Author Topic: OLD LATHE  (Read 994 times)

Offline celsoari

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: br
OLD LATHE
« on: November 07, 2019, 06:11:31 PM »
Hello, my name is Celso and I'm from Brazil. I bought a lathe to reform and I don't know its brand and type. Can anyone help me with this information?
Attached photos
thankful
Celso Ari
Greetings from Brazil

Offline Sea.dog

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 44
  • Country: gb
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2019, 06:32:07 PM »
You need to reduce the resolution of your pictures so that they're more viewable.

Offline celsoari

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: br
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2019, 06:57:25 PM »
reduce photos
Greetings from Brazil

Online Pete.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: gb
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2019, 07:59:15 PM »
Lathes only lists one lathe from the maker STB - a precision bench lathe. Yours looks to be a screwcutting engine lathe. It appears fairly stout.

How about posting some more photos of the various parts, especially the headstock plaque. What length bed is it and what centre height?

Online Pete.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: gb
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2019, 08:17:19 PM »
After looking around it seems that STB isn't the maker but a long past importer of German automobiles before WW2 Sociedade Technica Bremensis. Probably explains the Mercedes sign.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.dkwcandango.com.br/2aAutoUnion/AutoUnionBrasil.htm&prev=search

It may make the machine of German origin perhaps? I have an idea I've seen those funny clock-winder changewheel retainers somewhere before but I cannot think where.

Offline AdeV

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2251
  • Country: gb
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2019, 03:56:16 AM »
It looks like a South Bend clone to me, probably dating from the 1930s at a guess. No idea what make, unfortunately.
Cheers!
Ade.
--
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside. A long way from anywhere.
Or: Zhengzhou, China. An even longer way from anywhere...
Skype: adev73

Offline RussellT

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 449
  • Country: gb
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2019, 04:37:40 AM »
I agree it has a lot of similarities to a South Bend.  There is a page on the lathes.co.uk website http://www.lathes.co.uk/southbend9-inch/page3.html which shows lots of South Bend Clones, including one from Brazil (Sanches Blanes) which I thought might fit the name on the lathe until I looked more closely.

I think the plate says Sociedade Technica Bremensis but it also has a Mercedes badge.  That's interesting because there is a Mercedes factory in Bremen.

Russell
Common sense is unfortunately not as common as its name suggests.

Offline celsoari

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: br
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2019, 01:37:21 PM »
Lathes only lists one lathe from the maker STB - a precision bench lathe. Yours looks to be a screwcutting engine lathe. It appears fairly stout.

How about posting some more photos of the various parts, especially the headstock plaque. What length bed is it and what centre height?

28" long bed (without the head)
centre height: 5"


I need photos and information to rebuild some missing parts like gear protection, thread table and feeds, etc
Greetings from Brazil

Offline celsoari

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: br
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2019, 01:49:56 PM »
I agree it has a lot of similarities to a South Bend.  There is a page on the lathes.co.uk website http://www.lathes.co.uk/southbend9-inch/page3.html which shows lots of South Bend Clones, including one from Brazil (Sanches Blanes) which I thought might fit the name on the lathe until I looked more closely.

I think the plate says Sociedade Technica Bremensis but it also has a Mercedes badge.  That's interesting because there is a Mercedes factory in Bremen.

Russell
Great clue linking the name Bremen with Mercedes
Greetings from Brazil

Online Pete.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: gb
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2019, 05:46:00 PM »
I don't see much 'South Bend' in that machine. The bed shape, tumbler, compound swivel mount are totally different and the bed is much more stout than a 10" South Bend of any era.

Celsoari after all the things we have seen you make I'm sure that bashing up a sheet metal gear cover would be no problem. If you want some help with a threading chart let us know what pitch the leadscrew is and what tooth counts you have on the gears  that are with it. The rest will be easy to work out.

Pete.

Offline RussellT

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 449
  • Country: gb
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2019, 01:37:29 PM »
Well, looking at the enlarged logo the teeth on the outside make it nothing like a Mercedes logo.

However Google finds a couple of reference to Sociedade Technica Bremensis Ltda with an address in Rio.  One of them is about elimination of German resources for war suggesting it's a German company so I'd guess it was imported from Germany.

This link https://teses.usp.br/teses/disponiveis/16/16134/tde-01092016-154117/pt-br.php is quite specific about it being a Brazilian/German company.

Russell
Common sense is unfortunately not as common as its name suggests.

Offline celsoari

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: br
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2019, 09:24:24 AM »
I don't see much 'South Bend' in that machine. The bed shape, tumbler, compound swivel mount are totally different and the bed is much more stout than a 10" South Bend of any era.

Celsoari after all the things we have seen you make I'm sure that bashing up a sheet metal gear cover would be no problem. If you want some help with a threading chart let us know what pitch the leadscrew is and what tooth counts you have on the gears  that are with it. The rest will be easy to work out.

Pete.

Thank you Mr. Pete. The lead screw has 8 teeth per inch,  and the spindle gear has 26 teeth.
I found a restorer who makes the plate threading chart (as in the example of the attached photo), I just need a photo or drawing to model.
if anyone has can send.
(sorry my english is not very good, we speak portuguese here in Brazil)

Celso Ari
Greetings from Brazil

Online Pete.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: gb
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2019, 09:29:50 AM »
You're doing fine with your English Celso.

If it's a 8tpi screw it's less likely to be of German origin.

What tooth counts do all your other gears have?

Offline celsoari

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: br
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2019, 11:17:20 AM »
You're doing fine with your English Celso.

If it's a 8tpi screw it's less likely to be of German origin.

What tooth counts do all your other gears have?

 have 16, 18, 32,32, 44, 48,52,56, 60,64,72,80,90,100,127 t.
Greetings from Brazil

Online Pete.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: gb
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2019, 03:10:01 PM »
You're doing fine with your English Celso.

If it's a 8tpi screw it's less likely to be of German origin.

What tooth counts do all your other gears have?

 have 16, 18, 32,32, 44, 48,52,56, 60,64,72,80,90,100,127 t.

Ah, now you're talking. You can do metric threads with the 127 tooth gear.

One more question. There is a gear behind the one marked in green. Should be 26 teeth. Can you confirm this?


Offline celsoari

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: br
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2019, 03:53:16 PM »
You're doing fine with your English Celso.

If it's a 8tpi screw it's less likely to be of German origin.

What tooth counts do all your other gears have?

 have 16, 18, 32,32, 44, 48,52,56, 60,64,72,80,90,100,127 t.

Ah, now you're talking. You can do metric threads with the 127 tooth gear.

One more question. There is a gear behind the one marked in green. Should be 26 teeth. Can you confirm this?

yes there is behind a 26 teeth gear too
Greetings from Brazil

Online Pete.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: gb
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2019, 04:34:29 PM »
Cool, looks like you're off to a good start. Let me see what threads you can cut with your current selection.

In this pic you have a gear on the leadscrew. There should be a spacer behind it that you can remove to have the spacer either in front or behind the gear. Can you swap these around as shown by the arrows?

Offline celsoari

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: br
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2019, 05:25:54 PM »
Cool, looks like you're off to a good start. Let me see what threads you can cut with your current selection.

In this pic you have a gear on the leadscrew. There should be a spacer behind it that you can remove to have the spacer either in front or behind the gear. Can you swap these around as shown by the arrows?

yes I can swap them back and forth by changing the position of the spacer and gear.
Greetings from Brazil

Offline celsoari

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: br
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2019, 06:50:09 PM »
I suspect this lathe is a Portass. There are some similarities. The cover of the reduction train gears are identical. The support of flat pulleys is also identical.
however the bed and feet are quite different.
Greetings from Brazil

Online Pete.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: gb
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2019, 08:33:04 PM »
Okay, using the program nthreadp from here it looks like you can get most of the common imperial and metric threads with the gears you have got. The only really common one you can't get is 1.75mm pitch (which is the pitch for M12 coarse).

The threads you can't get are in red. Those threads need additional gears (missing option in red also)

Where it says I you can put any gear that will fit, as it just need an idler to fill the gap. For this you have to swap the spacer on the screw gear to the front so it's a simple gear train not compounded.

EDIT:New MM chart uploaded to remove errors. I've had to change it due to finding some errors but it's fully checked now and correct.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 06:23:39 AM by Pete. »

Online Pete.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: gb
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2019, 08:47:32 PM »
Another thing to watch out for is that some of the gear ratios in the table might not physically fit. You can only find this out by trying. You can swap the drivers and the driven gears around though. The stud gear and the B gear are drivers. The A gear and the Screw gear are driven. So stud gear and B can be swapped and Screw gear and A can be swapped - or both if you need to.

It's just a matter of seeing what will fit before you go and have a proper chart engraved. If you just can't make a combination work then get the program in the link above, load your gear set into it and use it to generate a list of optional gear trains. Sometimes there are dozens of options.

EDIT: gear chart with errors removed
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 06:18:58 AM by Pete. »

Offline celsoari

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: br
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2019, 07:36:45 AM »
Another thing to watch out for is that some of the gear ratios in the table might not physically fit. You can only find this out by trying. You can swap the drivers and the driven gears around though. The stud gear and the B gear are drivers. The A gear and the Screw gear are driven. So stud gear and B can be swapped and Screw gear and A can be swapped - or both if you need to.

It's just a matter of seeing what will fit before you go and have a proper chart engraved. If you just can't make a combination work then get the program in the link above, load your gear set into it and use it to generate a list of optional gear trains. Sometimes there are dozens of options.

EDIT: gear chart with errors removed

Thank you Mr Pete, I couldn't thank you for the information. Now things are much easier.
Greetings from Brazil

Offline RussellT

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 449
  • Country: gb
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2019, 07:48:38 AM »
I suspect this lathe is a Portass. There are some similarities. The cover of the reduction train gears are identical. The support of flat pulleys is also identical.
however the bed and feet are quite different.
Hi Celso
I agree the back gear covers are so similar that it can't just be a coincidence, but what intrigued me about the idea that it was a Portass was that all Portass lathes had flat beds and yours has inverted V ways.  I would imagine that Portass would have needed a completely different set up to machine that.  As I understand it inverted V ways were much more common in the USA so perhaps it was made there and someone copied the top part of the headstock.

Have you tried emailing Tony at lathes.co.uk?  I've just been looking at his site and I've come across this page http://www.lathes.co.uk/brown-dandy/index.html  Near the bottom of the page there are some pictures of a Dandy which appears to have several similar features.

Russell
Common sense is unfortunately not as common as its name suggests.

Offline celsoari

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: br
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2019, 05:14:33 PM »

[/quote]
Hi Celso
I agree the back gear covers are so similar that it can't just be a coincidence, but what intrigued me about the idea that it was a Portass was that all Portass lathes had flat beds and yours has inverted V ways.  I would imagine that Portass would have needed a completely different set up to machine that.  As I understand it inverted V ways were much more common in the USA so perhaps it was made there and someone copied the top part of the headstock.

Have you tried emailing Tony at lathes.co.uk?  I've just been looking at his site and I've come across this page http://www.lathes.co.uk/brown-dandy/index.html  Near the bottom of the page there are some pictures of a Dandy which appears to have several similar features.

Russell
[/quote]

Hi Russell
I had also seen The Brown Dandy, and found some similarities: feet, rack handle, and the electric motor train. Did you see any more similarities?
I wrote to Tony, yes, but unfortunately he didn't answer me.
greetings
Celso Ari
Greetings from Brazil

Offline RussellT

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 449
  • Country: gb
Re: OLD LATHE
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2019, 06:09:46 AM »
Hi Celso

My experience is that Tony is quite good at responding to email - and he specifically asks owners to contact him on the Dandy page - so if you've given him a few days to reply I think I'd probably try again - maybe your email was caught by a spam trap.

From that comment you will guess that I think it's a Dandy.  There seem to be more similarities than differences.  The top (compound) slide looks the same.  The saddle, apron and cross slide look the same with the exception of the covers for ways which look like they're not original.  The cross slide hand wheel is different but that could be a change for different years of manufacture.  The feet look the same and the bed looks the same.  The layout of the changewheels looks the same and the fixing for the missing cover looks the same.  The part of the banjo (quadrant) that I can see looks the same. The tumble reverse lever uses the same pin type position selector.  The tail stock doesn't look quite the same as the base looks too small but the hand wheel looks to be a good match for the others on your lathe.

The headstock is the main difference and I agree that the top of the headstock is a copy of the Portass but I can't believe the rest of the lathe is because the top of the bed isn't flat.

On lathes.co.uk the page on Brown and Dandy says that Dandys had plain bearing headstocks and Browns had roller bearing headstocks which I think makes your lathe a Dandy, almost certainly made before 1937 because of the difference to the ones shown in the 1937 catalogue.

There is a thread on Practical Machinist with some more Dandy pictures https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-history/dandy-metal-lathe-ebay-ended-205235/ with the name of an owner in the USA.  That thread also suggests that they copied parts from other lathes.

Russell

Common sense is unfortunately not as common as its name suggests.