Author Topic: Project Halo  (Read 29601 times)

bogstandard

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Project Halo
« on: August 01, 2009, 05:10:05 PM »
I was due to start this project last year, but a combination of ill health and a complete workshop rebuild meant that it has been delayed until now.

Because this will be a talk thru, and because I am not making just one engine, I will in fact be treating if it was a production job. So I will be doing a few things different to normal, just to allow me to make a lot of items in the shortest possible time, but you should still be able to do it as I do, as some of the parts you will require five off of each one, whereas I will be making over twenty, so I will be making some easy jigs to help.

As far as I am concerned, this engine requires that you have a lathe, mill and an RT. I just cannot go into any depth about using other methods, which I am sure you can find workarounds for, because of the limited time I have to get the job done.

I know that the plans are perfect, as I know two people who have built straight from plans, and everything fitted together with no problems. I will be making the parts to the drawings (bling allowing), and will be concentrating on one part at a time, before continuing to the next. With a tiny bit of checking throughout the machining, a few fitting checks will be made. By doing this, I should be able to make all the parts, then it is just an assembly job at the end.
You should all know by now what engine I am on about, but if you don't, here is a nice link for you took have a look thru.

http://lineymachine.googlepages.com/l5

So without boring you to death any more, lets get on with it.

I am actually going to be building six engines. The first will be a set of 5. This engine can be made with 1 up to 5 cylinders, I will be making the whole set for a display. Then because I found I had spare components for assembly, I will be making a 5 cylinder for my collection, so in fact, I will be making 20 cylinders, but only showing on here the basic 5 cylinder engine. It would just take too long for me to show all the working out and machining for the others, as each engine has different angles and components to be worked out.
 
I contacted Lance at Liney Machine, and asked him just to send me the assembly pack and plans, as I had all my own raw materials. I went that way because I didn't want to start changing over from the US unified system to either BA or Metric. But John S has built a 3 cylinder version using 2mm fasteners.

Once I received the plans, and saw how good they were, and how the engine could be built with any number of cylinders, I contacted Lance again, and asked him to send me another few assembly packs of just the bearings, bolts, springs etc. Basically, anything that I would have a little bit of difficulty obtaining in the UK, because they were just as cheap for me to import them as buy from here. I even had him send me a few very good quality 2-56 taps. Just a little note here, every thread on the engine is 2-56, and only taps are required, standard fasteners take care of all external threads.

I will also add now that this engine was designed to be made by CNC, but having gone thru the whole list of components, there is nothing that cannot be fairly easily done by manual machining, and good tolerance control.

The pic below shows all the items I was sent. The ring bound plans are great and well detailed, there is even a set of acetate overlays that shows how each part builds up into the finished engine. IMHO, if all plans were like this, making engines would be a whole lot easier.




So now to get down to making the thing. I am starting by making the cylinders. The plans call for 3/4" square brass bar, but because I am making mine out of bar ends, I want to work with round bar, and I will machine the square bit on later.
So out with the desktop engineering calculator, and I soon had the diameter I required. Near as damn it 1 1/16".




I have loads of hex bar ends, and a quick measurement showed they would turn down easily to the size I required. So I measured the length of a few, and got enough together to get the job done with very little wastage.




When I start a project, I get together a few boxes at the back of my assembly bench. In these I store everything parts wise that I already have and things that are to be made. There is nothing worse than searching around for bits you have already done but can't find.




The job now starts in earnest.
I turned the hex bars down to size in one hit, flip it around in the chuck and turn the other end down. I didn't go down to finished size just yet, that will come later. These were about 0.020" over size.





Ten minutes later, I had enough round bar to do the job.




I tried parting them all off to length under power, but it was just too slow. So I went in by hand as fast as I could, and they were all soon to rough length.




Millions upon millions of tiny hypodermic needles. Get one of these in your skin and you will soon know about it. They start to corrode and fester in less than a day.
Time for a very good clean up.




Enough to do the job, and a few spares, just in case.




The next job will be to get accurate holes thru all these, then the work to get them to shape can start.


Bogs

Offline shred

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2009, 09:33:21 PM »
wow.. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this build.

Offline NorthOf40

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2009, 09:37:12 PM »
Thank you, Bogs.

I always learn quite a lot from your write-ups. :thumbup:
Jim
Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. – Mark Twain

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2009, 12:35:57 AM »
One of my planned builds... I will be watching this one with anticipation!


Eric
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We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.

Offline kvom

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2009, 08:42:15 AM »
This is my planned winter project.   I have to obtain a rotary table first.  It will be nice having this thread as a reference.

The 2-56 fasteners are a bit daunting, but I guess I need to bite the bullet and learn to work smaller.

bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2009, 12:51:04 PM »
Kirk,

When working with these small sizes, it is well worth building youself a tapping stand, as a few of the lads have done.
It does honestly cut down the breakage problems because you feel with your fingertips rather than your whole hand.

I bought 4 taps for making six engines, but that is looking on the very pessimistic side. If all goes to plan, I should end up with 4 unbroken ones left. The only reason I bought that many was in case I felt one going dull, then it would be thrown away. On the first squeak, it is out of there.


Bogs

Offline zeusrekning

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2009, 04:58:03 PM »
Looking forward to following this build closely John. The tray for keeping up with all ready made parts is a must for sure. I seem to spend more time hunting than making when it comes to small parts. Good luck with the build man.
Zeusrekning

bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2009, 07:04:55 PM »
This is going to be about one of the most boring posts you have ever seen, all because it is just shots of metal being either hacked down to size, or having a hole stuck in it.
But I suppose it needs to be shown because it is all part of the build.

Whenever I come to machine a fairly complicated piece, I study the drawing and work out a machining procedure.
This needs to be done, because you can easily get yourself into a position where you can't hold a part to finish it off.
This isn't written in stone, as I fairly regularly make a machining procedure, then when I get half way thru, I find I can change it to maybe cut out a couple of the steps by doing something slightly different.
If you can get into the habit of making notes and procedures like this, you will find that things go a lot smoother and less mistakes are made.




The part was mounted into the 3 jaw and about 1/2" was turned down to finished size for making the square flange. It just so happened that this was the largest size that I could hold in the 5C collet chuck, and as I have said, because I am treating it as a production run, I will use whatever I have to get the job done. So if you do it, you will most probably carry on using your normal chuck.




So now the finished size end could be held in a collet.
The first job was to face the end, this will be the datum end that all other measurements go from.




The next op was to centre drill to get ready for putting the bore in.
Because I am using a collet chuck, I can remove the part between operations, but if using a normal chuck, you would leave it in there and finish the whole operation until the bore was complete.




My next step was to drill 1/64" undersize of the finished size required.




A 3/8" parallel machine reamer was then used to finish off the bore. I find that a reamer is perfectly satisfactory for a job like this, but for other types of engines, I would bore the hole.
If you don't have a reamer you have two choices. The first is to carefully drill with the correct sized drill, and hope the bore cleans up nicely enough. Nine times out of ten, it will do. If it didn't, then a little lapping should sort it. The second option would be to bore the hole, a much longer process and your bore should finish up with a perfect finish.




It was at this point I decided to deviate from my proposed schedule. Instead of turning to an oversize, I decided to turn down to finished size, purely because this is where the finning on the cylinder is, and so I decided that it didn't need to be perfectly sized, so I turned down as long an area as I could in one hit down to the nominal size of 3/4". As it turned out, once I had set and locked the cross slide, they all turned to exactly the right size.




These are all the bits with the finning area to size. The top face, as I said before, is the datum face for the overall length.




The 3/4" collet was fitted with an internal backstop. The datum end was put against the backstop, and the machine set up so that after facing across, the cylinder would end up at the required length. Each cylinder in turn was faced off at the same setting.
Unfortunatley, the 5C backstop system is not as accurate as everyone thinks. Because it is mounted into the back of the collet and not into the lathe spindle, just by over or under tightening the collet can make the part slightly longer or shorter. Mine all came out within 0.002" of optimum length, so as far as I am concerned, they are within acceptable tolerances.
If you are using a normal chuck without a spindle backstop, then you will have to do it the hard way, measure, remove a bit, measure and so on until you reach the correct length.




I then decided just to rough size the flange area, rather than finishing it to correct dimensions.
I have got a design in my head for an all in one drilling and flange machining jig that will save me hours of RT work. By leaving the flange until later, the extra thickness will allow more accurate use of the jig.




The bits are now ready for drill and mill work, and me getting the jigs made.



If I get chance tomorrow, I will try to put my idea into metal, to see if this project can be taken a stage further.

Bogs
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 07:10:47 PM by bogstandard »

Offline Darren

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2009, 07:25:31 PM »
I could see my turret lathe coming into it's own here..... :ddb:


Looking nice John, watching closely as always. A bit more under me belt and maybe, just maybe........ :nrocks:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2009, 11:53:51 PM »
That is very true Darren, a turret would have speeded things up no end.

I do in fact have one of those tailstock turrets, a good idea purchase at the time. But for me to set it up to do everything I would want of it, even for this little job would have cost me rather a few quid for good quality chucks. I suppose one day I will get it set up for how I would need to use it.

Mind you, twenty odd bits all the same cause me personally no problems. Once you get into a routine of swapping bits while the machine runs up and down, I suppose it could be nearly as fast as using the tailstock turret because you are having to move the tailstock anyway because of tooling lengths. It is totally different when you have a capstan saddle, you can get in and out much faster.

John

NB.
I have just read my last post, and it is lucky I didn't complete the maching routine that I had written down. Towards the end, it said 'form a 0.110" collar', it should in fact have read 'form a 0.100" collar".
So this is a massive reminder, not only check the drawings, double check your routines as well, to make sure they conform to the drawings.

I don't think it would have caused major problems, but a problem none the less.

A VERY lucky escape, and was caused by rushing things.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 04:56:54 AM by bogstandard »

Offline kvom

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2009, 10:06:46 AM »
Question:

Do you see any issues in making the cylinders in Al and the crankcase in brass?

bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2009, 10:35:58 AM »
Kirk,

Just having a lookthrough, I would say it would be OK, as long as you kept brass pistons to prevent galling.


But of course, that would be only if it was run on air, I would have grave doubts it would run on steam.


Bogs

bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2009, 06:54:45 PM »
I managed very little yesterday, not enough to post, and so finished it off today.

So here is my solution to the drilling problem I had. Notice the word HAD, you will see later. You should see it develope as I go along.

First off, I needed a bit of tough material, because I only have 180+ holes to drill, it isn't worth hardening anything for such a small quantity. I found a lump of stainless off some sort of machinery I must have stripped down at some time. A spigot to fit into the bore was turned on it, and polished so that the bore wouldn't be damaged.




A very nice sliding fit, but not loose.




This is a pic of the drawing showing how the holes have to be, but because I am working with round bar and not square, I couldn't use the marked positions for the holes. Instead, I worked out the PCD of the two sets of holes. These dimensions will be of help to you if you use round bar.

The cover up of the drawing is because when I talked with Lance about doing this post, I promised him that I would not show enough of the drawing to allow the engine to be made. The plans and fixings are very reasonable, and it would be expected you purchase them if you wanted to make one.




I needed two plates making, one for either end of the cylinder. One end was drilled 5mm, the other drilled and tapped 5mm. Sorry about the metric, this post was supposed to be all imperial, but at times it will need to be. Most of my workshop fastener stock is metric. The discs need to be larger than 1 3/8", and mine are about 1/4" thick. There is a reason for these dimensions, but they are not overly critical.




This is what they look like with the cylinder loaded.




So now I had to get things onto the RT, to get the holes drilled in the right places.
First thing is to centralise the RT to the quill and get everything zeroed up.




I fitted the disc that goes onto the head end of the cylinder first. This uses the smaller of the above PCD's. So the Y axis was offset by half the PCD figure, and the standard 0,90,180,270 degree RT settings were used for the four hole locations.
These positions were then centred with a #1 imperial centre drill (1/8" diameter, this is a diameter that is used later). As this is a bit of tough material, I used tapping oil as the lubricant.




The centre holes were then followed down with a good quality 1/8" drill. We need good sized holes here. Make sure you stand the piece off the chuck jaws slightly, otherwise you will drill the jaws as you break thru.
It was at this point, I stopped yesterday. Unfortunately, I forgot to take shots of the next two procedures, but the picture below shows what I did.
I locked up the RT really tight,  and traversed some more in the Y axis, then machined a flat on the back of the disc, just like below. Coming in by 1/8" should give you a fairly wide flat. Make a note of the amount you come in, to the nearest thou.
I did the second disc the same as the first, except it was at the larger PCD. But before cutting the flat, the disc was rotated by 45 degrees.




This is what the second disc looks like with the holes rotated by 45 degrees to the flat. The flat was machined to the same setting as the first. I actually went to great lengths with my offset for the flat, because my jig is going to be used for a critical second operation. More of that in the next post.
Both discs had the outside ends of the holes countersunk slightly with a #2 imperial centre drill. These should be a 60 degree countersink, the same as on a #1 centre drill.




This is now the drilling jig itself completed.




And this is how you set it up.
Make sure you have the correct end in the jig for the pcd on the discs. Assemble it lightly, gently tighten up the vice, and the two flats should automatically be lined up perfectly, tweak up the screw, and you have the assembly ready for drilling




Or as I do, push the two flats down onto a perfectly flat plate, and tighten up.




Now set up a #1 centre drill (1/8" diameter) so that only the tip drills into the part, it should stop just before the countersink starts to cut. Then set the width of the vice jaws just a little wider than the washer under the assembly bolt head.
It is then a matter of just placing each hole under the drill and bring it down. The 60 deg countersink will guide the finger held jig and the centre drill into perfect position. Just carry on and drill the hole. Once you have done one end, flip over and do the same on the other end.




Eight perfectly placed pilot holes, exactly 45 degrees rotation between the two sets. It took less than half an hour to pilot drill 23 cylinders, over 180 holes. To do the same thing on an RT would have taken hours, mainly because of setting up for the 45 deg offset. Even if you used the square bar and tried to do it in the vice using a backstop, it would still have taken a lot longer. BTW, you cannot drill both sets of holes from the same end, the area for the cylinder fins get in the way of a centre drill for drilling the larger PCD flange holes. I suppose you could make up a special very thin pilot drill, but then you would have the trouble of drill tip wander.
I could have used the PCD function on my DRO, but you would have learned absolutely nothing.




Now comes the dead easy bit. Make up a close fitting stub mandrel that just clamps into the vice, you get it perfectly upright by putting one of the cylinders over it and making sure the cylinder end is resting flat on the vice jaws, then tighten up on the vice.




Put the small #1 centre drill in the chuck, and move the table until the drill tip goes nicely into the pilot hole. I would suggest the flange end first, as that is a straight thru hole. You can position the drill in any position you like, as long as the tip enters the hole precisely. This allows you to put it were you can see it the best.




Swap out for the correct sized drill, turn the cylinder until the pilot hole is under the drill and just go for it. Basically everything lines up perfectly and you can actually take your steadying hand away, only needing to steady the part when the drill breaks thru.

You do the head end the same way, but you also have to put in the smaller drill size and set your depth stop for the drill.




Again, about half an hour for all these holes. They almost drill themselves.




This is a close up shot showing the top and bottom offset holes. The smaller ones will go onto the tapping stand to have the threading done, and the flange end will use the drilling jig to set it up for squaring off.



Nearly at the end of making the cylinders, just square off the end and then onto the lathe for finning and trimming to size.


Bogs
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 01:08:30 AM by bogstandard »

Offline zeusrekning

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2009, 09:16:29 PM »
Its really nice to see the fixturing done for small production runs. Its not to commonly done in the home shop but your set up is more similar to what i am used to doing at work.
Keep up the good work.
zeus

bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2009, 12:33:10 AM »
Zeus,

This is the sort of thing that you don't see me doing, but it is a fairly normal occurance when small production jobs come in. A little jig or fixture can save tremendous amounts of time.
By making this drilling jig, even on such a short run, has saved me many hours of work setting up the RT. Plus it has the added advantage, if I want to make any more of these engines, the fixture will be ready and waiting. Or if anyone wants to go the round bar route, a bit of postage, and it can be sent out to help, to save them having to make a jig.

If using the square bar as recommended on the plans, then it might be a worthwhile thing to carry out the drilling on just the mill using a backstop and an edge finder, just using the square bar faced to length before any turning has been done on it.
Every method has it's own problems and solutions. If anyone needs help with setup procedures for their particular type of build, then they only have to ask, and I will help if at all possible.

I don't know if it is really a viable proposition if your are only making five cylinders. But a quickie throw away one out of say ali might be.

John

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2009, 02:20:14 AM »
John,
That was so very well done, and very well shown.....  :clap:

The sort of thing many thousands of skilled machinists have done many times, over very many years.

But, very difficult to explain to others.......  ::)

You have the knack.  :headbang:

David D

David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline spuddevans

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2009, 03:01:33 AM »
John,
That was so very well done, and very well shown.....  :clap:

The sort of thing many thousands of skilled machinists have done many times, over very many years.

But, very difficult to explain to others.......  ::)

You have the knack.  :headbang:

David D



I agree totally with David D. Thanks for taking the time to show those of us who are not trained machinests just how to save a lot of time and effort to achieve a consistent result using a jig.  :thumbup: :thumbup:


Tim
Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe  -  MI0TME

Offline kvom

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2009, 08:05:19 AM »
I am very impressed with the jig, esp. with the thinking that went into it.  Seems simple once you understand it, but I would not have come up with anything close. Using the oriented flats to ensure the 45 degree angle between top and bottom was the part I found ingenious.

I would be using round bar, but would have milled the flange square first, thus reducing the fabrication to the square bar case.

bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2009, 01:13:14 PM »
Many thanks for the comments.

Unfortunately, having thought about it, I was a little selfish just showing how I had done it, and ignoring how most other people would do it with the square bar.
So I hope this post will correct that.

What I did this morning, was to do a setup as if I was doing it by the square bar method, but not actually drilling any holes. So you will have to use your imagination a little.

Just imagine this isn't another drilling jig, but the square bar with the bore thru it.




This is what I would do.
Put the backstop in position, with a pair of parallels in the vice. The low tension spring is to keep the paras in position as you are opening and closing the vice jaws all the time, and it is a PITA if you have to keep resetting them. Then I put my favourite edge finder in the chuck. You will have to allow for slightly different operations if you use another type.




You should, if possible when doing drilling like this, always work from known fixed points. The two fixed points here are the vice fixed jaw and the back stop.
So the part is dropped onto the paras and pushed against the stop and jaw with a downwards pressure as well, then the vice is tightened up.
I shouldn't need to remind you that the ends that go down onto the paras should be faced off and square to the sides.

This is a part I must explain to you. If you have machined the square bar yourself, it should be to size. If it came as a purchased length, sometimes the size can be up to about 0.005" smaller. This must be taken into account if you want good accuracy, and as such, you should measure the bar both ways, and make allowances.
We will take an example of the bar being 0.004" smaller. Halve the deficit, 0.002", and subtract that from the amount you have to move inwards from the edge. The further from the fixed faces the measurement is, the more critical you remove the error.
If you are working from the centre of the part to a PCD measurement, the centre of the bar must be found by subtracting the errors first.
I have done a rough sketch at the end to show what can happen if you don't do it.
A lot of times it doesn't make a difference, but if you are working to tight tolerances, it does.

So you find the edge, and move over the correct amount.




Then do the same thing on the backstop side.




So you now lock up X and Y axis, then using a centre drill, put in your pilot hole.




Move the part around to the next side and drill in again. The green spot represents where the first drilling was done, I told you it was imagination time.




So once all four holes have been pilot drilled, put your twist drill in the chuck, set up for correct depth, and drill away. You repeat for all four corners.




During the turning process, you have to make sure that all the areas are kept clean, because a bit of swarf can easily knock things out of line.
So for the other end, you repeat the first setup but using a different sized drill and locations.




As above.




As above, but if the size difference isn't allowed for, these holes, being out of line, will have more impact on the job.




This is a very rough sketch of what will happen to the holes if you don't compensate for the difference in size.
This pic is in fact wrong, I have shown the bar offset centre position in the wrong place.

Just use your imagination again, and think of it as being right.




I hope you had enough imagination to pick the technique up.

Bogs

Offline CrewCab

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2009, 01:43:25 PM »
Good tips John, many thanks  :beer:

CC

Offline cedge

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2009, 02:44:39 PM »
John...
Are you building these to be steam capable or will they be basically air powered engines?  I've wondered more than once why Liney added cooling fins to what should be basically considered a steam engine.

Steve

bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2009, 02:59:57 PM »
Steve,

I am building with what the plans says should be used.

It seems that everything Liney market are in fact steam capable, but unlike all their other ones, I have only seen this one on air.

Having looked at all the drawings, clearances and materials, I have no doubt it would steam.

