to say these were easily changed and I could breathe a sigh of relief that they were neither expensive
or leaking..... also rather well positioned where they couldn't damage anything if they did.....
On to the next error - axis field error...... more on that later....

Offline vintageandclassicrepairs

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2019, 04:04:48 PM »
Hi Jeff,
Do you know if the electronics supply is 240v or 400? (across 2 phases)
If it's 240v could you supply the controls from the mains?
(assuming you have a 240v mains supply of course)
That way you could leave the supply on to the controls

John

Offline JeffK

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2019, 02:22:21 PM »
Thanks for the suggestion John - it would keep the damp off the electronics so worthwhile - and we do have mains power north of Aberdeen.... not quite that far up :)

I've been a bit tied up the last week or so so not much time spare - but did have a good day today - more later.

I left off with an axis field fault. I hadn't a clue so set about prodding, poking and fiddling looking for loose wires and blown fuses. I did come across a thermal trip which looked far too new and was obviously a replacement for the original. It had dip switches and a current setting - all of which were set to maximum. I am a believer that things are designed to run mid range so this seemed wrong to me. I dived on the internet with make and model and emerged a half hour later non the wiser. I just decided to set everything to mid range and used a bit of logic with the dip switches and to my amazement when I fired the machine up again the error had gone!!! :thumbup: Not sure if this was the prodding or poking or the thermal trip setting - but I didn't really mind....

At this point it is worth mentioning the lathe did come with some manuals - pictured below. The more I delve into them the more I understand what is going on (or so I kid myself)

Offline awemawson

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2019, 02:50:10 PM »
Good progress  :thumbup:

Are you aware that your machine manual is the 'S' version for the Siemens control not your Fanuc one ?
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline JeffK

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2019, 03:00:53 PM »
After clearing the axis fault I found that the machine began to show signs of life.... I could now jog a little way on the x and z axes and jog the spindle but that was about it.
A bit more internet trawling and I introduced myself to parameters..... and the annoying 8000 PWE.
I found that the stroke limits were stopping me jogging the full travel - whats more they seemed to be completely out of whack. Unfortunately at this point I tried jogging to the end
of the travel on the z axis and hit the hard overtravel (more about the soft overtravel later). With this I got an EMG shut down and was scratching my head again. I tried all kinds of things but in the end resorted to manually winding the machine back (with the power off) to get it back into its happy zone. That sorted the lack of movement but now on startup I get a pulse encoder fault. Not a problem because I can clear it after startup.
So back to parameters.... every time I tried to change anything I got a write protect message. I trawled the internet again and found that on parameter 8000 I needed to change PWE to 1 to enable writing to parameters - easy I thought. I pulled up 8000. went to PWE, keyed in 1 and got.... a write protect message  :doh: It turns out that you can access 8000 in about 4 different ways, but only when you go through the general settings softkey will it allow you to change PWE. I'm sure there is a logic there somewhere but it is beyond me....
So once PWE was set I could change the stroke limits... cooking by gas!! I changed them to something more reasonable and suddenly I could move full travel on everything :clap:
I though now we are there !! Start up as per instructions and everything will work,,,,, no such luck.
I dutifully followed the startup instructions in the manual until it got to zeroing. Turned the selector to the zero setting - and nothing happened. :palm:
Well I spent the next week or so trying to find out 1-if anything was supposed to happen and 2 - was there something wrong with the switch, or 3 - was I just doing it wrong.
It was at this point I got the phone call and forgot to switch everything off. When I came back - the zero switch miraculously worked. Again I don't know why - just glad it is.
I carried on to zero the x axis - which it did flawlessly. I went to do likewise with the z axis and got a hard overtravel EMG. Back to turning it back by hand.....
I decided the Euchner switch was not working so - like a fool I dived in with my multimeter and in the process shorted out a terminal and was back on the hunt for blown fuses. In the process though I established that everything seemed to be ok and noticed that both the hard and soft travel ramps that the Euchner switch rides up on were at the same point. Obviously not right so I moved the soft overtravel ramp to the centre of the z axis (for convenience) then measured the euchner switch gap to the ramp. Sure enough it was too close and had actually pushed the ramp along until the hard stop had been reached. At this point I tried passing the z axis across the soft overtravel ramp a couple of times and nothing registered. I thought it has to be the switch....
It turns out the centre pin of the switch was very stiff and it was a lack of travel in this that had resulted in the ramp being pushed along its mounting. WD40 and a bit of exercising loosened it off and all of a sudden the soft overtravel worked again. Reset the ramp in the correct position and I could zero both x and z axes !!!! Happy day!!
Next stop turret!!!
Well having followed the startup procedure as far as zeroing all I had to do was initialise the turret and the instructions said I was good to go.... but how?
I pulled the turret open and as Andrew had said it seemed like I had a Baruffaldi turret. I should mention at this point that most of the ID plates on this machine have long since worn away so I am still not sure.... Anyway more poking and prodding then off to the internet. I managed to pull up a maintenance manual for a Baruffaldi turret - much newer than mine, but it included a wiring diagram - with wire colours!!!! It didn't get any easier than this as the  colours on the diagram match all of the colours in my machine.... I messed and prodded and poked a bit more - and added a multimeter into the mix and came up with a loose wire and a bad connection. tightened and cleaned up and try again. No joy.
At this point (today actually) I was leafing through the operation manual trying to figure out if I was just doing it wrong when the MDI command page fell open in front of me. It explained in some detail how to enter MDI commands.
On the Beaver instructions after zeroing it said ' switch to MDI and enter a tool number to initialise the turret eg T0200; I had tried to do this many times with no joy.
On reading the aforementioned page it said ' in MDI enter the program softkey, then input a word to the text program. Press execute then press program start'. I thought maybe I am doing it wrong so followed the Fanuc instructions rather than the Beaver instructions. Hey presto the turret sprang into action. Well once started there was no stopping me - the spindle spun up  to 2000rpm, the quill went in and out the turret was well and truly spun and everything sprang into life. I think I may be there!!! :clap: :clap:

All I need to do now is learn how to use the machine - which was the point of getting it in the first place.......

Offline JeffK

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2019, 03:05:24 PM »
Hi Andrew - I have got both versions of the manual - Siemens and Fanuc. They are almost identical but the Siemens one has far more detail (and seems to have been written later). I was still writing when you sent your post as I have moved on significantly. I posted the pictures of the manual so that if anyone needs a reference I can help them out. Unfortunately the Fanuc manuals are a bit too big to just scan and post.
Anyway I am now up to date with the posts - if you read the last you will see where I have got to..... I have got to go away for a couple of weeks but will get back to the lathe when back in this country.... business unfortunately not pleasure....

cheers

Jeff

Offline awemawson

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2019, 03:48:44 PM »
Excellent progress  :clap:

Does your Beaver 20S manual say Gen1 or Gen2 ?

Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline JeffK

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2019, 04:12:18 PM »
Haven't noticed but will check in the morning and let you know.

Offline JeffK

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2019, 04:14:06 AM »
Hi Andrew - see photos below. From what I can see it is Gen2 (says 2ED.5.89 in the corner which I take as 2nd edition May 1989) but I'll let you judge.
cheers

Jeff

Offline awemawson

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2019, 06:56:53 AM »
My name plate says made 6/89 but is definitely a Generation One machine and my manual also like yours says 2Ed.5.89. So your manual is definitely a Generation One but I'm not sure if your actual machine is a Gen1 or Gen2 - I suspect Gen2 as it has the Baruffaldi turret you say  :scratch:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline JeffK

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2019, 02:12:40 PM »
The only name plate on it that can still be read is at the back of the cabinet on the BeakBane concertina casing and that says 03/86 - though I'm sure they probably bought in the cabinets way earlier so the manufacturing date for that part could have been that early. The 20F manual is typed though versus the 20S manual which looks more word processed.....

Offline awemawson

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2019, 02:24:19 PM »
Do you not have a date label inside the left hand front hydraulic cabinet below the headstock? Slide lathe cover closed to expose the door.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline JeffK

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2019, 04:51:56 AM »
Hi Andrew
Had a look inside the cabinet - there was a plate with just a machine serial no. of 50164 but no date. The main ID plate is on the outside above this cabinet door but the sliding door has been rubbing on it and worn most of the numbers off it. You can just make out a few letters but nothing that makes sense.
Not sure if this serial number is before or after yours?
cheers

jeff

Offline awemawson

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2019, 06:14:03 AM »
My s/n is 50255 so  91 machines after yours, so yours must be a generation one machine ! Odd with a Baruffaldi turret fitted, as I understood that they bought in the Baruffaldi ones as a cost cutting bean counter exercise as the banks started squeezing them.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline JeffK

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2019, 11:47:55 AM »
Managed to cut my first bit of nylon stock today....  :clap:then as the machine got to centre on constant surface speed it tripped the 64A breaker on the distribution board from my generator (surely shouldn't have drawn that much current with speed capped at 1000 rpm and a 1mm facing cut on nylon?). All went quiet and when I fired it back up again something tripped to give me the dreaded EMG with no indication of what is wrong. I guess I'll start searching prodding and poking again tomorrow. Any ideas would be welcome - either on the current draw or the software emergency stop. :doh:

cheers

Jeff

Offline mc

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2019, 02:51:18 PM »
What type of breaker is it?

I can never remember the types, but some can give false trips when powering switched mode supplies (aka Inverters/VFDs).

Offline hermetic

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2019, 03:26:51 PM »
Is the breaker RCD? could be a bit of earth leakage rather than overcurrent, 65A does seem massive draw for the light loading!
Man who says it cannot be done should not disturb man doing it! https://www.youtube.com/user/philhermetic/videos?

Offline awemawson

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2019, 03:46:44 PM »
Instantaneous starting current on mine, which probably has a similar sized spindle motor, is over 100 amps. Needs a type C at least, but preferably a type D breaker.

(My spindle motor is a 27.5 kW Mawdsley DC motor with an appropriately large KTK-Mentor drive )
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline JeffK

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2019, 06:40:28 AM »
Its a 63A type C Schneider circuit breaker (not RCD) which I expected to do the job. Obviously not. I guess I should upgrade....

Offline hermetic

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2019, 07:49:49 AM »
Thats one hell of an inrush current!
Man who says it cannot be done should not disturb man doing it! https://www.youtube.com/user/philhermetic/videos?

Offline philf

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Re: Yet another Beaver resurection (TC20F)
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2019, 08:11:46 AM »
Thats one hell of an inrush current!

I quite agree.

My lathe only has a 1.1 kW motor and it wouldn't notice a 10mm cut in nylon or acetal never mind a 1mm cut!

Phil.
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire