Author Topic: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed  (Read 1632 times)

Online awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7898
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« on: April 02, 2019, 02:50:07 PM »
I've had a "Toolset 350" tool setter for a LONG time. I got it to measure and set the CAT40 tools that I use on my Beaver Partsmaster CNC milling machine.

As usual, an eBay 'basket case' purchase that came out well, with the 'totally dead' problem being issues with the external power supply.

It has served me well, but as it is equipped with a female '40' taper is only any good for CAT40 (that I use) or BT40 tooling. Looking at it today, and having spent a little time trying to measure VDI40 tooling for the CNC lathe using a surface plate and height gauge I thought "if only I could use the Toolset 350"

Now when originally sold there were all sorts of adaptors for different tooling styles - actually I don't think that there were any VDI ones - but why not MAKE an adaptor.

So I pulled it's rotating base assembly apart to measure up what would be needed, cleaned it up and repaired a huge 6 mm  x 100 mm od O ring and started head scratching.

. . . then it struck me . . can I not machine one of my existing but redundant CAT40 holders to accept the 40 mm shank of a VDI40 lathe tool holder  :scratch:

. . . then in ANOTHER flash of inspiration another thought struck me - isn't 40 mm a standard size for sidelock / Weldon milling cutter shanks - there MUST be an existing CAT40 to 40mm sidelock holder as a commercial item, already nicely ground to be concentric and ready to use.

A quick ebay search found two possible contenders - a brand new BT40 one (which would do as the taper is the same) and a grotty looking CAT40 one, but the CAT40 obviously had a 'library picture' as the 'hole' was nothing like the 40 mm advertised.

The BT40 was rather pricey, so I sent a cheeky offer and meanwhile asked the seller of the CAT40 one to send a picture of the actual item.

A few iterations with Mr  BT40 brought the price down significantly, but then Mr CAT40 sent me a picture of a very presentable looking holder at a very acceptable price (35 including postage). This allowed me to decline Mr BT40's last offer and I await the arrival of the other one.

(The picture of the CAT40 socket has a ruler 'up the spout' at my request as I wanted to be sure that it would take the full depth of a VDI40 spigot)

So theoretically I can mount the VDI40 tool  to be measured in the 40 mm sidelock CAT40 holder, fit the CAT40 into the Toolset 350 and measure away to my hearts content knowing that the parts have been made to a good standard of concentricity  :clap:

I'll keep you posted how it turns out . .
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 05:55:43 AM by awemawson »
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Online awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7898
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2019, 03:20:27 PM »
I'll see if I can upload the .PDF for the Toolset 350 - it may be too large . . .


. . . oops . . .no ..... too large . . . . I'll see if I can squash it a bit !


OK split up to be smaller, but pages 9 & 10 have flow charts that each are about 2 mb so too big :(
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 05:56:06 AM by awemawson »
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline Pete.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1037
  • Country: gb
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2019, 01:16:44 AM »
That's a handy looking device. Looks expensive, I doubt you'd want to have to buy a new one.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 05:56:26 AM by awemawson »

Online awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7898
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2019, 03:06:27 AM »
I took quite a risk buying it but I was very fortunate in several ways with it. When it arrived it was barely packed at all and it was a miracle that it survived. I paid very little as it was totally dead but as I said a simple fault. Then I found out that the UK representative (PCM) was literally 3 miles down the road from me and very helpfully talked me through the setting up and adjustment, then he found that .PDF and sent it to me. Then he found his engineers notes and sent those as well :thumbup:
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 05:56:49 AM by awemawson »
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Online awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7898
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2019, 08:13:23 AM »
It seems that I paid more than I'd remembered - 220 in October 2010  :bugeye:

Still, it turned out OK in the end  :thumbup:
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 05:57:10 AM by awemawson »
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline PekkaNF

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2442
  • Country: fi
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2019, 02:49:45 AM »
So....how that works?

1: Spindle is used to swing one insert a time into measurement.

2: Display shows X/Y coordinates and indicator is adjusted to zero, to measure tip of the tool insert.

Result is X/Y offset. X ref to dia - I.E. rotational axis of the ISO40? Y from base line height (relative to gauge line)?

But how these references are zeroed? Is there a calibration plug that is known and upon touchdown known values are fed in or reset?

And how that dial mechanism. works? Stylys is mounted on flexure and main detection plane is diagonally to X/Y axis?

Probably very basic questions, but I never dwelled into CNC at personal level.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 05:57:30 AM by awemawson »

Online awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7898
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2019, 03:47:42 AM »
In it's intended use, the upper surface of the reference plane of the CAT40 socket is Z=0 and it's outer diameter is a known value that the machine uses to know where the centre of rotation is, thus where X=0.

The 'probe' can be manipulated in X & Z by coarse and fine adjustments, and when measuring the built in indicator is monitored to get it's pointer to zero for consistent readings.

In this new usage, with a CAT40 to 40 mm end mill holder I will set an offset Z=0 as the upper surface of the inserted holder upon which will rest the reference surface of the VDI40  lathe tool holder. Thus I can then measure the dimensions of the lathe tool holder which are the offset values that the lathe controller needs.

Obviously the rotational position of the lathe tool holder comes into play when measuring the tool tip distance from the axis of rotation, and I will have initially set it by eye, then rotate the holder on it's precision bearing to get a maximum reading, just as in the original application a face mill (for instance) would need rotating to a maximum for each insert.

All this is to allow me to measure some tools (probably just one tool in fact) in absolute terms, so that when I measure it again on the actual lathe using the Renishaw HPA tool probe I can compare the measurements and adjust the parameters that represent the HPA's X & Z location to give the same measured value.

At the moment the tip of the HPA is suspended in space at an approximately known position, and all tool offset measurement are relative to this fuzzy location. I want to focus the fuzz  :lol:
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 05:57:50 AM by awemawson »
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline PekkaNF

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2442
  • Country: fi
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2019, 04:48:18 AM »
Thank you Andrew, good to know that there were no black magic in it.

...

All this is to allow me to measure some tools (probably just one tool in fact) in absolute terms, so that when I measure it again on the actual lathe using the Renishaw HPA tool probe I can compare the measurements and adjust the parameters that represent the HPA's X & Z location to give the same measured value.

At the moment the tip of the HPA is suspended in space at an approximately known position, and all tool offset measurement are relative to this fuzzy location. I want to focus the fuzz  :lol:

I get it. You are going to sort of reverse calibrate (or actually set) the tool setter. Does it allow multiple "zeros"? Or just one for ISO40 holders?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 05:58:12 AM by awemawson »

Online awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7898
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2019, 04:53:29 AM »
The Toolset  does allow multiple offsets for zero, but setting them is a bit complicated. I'll probably just set it the once to the top of the CAT40 endmill holder for this exercise.

I suspect that I might have to put the holder in my cylindrical grinder and touch it up a bit to get a good repeatable surface for the VDI40 to rest on, as this is a used holder that probably has the odd bruise on it. . . time will tell when it arrives  :scratch:
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 05:58:31 AM by awemawson »
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Online awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7898
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2019, 05:36:41 AM »
So bang on cue a delivery driver has just delivered the CAT40 to 40 mm side lock adaptor.

Its in pretty fair condition, but as expected there is a bit of bruising to the upper (in this application) face - it amounts to a total deviation of about 1.5 thou.

I was thinking of touching it up with the J&S 1300 EUIR cylindrical grinder but then, realising it's not the easiest thing to set up to run true it dawned on me, all I need do is mount it in the spindle of the Beaver Partsmaster, clamp a tipped lathe tool in the vice and take a very light skim across it's face.

But that's a job for later - due in the local hospital after lunch - supposedly soluble stitches put in my blind eye over thirty years ago have surfaced and I have a 10 mm dangly bit  :bugeye: I reckon that the surgeon picked up the wrong reel of cotton  :bang:

Putting the adaptor into the Toolset and making a tentative measurement was delightfully easy - definitely the right decision rather than struggle with ad-hoc piles of 1-2-3 blocks and a height gauge on the surface plate  :clap:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Online awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7898
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2019, 06:02:59 AM »
It turns out its a "Toolset 140" or maybe a "Toolset 40" not a Toolset 350 as I had thought from the documentation that does relate to the 350 version.

The silk screen printing on the granite base of mine is rather worn and although it says '40' there is an obvious gap where the '1' of 140 probably was !

I hope that Pete and Pekka don't mind, but I've edited the titles of the posts in this thread to reflect this numeric error.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline hanermo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2019, 08:17:26 AM »
What are the resolutions and repeatability you get ?

Online awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7898
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2019, 08:35:18 AM »
Yet to measure anything properly as I need to sort that top surface of the holder.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 10:49:13 AM by awemawson »
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Online awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7898
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2019, 03:44:42 PM »
I escaped this evening to the workshop to have a go at the turning down of the holder nose that is bruised.

Choosing a random carbide tipped lathe tool from my box of bits I clamped it very firmly upright in my Kurt vice, with a parallel below to ensure that it didn't try to retreat in the face of the enemy. Then, remembering to put a pull stud in the holder I set it in the spindle, speed to 700 rpm and manual (hand wheel) feed.

Taking very small cuts it was producing wire-wool like swarf - this is a VERY hard tool holder - and not a few sparks. Inspection with a mirror showed a fair if not perfect finish, so I knocked the set up down and put the holder back in the Toolset 140 to see if I had reduced the excursions on rotation that previously had been marginally more than 1.5 thou.

Sure enough, things are now much better with the needle barely flickering, and I suspect that where it flickers it's a bit of muck in the bearing, as it can be eliminated with firm downward pressure on the disk used to rotate it.

Close examination shows a bit of micro-chatter on the surface finish that probably is totally irrelevant to my application, - I'll try and find a bit of time tomorrow to do a few more experimental measurements.

Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline PekkaNF

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2442
  • Country: fi
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2019, 02:57:48 AM »
Looking good!

Do you know what sort of mechanism translates X/Y movement into dial indicator movement? Or the stylys moves just moves diagonally and indicator is calibrated to offset the cosine error....aargh...wonder if I formulated this right.

Online awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7898
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2019, 03:54:42 AM »
Thanks Pekka.

I've not dismantled the probe end at all - I'm guessing that the carbide square bit is spring mounted with it's shaft at 45 degrees to X & Z and bearing on the dial gauge. Although there is no problem calibrating it's dial accurately for this angle, it is after all only used to find a zero point rather than itself being used as the calibrated measure. The X & Z scales (which I assume are glass) do the accurate bit.

Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline PekkaNF

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2442
  • Country: fi
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2019, 05:57:05 AM »
Thank you Andrew

You are right - of course - when zeroed, cosine error does not matter. I was thinking that in production environment there is usually a tolerance and if same (type) of zero setting device is used all over, it does not matter much, but it might get bit more confusing of multiple different devices or QC is used.

This is all very interesting.

Online awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7898
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Toolset 140 Tool Setter Re-purposed
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2019, 09:42:21 AM »
Late start getting back to this today. Our Electric front gate packed up with visitors on the wrong side :bang: Controller reporting Amp#1 fault and Encoder #1 faults - the amplifier is the main motor driver and the encoder is on the motor. A lot of faffing about revealed a motor start capacitor  that should be 9 uF actually 95 nF. Jury rigged an 8 uF that I had in  stock - too large to fit, gaffa tape and ty-wraps held it. Motor has been grunting for a while and I've been looking for a used spare but none appeared. Whole new actuator ordered 384-40  :bugeye: :bang: :bugeye:

(Originally fitted in January 2013 and has opened and closed 28,495 times !!!!)

So back to the Toolsetter !

Loading up my #1 tool and holder from the Beaver lathe and measuring it was SO easy  :thumbup:

I carefully measured it, then returned it to the lathe and measured it using the machines  Renishaw HPA setter:


Toolset 140     X = 107.165  Z = 54.417

Renishaw HPA  X = 107.194 Z = 54.394



So I conclude the the co-ordinates that I have for the HPA probe are marginally out

To-date I've been adjusting Tool Offsets to achieve accuracy but now hopefully I can tweak the parameters that are the HPA co-ordinates so that it GIVES me accuracy. Well one can but hope  :lol:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex