Author Topic: Boxford 8" shaper  (Read 54264 times)

Offline raynerd

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2009, 08:44:46 AM »
Darren
I totally appreciate what you are saying - I`m giving in a little easy. To be honest, I`d be more persistant if I had room for it but it is much bigger than I thought - I didn`t realise the base homed the motor and was driven from underneath. This doesn`t help me because my workshop has a ledge running around the top where my machines go and there isn`t room for original cabinets. For example, my Boxford lathe - the bench is in storage at parents and the lathe itself mounts perfectly on the worktop but with the shaper I can`t do that - it needs to be on the bench. This obviously takes up floor space!

So I`m certainly not one to be defeated and realise that with a bit of effort I could get this going. I`m really wanting to keep it but realistically, I think for the sake of space and then factoring in the effort to convert the motor, it needs to go. Pitty and I really don`t want to.

Offline raynerd

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2009, 12:52:23 PM »
Well Darren, you have convinced me to keep it - I moved it this morning to my parents garage where it will stay until I source a suitable motor replacement. Just a couple of questions because I know your the man when it comes to electrics - Do you think that a replacement of the 3phase with a similar single phase would be a better option than a converter/inverter, with the knowledge that my electrics are pretty poor? Secondly, if that is the case - Obviously I`d need to match the power output but how would I know the physical dimensions for a perfect fit, is it just a case of measuring up or should the current 3ph motor plate tell me this info? - not knowing anything about motors, are there standard sizes or is it unlikely I`ll get a direct match and have to fabricate/modify the machine to accept a replacement? Looking at the plate details I posted earlier, of the current 3 phase motor, is there any way to find the physical size.

Any advice welcome.

Chris
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 01:12:40 PM by craynerd »

Offline Darren

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2009, 02:37:34 PM »
Chris,

I'm not that well up on motors, but here's a stab at it.

They are sized physicaly by "Frame Size" but what you need to know is the diameter of the body, length and how much spare room you have. Then the physical mounting points style and spacing. Lastly the output shaft diameter.

Often you don't need like for like as some of it can be worked around.

3 phase supplies can be real handy if you are looking for more 3ph machinery to add to your workshop. I think you are probably not going to do that and 3ph is far more dangerous than single ph if you don't know what you are doing.

Personally I would think the shaper would be just as happy on single phase and if it were mine, even though I have 3ph I would change the motor to single ph.

Why? Well 3ph power supplies don't come cheap, I bought what I could afford at the time I needed one and could only stretch to 3hp or 2.2kw. That means that realistically I can only run one 3ph machine at a time. OK why would I want to run two you might ask? Some machines can be left to get on with a job if they have auto stops. My shaper has such and so do most air compressors. My new mill will have this ability as well. Compressors you tend to just leave on and they kick in and out when needed. the shaper can be a slow tool so handy to set it up and let it get on with the job while you do something else. BUT DON'T LEAVE THE ROOM .
3ph tools are generally much cheaper than single phase as there is a never ending que of customers for them.

The decision must be yours and no-one can really advise you what to do. However, knowing your ablilites with electrics I would stear clear of 3ph. I don't mean to patronise, it's just that things can start to get complicated in this area.

I hope that helps... :dremel:

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Offline raynerd

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2009, 02:46:32 PM »
Cheers Darren

"I don't mean to patronise, it's just that things can start to get complicated in this area." - absolutely spot on - last thing I want to do is  :zap: and with it being at my parents for the time being, I certainly don`t want to zap them!  I think perhaps a good start would be to remove the current 3ph motor, measure it up and then get it listed on ebay. This way, I`ll figure out the size and how it is installed and since I`ll never have a use for it, it may as well help fund my replacement.

Thanks again for all your advice.

Chris

Offline Darren

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2009, 02:50:21 PM »
Tip,

Join Freecycle ( like Craigs list in the US) and ask if anyone has a motor there, I got a 3ph one to make a rotary converter that way.

Alas 240/440V transformers are not so easy to come by or cheap and I needed 440V 3ph for my lathe.

However I did manage to make a 330V 3ph supply to test my lathe with with a very common transformer that is real easy to find. Alas, although the lathe ran fine in low speeds there was not enough juice to power the high speeds.

I tried to get a 240/440V transformer wound for me, but it was cheaper to just buy a comercial 3ph converter. So that is what I did in the end.

PS, if anyone has any 240/440V single phase transformers I would be very interested. Even if you just tell me where you got it from.... :thumbup:

A 3ph motor that can be wired in Delta mode is a dodle to run on single phase, but only if you know exactly what you are doing.
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Offline NickG

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2009, 05:06:27 PM »
Craynerd,

As your motor is the more desirable dual voltage (can be wired in delta) you could use the inverter  ... still quite an expensive option though at £135 from the website I showed you. For your needs it would be much better to source a 3/4 hp single phase motor. Actually, they usually say to go up the next size when swapping to a single phase as there's less torque I think (is that right Darren?)

For my Harrison lathe I swapped the 1 1/2 hp 3 phase that was on it for a 1500 watt single phase from here: http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axminster-240V-Electric-Motors-29787.htm The motor seems to work well, very happy with it so far.

On the Harrison it was a fairly easy swap as the bed plate was adjustable in both planes. The only issues were 1. that the diameter of the shaft was larger so I had to bore the existing pulley out on another lathe and I used a tool winding the carriage back and forth to cut the key way. 2. the exisiting switch gear couldn't be wired up as it was actuated by 440v coil. I guess to make things neater I could have some how got this rewound to 240v? but I opted for just using the 240v one I had spare.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Darren

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2009, 05:10:47 PM »
And with that I eletrocuted myself tonight !!!!

Even worse the trip didn't ....trip that is....have to get a new one methinks....

Wet lead on the cement mixer......didn't even touch the plug... :zap:

Be carefull out there  :dremel:
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Offline Darren

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2009, 05:22:27 PM »
they usually say to go up the next size when swapping to a single phase as there's less torque I think (is that right Darren?)


Not quite but almost

A single phase motor pulses it's power between the phases,

A 3ph motor does not pulse as when one phase is ramping down the next is ramping up so there is in effect no change. Therefore the power is constant and not pulsing and you can get away with a smaller motor frame (this is not the same as less power). This is why some 3ph machines can give such a good finish over the same machine with a single phase motor. A mill for example.
But on a shaper I seriously doubt it would make any difference with the mass of the ram moving.

The main reason 3ph motors are used is because they are 150% more efficient over single phase motors. This is not insignificant in just one machine, let alone a large workshop full of them.
It is also why when running a 3ph rotarty converter (running an idle motor to generate the third phase) along with a machine motor, it is no more costly to run than a single phase motor on it's own of the same size.

But at the end of the day one horsepower is one horsepower as 1Kw is 1Kw. The difference is in how much electricity each uses.


« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 05:25:57 PM by Darren »
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Offline kvom

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2009, 05:37:26 PM »
Most home workshop compressors here have 1PH 220V motors, so there is no load issue.

I am running both a 2HP VFD (mill) and a 7.5HP RPC (lathe).  Neither was difficult to wire up.  Unless the cost for 3PH is exhorbitant, I believe that getting 3PH power will be easier than trying to refit a 1PH motor as long as you go with a good commercial unit.   Given 3 power and 1 ground lead to the motor or its switch, you just tie the corresponding outputs with wire nuts, close the joints inside an enclosure, and you're good.  When you start it up, check the motor rotation, and if reversed just swap any two of the power leads.


Offline Darren

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2009, 05:45:50 PM »
Kvom,

I belive it is customary in the US to have 220V 3ph..?

3ph in the UK is 440V, converters at 440V are very expensive compared to 220V converters which are quite affordable.

This is why dual voltage motors 220/440V (delta/wye) are so attractive here, but alas not too easily found.

Having 3ph mains brought into your home is prohibitivly expensive and most of the time the power companies would refuse you anyway if they don't see you using enough to generate an attractive bill.
You might want to see this

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=1042.msg12108#msg12108
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Offline Darren

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2009, 07:07:39 PM »
This has re-kindled my idea of getting the lister engine running,

It could turn a 3ph motor to generate a very effective 3 phase electricity supply. 3ph motors work just as well as 3ph generators if they are turned by something. Could be another single phase motor but it needs to be higher HP to cover losses.

The listers coolant tank could then be the underfloor heating pipes or a domestic radiator and lets not forget the heat from the engine itself.

I had planned to run it on used vegitable oil instead of diesel of which I have a plentiful free supply.

We shall see....maybe later....
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Offline Darren

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2009, 05:39:44 PM »
(this is a long winded post and I make no excuses for it, as long as it helps  :thumbup:)

Chris,
It was too hot for me today to do anything on the house or garage, I don't like the heat,

So I decided to go into the cool basement and play with the shaper instead. I did a bit of fiddling, tidying up some dials and adjusting the belts.

To give it a whirl to see what it could do after some adjustments I decided to give it a real tough job by cleaning up the rusty-est bit of metal I had to hand. This is cold rolled steel. I had some similar recently that I could not drill or mill. It just broke tools.
It was suggest by some members on here that ageing this sort of material by leaving it to rust forms a real tough skin which is not only hard but also abrasive to tooling.
I would not want nor suggest that you put a milling cutter anywhere near it. Too expensive to destroy in one pass.... :bang:
But lathe tools on the other hand are cheap, and HSS is easily re-ground to form a new edge when it dulls.
I machined all the surfaces here with no re-sharpening, heck I didn't even touch the bit up for this job from the last time I used it.

Well it don't come any rustier than this piece I'm about to demonstrate.....btw, I long ago asked Helen to keep an eye out for any bits of metal on her travels when walking the dog. She's dragged home bits and bobs inc this one which is from a bar over six feet long....!! I've no idea how she managed it cos it sure was heavy... :clap:


Here I have adjusted the shaper to a high speed , gear No4, and short stroke. Best to keep the stroke as short as you can to use all the power in that distance. If you doubled the length of the stroke you would only have half the power whilst cutting. Worse if you more than doubled it. I'm using a lathe tungsten tip here.
Cutting depth 50 thou/1.3mm table transverse 10thou per stroke.



A video to give another aspect to what I'm trying to describe. Cutting depth 50 thou/1.3mm table transverse 10thou per stroke.



Here you can see I have turned the work 90 degrees and at the same time lengthened the stroke. This saves cutting time as the table has less distance to travel. However, because of the longer stroke I needed to use the next lower gear, No3. I've changed to a HSS toolbit.





Now turned the plate on its side



First pass halfway across.  Cutting depth 50 thou/1.3mm table transverse 10thou per stroke.



First pass all the way across



2nd pass, Cutting depth 50 thou/1.3mm table transverse 10thou per stroke.





Final pass, setting changed to Cutting depth 5 thou transverse 5 thou per stroke.




As you can probably tell, my machine is only small and has a 1/3rd HP single phase motor. I was mostly using 3rd speed of four and it barely cut 50thou/1.3mm depth. Mind you I think that's impressive as it is. I could have used 2nd speed to give more power but it would have taken longer.

But, please bear this in mind, even at 1/3rd power it broke the vice tonight and I had to carry out a small repair job on the milling machine before I could carry on. On the vice there is a little clamping plate below that holds the moveable jaw down. The srew that fixes it sheared under the pull of the cutting forces. I had to mill it out and re-tap the vice in order to fix it. (and I didn't have a jam, this was just normal cutting forces)
I say all this as I hear talk of fitting 1HP motors to shapers....that's 3 times the power that I have.

Now just imagine if you get a jam, my motors stalls, 1HP could tear the machines inner workings to bits........just a thought I think you should consider.

It great thinking if you can give it more power to plough through the cutting process, but bear in mind that the machine is also feeling the pressure and just may not like it.
This applies to any machine, shaper mill, lathe etc. I have seen many mini lathes fitted with huge motors...I wonder how long they last....











« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 07:00:15 PM by Darren »
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2009, 07:02:45 PM »
Darren, fantastic - absolutely amazing, thanks for all the effort. the videos are excellent and you have certainly clarified the ability of these little machines. I totally take onboard what you were saying regarding fitting a too highly powered motor. I have actually been working on my shaper today by cleaning it up and removing the motor. I spent a few hours this afternoon ringing around for prices and also visiting one that was in loot - unfortunately the size was no-where close and the mounting points totally different, would have been a real pain to try and fit. I did happen to speak to someone who offered me a replacement motor for 120 quid but said that it is a chinease import and wouldn`t be very useful. I finally went to RDGtools to pick up my clamping kit and mentioned I had this shaper and was on the hunt for a motor. Apparently they have a bloke who comes in Mon and Thursdays who re-wires them to Delta and fits an inverter - I`ve emailed him all the motor details for an exact price but he guessed at about 100 quid. Now that is a big price considering you guessed I could pick up a motor for much much less, but I`m thinking that this is a good quality Brook Crompton and for the hastle of trying to modify the housing to fit a new motor, it may be worth while to save up for a few weeks (put the er32 collet chuck on hold!!) and just go with the inverter .... what do you think? I suppose we are going around in circles, I think we`ve had this discussion before but I`m inclined now to go down this route. The inverter idea put me off earlier because I wasn`t confident at wiring it but if it is done for me, than perhaps this is the way to go.

Anyway, thanks again for your pics, vids and writing. You certainly showed me how impressive these little shapers are in action and highlighted some key points to consider. I`m so pleased I didn`t sell this machine in the end.

By the way, just out of interest, I`m missing the crank handle to manually turn it for the checks before you turn it on, not an essential bit of kit but just out of curiousity, I emailed Boxford and apparently they still provide old parts and will cost 25 quid inc postage. Can`t believe they still provide spares!!

Thanks again, Darren.

All the best.
Chris
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 07:06:25 PM by craynerd »

Offline raynerd

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2009, 07:04:15 PM »
Darren, if you get an opportunity, could you take a piccy of the lathe HSS tool you are using? I just want to see a bit clearer the profile.

Offline Darren

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Offline raynerd

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2009, 02:45:22 AM »
First one is a very good image just with it being from an angle, I can`t quite see - is the cutting surface the full width of the tool or is it actually just the far edge, or part of the far edge. I think I`m with it, I guess it is just a case of grinding one from a HSS blank and seeing how it performes. It is actually different profile than any lathe turning tool I have seen, or at least that I use. It has more of a hooked end.

Cheers, Darren


Offline Darren

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2009, 02:50:17 AM »
The cutting edge is rounded, it's not really hooked just raked back a bit.

It's just experimental, try grinding some different shapes and see how they perform.
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Offline Darren

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2009, 09:36:13 AM »
Does this mean I can get rid of my powered hacksaw to save space   :lol:

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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2009, 09:55:53 AM »
I like that setup Darren!  :thumbup: :clap: :clap:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Darren

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2009, 11:32:10 AM »
Not mine David, but an interesting idea, just not sure about the down feed. I suppose if the clapper was open slightly then it would work fine as it closes whilst the blade drops.

Here is another idea that should apeal to those with limited space or funds. I grinding head fitted to the slide.

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Offline raynerd

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2009, 02:48:40 PM »
Anyone any idea how I would source a replacement tin/can of green boxford paint? There are a few patches that need repainting and touching up. I presume someone must supply it or any recommendations for a match - even then how would I send a sample?
I tried eye-balling a colour at a local car parts shop but it looks no-where near a "snap"!

Appreciate any reply.

Chris

Offline CrewCab

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2009, 03:05:45 PM »
Have a look on the Yahoo group Chris, but IIRC there never really was a "standard" so there are innumerable shades of Boxford green out there, best take a chip to your local paint mixing place and see what they can do .......... to be fair you'll probably be best painting it all though if you want something pleasing to the eye.

CC

Offline raynerd

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2009, 06:52:43 AM »
I understand ... and thought that that may be the case. Infact, after reading your post I went to look at my boxford shaper and lathe and as you said, they are different shades, the shaper is more of a lime green and the lathe a fraction darker.

Cheers
Chris

Offline raynerd

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2009, 04:09:29 PM »
A bit of an update on the shaper front - I got myself a single phase motor, £15 and it is a 1hp, 1425rpm and the mounting plate matches exactly to the original one with the spindle also seeming to be a match! I haven`t started any sort of assembly - just got the motor home and did a comparison.

Plate says: HP1. Rating Cont, Class E. V220/240. A 50. Rev/min 1425. c/s50.BS Frame B56. EE frame MJCK624. Diagram 20028.Cap 12uf 130uf. L4713/5. AM 1 67 , Capacitor run, capacitor start.





Do you think this will be suitable?  :doh: I`m just concerned what the capcitor start and run thing means, from what I have read it just means that it starts and runs at full torque? Also, the motor is a little bigger than the original but the square box at the top really bumps up the size, what is that? Still fits in the base as there is plenty of space.

Chris


Offline rleete

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Re: Boxford 8" shaper
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2009, 04:52:49 PM »
Athe square box at the top really bumps up the size, what is that?

That's the capacitor.
Creating scrap, one part at a time