An Ill Wind

[klank]

A bit of a shaggy Dog story, but it may be interesting :-

Earlier in April this year, I traded my first small lathe - a Chester DB7 - for a new Sieg C4 from Axminster power Tool Centre (usual disclaimer). I wanted a bigger, more powerful lathe and one with T slots on the top slide. Both lathes are electronically controlled variable speed types.
The Chester lathe has gone to the "tool room" of a nearby village hot shot competition-car tune-up garage - didn't loose much on it as I'd only had it for about 18 months from new, since starting this hobby, and the garage owner wanted it.
(In retrospect - I should have bought the Sieg first, but then I did not know enough about lathes to make an informed choice. The saying "get the biggest you can" is so true.)

The one advantage that the Chester had, was that the lathe motor speed was set by a rotary pot - very easy to use and responds instantly to twiddling if things are getting too exciting.

The Sieg has a funky membrane type touch-pad contol with spindle speed digital read out - in blue!! - too funky for its own good I now realise.
Lathe motor speed control is by an Up/Down pair of pads - not the easiest way of speeding up or slowing down since you have to take your eye off the work and find the little b*****s to tap on with greasy fingertip.
The panel also has green start/red stop pads (also hard to find quickly) and clockwise/anti-clockwise rotation pads.
Below those is an Emergency Stop - "top hat" button - twist to release. Hitting this, and releasing re-sets the speed to the lowest setting automatically on re-start.
I have got into the habit of using this rather than the red touch pad (which does not re-set the speed if used) in "urgent" circumstances.

Anyway, I was machining a piece of steel in the 3 jaw with the power feed on, got to where I wanted to be and hit the emergency stop - NOTHING HAPPENED!!! The lathe kept on running quite happily, and before I could find the red pad, tool hit chuck - plink noise and broken lathe tool. Fortunately no injury to self.

I re-tested the button several times and it had absolutely no effect. I assumed "dud switch".
I removed the panel and looked at it - no wires off, no swarf in there. I tested the switch with a continuity meter (mains power disconnected) - switch works fine. There are 4 wires to it - two fat black ones (one comes in from the main rocker on/off master switch and the other goes into the bowels of the machine (mains current I assume). The other two are thinner (blue) and disappear into the bowels - low voltage wires to sensor perhaps?
I removed all of the wires from the switch and still the lathe ran with no problem! WTH is going on?
The "manual" which comes with the lathe has a wiring block-diagram - not easy to understand. No labels on it showing the various switches etc.

I telephoned Axminster - to ask for help and to be fair, the "technical" help guy was excellent - initially, he couldn't believe what was happening and very sorry about the problem. We talked it through and (like me) came to the conclusion that the problem must rest on the main power circuit board (which is fan cooled and hidden inside the headstock casing).
Fortunately, I only live about 18 miles form Axminster's premises - they would send "The Man" out next day to have a look - and right now he would have a look/play with the demo. model they had in the showroom to see if he could figure the problem out. He went on to say that they (APTC) had never ever had a problem with this lathe before - in all the years they had been selling it not one had ever come in for repairs. I suggested that The Man bought a spare power board with him.

The Man (John) called at my house the next day at the appointed time. After introductions and putting the coffee on,
we both tried to figure out the wiring block-diagram. After much testing with my continuity meter eventually made some sense of it. The lathe is designed to accommodate, as an optional extra, a small bolt on vertical mill to (thus) turn it into a "machining centre". The two fat black wires on the emergency switch have nothing to do with the lathe but go from mains in, via the emergency button to the mains socket on the back of the machine, into which is plugged the mains cable to the milling circuitry. The emergency stop switch thus controlling both "machines".
The two blue wires are connected to a "sub-unit" on the main lathe power board, and when the emergency switch is (opened), the unit should shut everything down, and re-set the lathe motor speed to lowest at re-start. That "unit" appeared to have failed.
APTC did not have a spare board in stock and one will be air freighted from Taiwan for John to fit next week.
As a short term fix, he piggy backed the emergency switch to the micro-switch operated by the chuck-guard. (The chuck guard and stud fittings having been removed by me on first receipt of the machine - it fouls the 4 jaw and face plate. John smiled at seeing this - "everyone does it - its a piece of poorly designed add-on that gets by current safety legislation" he said)
The emergency switch now turns the machine off properly but does not re-set the speed - this I can live with.

Before John left, he said "Got any use for a rotary table?" and plonked down a top of the range 6" rotable on my workbench - "Don't ask" he said - a gesture from him to say "sorry" for my troubles!!! What a handsome and unexpected present! I suspect it may have been a customer return or some such - but it looks brand new and seems to work perfectly.

As luck would have it, John noticed my big amateur radio dipole antenna sitting above the house - he too is a licensed (ham) radio operator - we got on well. He promised to bring some other goodies from the "returns" bin and or warehouse skip next time he comes.

An ill wind which blew in my favour I'd say.

[PTsideshow]

  Glad to hear a good story, with the bad ones going the rounds. My wifey is now home and not much prospect of ever getting hired again. Age, Health problems etc. so that means a big change in my retired life style. More honey do's a long with the house chores she can no longer do    Then getting a letter yesterday my builders supply/hardware is closing have had an account with them for 30 years. Close down the street and round the corner.

Special discount, bonus gift If I bring the envelope, with the invite to pre public sale. Plus $2,000 closing bonus bucks. I had though t That I hit the jackpot  . That is till I find out today everybody with two postal zip codes got the same letter  and now I don't feel so "Special" just hope they have one more box of vinyl siding By GP (which they Georgia Pacific no longer distributes)

Man it's been a bummer of a week so far! So it's nice to hear some body coming out on top of the pile instead of buried half way in it.

  good on ya!
glen

[Darren]

Wow, I bet you're chuffed    ....I had a similar thing when visiting someone recently

I must get around to setting it up as I think I'm going to need it soon....

[DeereGuy]

Peter glad to hear they not only showed up but are taking care of you very well.  Can't wait to see that rotary table!  Talk to you soon....

[klank]

Well, thanks for the good wishes everyone.

Glen - I know what you mean - I got "retired" from 35 years work as a surveyor a while back (back injury) and given a modest pension, then last month, out of the blue - wife made redundant from job she had for last seven years (she has a bad back too). No chance of either of us finding work now. (Bless her, my XYL let me get the new lathe as a silver wedding and birthday present combined - her job "went" a couple of weeks later!)
Our dog just developed diabetes (cost of insulin is horrendous), two sons in university - can no longer help them with rent or living costs, then yesterday (separate thread re. rain!) really really heavy rainstorm (thunder lightning et al.) and big leak appears in felt roof of porch/garage (workshop).

All in all, until yesterday life was getting to be a bit of a bummer - just occasionally a bit of sun shines.

Got to keep smiling.

[HS93]

I wonder How many licensed (ham) radio operator's there are on hear .

Peter

G0PAH

(no longer alowed to play )

[PTsideshow]

I wonder How many licensed (ham) radio operator's there are on hear .

Peter

G0PAH

Never wrote for my license, and just did the Shortwaver listener!

I did renew my unlimited Stationary Engineers license each year I have been retired, and just registered for the new state of Michigan Licensing program (can you say Money generator!)  After paying my $80.00 a year fee I now can legally place the Letters C.S.E after my name.
Certified Stationary Engineer.

Mainly did it in case they change the rules and ya need the state license to get a job. Besides I don't want to take the 2 1/2 days testing again.  Will be trying to hold off going back to work as long as I can.
glen

[klank]

Peter - I think you are quite correct. (by the way - me = G7NBZ)

There is an "old timer" (model) engineer (Alan Stepney) who posts on another UK forum - and maintains a very good web-site - full of tech. data http://www.alanstepney.info/ (if anybody hasn't yet seen it)

I have the greatest respect to all those who freely give of their experience/knowledge and maintain sites to help further "the cause" - especially for newbies.
I came into contact with him when I was just staring out - I was trying to figure out how to grind the tip of a simple lathe tool and could not get the shape right - getting angry and confused,  - taking pity on me and my efforts, he took the trouble to come and see me at my home and bought with him a load of "spare" back issues of ME magazine - "bed time reading to learn from".

Anyway, whilst we were talking over coffee/Jaffa cakes, he voiced the opinion that there were many many modellers who were also licensed radio operatives - he is a G4*** operator.

Glen - showing my ignorance - apologies - what does the CSE license mean over your way? Is it something you have to have in order to run a stationary steam engine on steam?
I can appreciate the fact that its a means of the "State" milking you for readies.

Just for interest :- Alan Stepney passed on a tip which HE learned over 50 years ago from an other "old timer" - when cutting a gauge glass (glass tube) to length for a boiler - nick the glass where you want to break it, then SPIT on that mark. Break the tube in your fingers. The spit always makes the break clean around the tube's circumference!!

[PTsideshow]

Glen - showing my ignorance - apologies -what does the CSE license mean over your way? Is it something you have to have in order to run a stationary steam engine on steam?
I can appreciate the fact that its a means of the "State" milking you for readies.

It really means that sometime in the future,the state will have a licensing test for boiler operators. High and low, 3rd,2nd,and 1st class stationary engineers. Up until now the cities Detroit and Dearborn had licensing departments. You need a license form them to operate steam equipment in the confines of each city. They don't have any reciprocal licensing agreements as other places do.

So you would have to have two licenses if you worked in both places. Other states use a national boiler board license. Some use insurance company licenses and testing. Most places you can't cross the state line and have your License be valid. It can get to be a real pain.
In some states they have a state license that can be used any where and then local licenses.

They just changed the law in Michigan adding the state registration of your current License. As the state has nothing in place for testing, let alone a paper copy of the license/registration papers. As they ran out of the limited supply, they didn't think they would get the number of people applying to be grandfathered in. (know body wants to retake the testing for the top license.)

This is the current boiler act in Michigan
 http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(bf1ngu554xztrn45tjznl2ao))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-act-290-of-1965&queryid=39491&highlight=

This is the states breakdown:
Boiler operator and stationary engineer registrations are classified as follows:

(a) Low pressure boiler operator, who operates low pressure boiler plants having an aggregate of not more than 4,000 square feet of boiler heating surface.

(b) High pressure boiler operator, who operates boiler plants having an aggregate of not more than 4,000 square feet of boiler heating surface or not more than 10 steam engine-turbine horsepower.

(c) Third-class stationary engineer, who operates boiler plants having an aggregate of not more than 7,500 square feet of boiler heating surface or not more than 100 steam engine-turbine horsepower.

(d) Second-class stationary engineer, who operates boiler plants having an aggregate of not more than 20,000 square feet of boiler heating surface or not more than 200 steam engine-turbine horsepower.

(e) First-class stationary engineer, who operates boiler plants having an aggregate of 20,000 square feet or more of boiler heating surface or 200 steam engine-turbine horsepower or more.

 
This is the section that somebody that is not registered with the state can't use the follow to describe them selves.:
(2) An individual or business entity shall not use the terms "registered boiler operator", "certified boiler operator", "registered stationary engineer", "certified stationary engineer", "low pressure registered boiler operator", "low pressure certified boiler operator", "high pressure registered boiler operator", "high pressure certified boiler operator", "third-class registered stationary engineer", "third-class certified stationary engineer", "second-class registered stationary engineer", "second-class certified stationary engineer", "first-class registered stationary engineer", "first-class certified stationary engineer", or any other name, style, or description that indicates that the individual or an individual employed by the business entity is registered under this act unless the individual has been issued a registration under this act.

An individual registered under this act shall only use 1 of the titles described in subsection (2) or the abbreviation "R.B.O.", "C.B.O.", "R.S.E.", or "C.S.E.".

Now the real funny part is the 1st subsection.:An individual may operate a boiler and associated auxiliaries without obtaining a registration under this act.

Now most locations in the state, depending on the size of the equipment. Will require a Detroit or Dearborn License. Or some other recognized license.

Now if that isn't enough BS to sort through here is the section that explains the meaning of the words used in the boiler law: http://www.state.mi.us/orr/emi/admincode.asp?AdminCode=Single&Admin_Num=40804001&Dpt=CI&RngHigh=

As the boiler law is not to clear on hobby small scale boilers and equipment of the stationary kind. You need to sort thru the AdminCode. But as the deputy Boiler inspector for the state told me it is so loosely write that it is pretty much up to the inspector on the site at the time. As far as what is what, and whether it is safe. That is pretty much way most of the hobby steam shows run everything on air. The traction and larger tractors are under a different set of rules when there is an admission charged.  Not too mention marine applications that carry passengers or cargo, Steam yacht or small steam boats that falls under the Coast Guard, Again depending on size of the waterways, pond, lake etc that is being operated on.

Oh and as a side note the marine steam licenses do not qualify one for stationary license or vise a versa.

Now that your head is probably spinning! 
The short answer to your question

what does the CSE license mean over your way? Is it something you have to have in order to run a stationary steam engine on steam?

NOT A F--ing thing! Other than I figured I paid $80.00 bucks a year for it I should get some use out of it!

No need of apologies, as I would be just as confused with your regulations and laws.

By the way Alan is on a steam railroad forum here on this side of the pond a lot.
http://bbs.livesteam.net/
glen

[klank]

Wow, thanks Glen - what a nightmare to wade through.

Does that mean that if you want to build a small boiler - say 50 p.s.i. - to run an engine you have made - in private, for your own pleasure, with no "public" involved, you have to go through all of that paper trail?

At least over here things are a lot easier - shhh - don't spoil it.
Better not tell this government - they'll bring in similar licensing legislation, or an EEC (European) "Directive" quicker than a rat up a drainpipe - all in the guise of "health and safety" but really to get some more readies.

[PTsideshow]

Wow, thanks Glen - what a nightmare to wade through.

Does that mean that if you want to build a small boiler - say 50 p.s.i. - to run an engine you have made - in private, for your own pleasure, with no "public" involved, you have to go through all of that paper trail?

At least over here things are a lot easier - shhh - don't spoil it.
Better not tell this government - they'll bring in similar licensing legislation, or an EEC (European) "Directive" quicker than a rat up a drainpipe - all in the guise of "health and safety" but really to get some more readies.

Short answer NO !

Here is the questions that have to be answered:
 (31)  "Miniature boiler" means a power boiler that does not have  any    of
the following:
  (a)  An inside diameter of the shell of more than 16 inches.
  (b)  A working pressure of more than 100 psig.
  (c)  A gross volume of more than 5 cubic feet.
  (d)  More than 20 square feet of heating surface.

The above doesn't apply to locomotives

It still is less headaches to operate on air only at our shows. with the insurance, Fire codes etc.
glen

[bogstandard]

In the UK, it has recently been ratified by governing bodies and insurance companies about what is called the 3 bar/litre ruling.

If the boiler has say 1 litre (just under 2 pints) water capacity, then it's max operating pressure should be 3 bar (approx 44 pounds). So if the boiler has a capacity of 1/2 litre (1 pint), then it's max operating pressure could be 6 bar (88 pounds). I have always found that 30 to 40 PSI is more than ample for a well made boiler and engine, in fact for small engines, they run much more efficiently with lower steam pressures if set up correctly.

If this ruling is adhered to, then no pressure testing or inspection of the boiler is required, and you will be covered by your steam engine insurance policy (minimum 2 million squids worth, recommended 5 million squid) for operating in a public place. A public place is any area where others, other than yourself, can be found (including your own home and family members).

It is still recommended that you have your boiler and fittings checked out by a 'competant' person, but it is not a legal requirement.

Above that 3 bar ruling, then things start to get complicated, where there is a fine line between 'competant' person and a certified boiler inspector being required. Stewart should know a bit more about that as he is delving into the realms of larger boilers with his Loco build.

Bogs

[Darren]

In the UK, .......A public place is any area where others, other than yourself, can be found (including your own home and family members).


Bogs

I know you are correct on this John, but just think about when the smoker bashers realise that your home (if more than you live in it) is also deemed a public place....

[sbwhart]

Above that 3 bar ruling, then things start to get complicated, where there is a fine line between 'competant' person and a certified boiler inspector being required. Stewart should know a bit more about that as he is delving into the realms of larger boilers with his Loco build.

Bogs

It seems in the UK that model clubs have a boiler inspector attached to them via their insurance company, the inspector being deemed competant via insurer, I know for bigger commercial boilers the inspectors are certified by Loyds, for my club the insurer is Sun Aliance. But I will stand to be corrected on this.

For my boiler build I've ask the club inspector about building the boiler, the advice he gave me was to follow a recognised design, which I am, get material from a reputable suplier, which I have, and when I start to build the boiler speak to him and he'll guide me through the process, which I will.

But Its the one bit of the loco build that realy wories me.

Stew

[bogstandard]

I know exactly what you are on about Darren, I was just repeating what the regulations say.

Pretty soon you won't be able to fart in public without getting a summons.

All these do gooders need to look at the real world without forcing their issues onto the general public. Talk about a nanny state.

BTW, did you know that smoking is now banned in all public buildings, except for certain areas inside the House of Commons. I think one area is the bar. One set of rules for one .........

Stew,

Don't worry about it, as and when, I can give you some assistance if you require it. I made model boat boilers for many years, yours will only be slightly larger than some I used to make. So I don't see much difference in the techiques needed, just the order of assembly.

Don't forget to keep receipts for everything to do with your boiler, just in case.



John

[PTsideshow]

The locomotive boilers are covered by this section and sub parts including the "club" inspectors. What is unsaid again is that if somebody calls as John said and raises a complaint or question then the inspector(state) can shut it down if he sees fit.

The scariest words one can hear at any time. "Hi I'm from the government, I'm here to help and protect you!"     

408.757c Miniature hobby locomotive; annual inspection; report; fee; rules; application and inspection by club; “public display or use” defined.

Sec. 7c.

(1) Subject to subsections (2), (3), (4), and (5), this act does not apply to a miniature hobby locomotive operating on narrow gauge tracks less than 24 inches in width.

(2) The department of consumer and industry services shall inspect annually a miniature hobby locomotive operating in a public display or use. The inspection shall be conducted by a deputy inspector or special inspector or by a miniature hobby locomotive club in the manner provided for in subsections (4) and (5). The inspector shall file a copy of the inspection report with the chief inspector and provide a copy of the inspection report to the owner of the miniature hobby locomotive.

(3) The fee for an inspection conducted by a deputy or special inspector is $15.00. The department of consumer and industry services, upon demonstration that the miniature hobby locomotive boiler complies with the applicable rules governing miniature hobby locomotives, shall issue a certificate of inspection to the owner of that locomotive.

(4) The director shall promulgate rules under the administrative procedures act of 1969, 1969 PA 306, MCL 24.201 to 24.328, regarding the inspection, certification, and adoption by reference or establishment of inspection and certification standards for boilers used on miniature hobby locomotives subject to this section. The rules shall include a procedure for approval and authorization of miniature hobby locomotive clubs to perform inspections and certify boilers used in miniature hobby locomotives.

(5) The board shall approve a miniature hobby locomotive club applying to the board for approval to inspect and certify boilers used in miniature hobby locomotives upon the board's determination that the club complies with and applies the inspection and certification standards established in the rules. After approval and authorization by the board, the miniature hobby locomotive club may inspect boilers and certify to the board that a miniature hobby locomotive complies with the standards contained in the rules.

(6) As used in this section, “public display or use” means display to or use by the general public but not the owner or the owner's family.


History: Add. 1998, Act 503, Imd. Eff. Jan. 5, 1999

glen 

[sbwhart]

I know exactly what you are on about Darren, I was just repeating what the regulations say.


BTW, did you know that smoking is now banned in all public buildings, except for certain areas inside the House of Commons. I think one area is the bar. One set of rules for one .........


John

It goes even further than that they don't pay tax on the bear, they pay about 50p a pint, and all the food in the house is subsidised by the tax payer.

stew

[Bernd]

It goes even further than that they don't pay tax on the bear, they pay about 50p a pint, and all the food in the house is subsidised by the tax payer.

stew

You guys don't pay taxes on "bears".          

Sorry Stew I just couldn't resist that one. I know you'll get even down the line somewere. 

Bernd

[rleete]

You guys don't pay taxes on "bears".   

We do.  Did ya hear about the bear in the tree in the city last week?

How much did all those DEC guys cost us for one dead bear?

[sbwhart]

It goes even further than that they don't pay tax on the bear, they pay about 50p a pint, and all the food in the house is subsidised by the tax payer.

stew

You guys don't pay taxes on "bears".          

Sorry Stew I just couldn't resist that one. I know you'll get even down the line somewere. 

Bernd

 

[Bernd]

You guys don't pay taxes on "bears".   

We do.  Did ya hear about the bear in the tree in the city last week?

How much did all those DEC guys cost us for one dead bear?

Ya, probably more than I wanna' know.