If I can get these finished, I will be able to answer your question for definite.

I think the fins are purely for cosmetic effect on the engine. It would look rather bland without them, but as you suspect, it wouldn't help their steaming capability.

John

Offline kvom

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2009, 08:20:01 PM »
John,

Your process for the square flange matches my thinking.  Having a DRO, I can find the center via the edge finder on either side and using the 1/2 key to split the difference.  So a bit faster than measuring and scrolling over from the edges.  I just bought a keyless chuck for the mill that will clamp my 1/2" edge finder, so now I won't have to use the same 1/2" collet for the edge finder and drills.  That should speed up my work quite a bit.

For the machining from round stock, I am thinking of the following process.  Critique is welcome:

1) Using the 6-jaw in the lathe drill and ream the center bore, and then face and turn the spigot to finish diameter.  I would need to make the spigot overlong as it will be held in my Jacobsen collet, which is inset from the collet chuck.  Part off.

2) Clamp in the Jacobsen collet chuck via the spigot.  Turn to 3/4" finish diameter leaving the flange material (no need to turn down the flange portion).  Face to finish length.

3) Remove the piece from the lathe, and clamp the head end in a 3/4" 5C collet in a square collet block.  Clamp the block in the mill vise and successively mill the flange square by rotating the block in the vise.

4) With the piece still in the block, clamp the block vertically in the vise using the vise stop.  Measure center and locate one corner.  Center drill, then rotate the collet block in the vise for the other holes.  Then repeat using the clearance drill.

5) Reverse the piece to hold the spigot in the square collet block.  Using the surface plate and height gauge, square the flange to the collet block.  Then use the same procedure to drill the holes for the head.

I would retain the overlength spigot for remounting in the the lathe for cutting fins/tapers, etc.  Eventually the flanges could be use to clamp in the mill vise to mill the spigot to length.

bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2009, 02:42:56 AM »
Kirk,

It is good to see you are starting to do a lot of forwards planning. That is the secret to making complicated parts.

These cylinders are not complicated at all, but the reason I am being so long winded about it, there are a few traps that the unsuspecting could easily fall into. That is why I am trying to explain the reasons for me doing it the way I have.

If you remember, these plans are to make an engine using CNC. Which means, that once set up, will bang out perfectly spaced holes with great accuracy time after time. I am trying to show how to replicate that accuracy by doing it manually.

The engine would most probably go together and run by not being too accurate with the measurements, but making it exactly to plans for the critical bits will guarantee it will work.

Looking at it, your system might have a fault or two.

Your mounting of the collet block vertically is the major issue as far as I would be concerned. Bits sticking up that far from the vice jaws have a tendency to be rather unstable, and if only a second of a degree out, will start to move away from being square.

I have some more work to do on these cylinders, and I would suggest you see what sort of things I get up to first, then look at maybe modifying what I do before making your final machining procedure.

John

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2009, 04:49:49 AM »
Hi John

Great thread great post:- coming along great, I like your tip of using the spring to keep parallels in place that ones files away.

Have fun

Stew
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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2009, 04:55:26 AM »
The spring is not my idea Stew, just something I picked up along my journey.

If you want any springs like that, I am sure we can find one or two.

John

Offline Darren

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2009, 04:57:46 AM »
Hi John,

I'm not sure if I missed it in your posts but on the round parts you drilled at 45 and the square in line?

I take that it's not critical then..... :scratch:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline kvom

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2009, 08:39:51 AM »
My reading of the plans is that the orientation of the holes IS critical.  The holes in the flange are for mounting on the crankcase once the flange is squared.  The holes on the cylinder orient the cylinder head.

Offline Darren

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2009, 08:47:49 AM »
Thanks Kirk,

Just me no reading properly then, 45 to each end it is then.... :thumbup:
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Offline NickG

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2009, 11:31:26 AM »
Bogs,

Great to see you churning this superb work out. I think we all learn from your posts. Can't wait to see this thing start to take shape, it's a beast!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline kvom

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2009, 06:21:28 PM »
Based on this and other threads, I have put aside some other projects to work on making a tapping station.

Offline Darren

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2009, 06:42:05 PM »
You won't reget it, I was forever snapping small taps until I made/adapted a small drilling machine.

The difference is unreal and no more broken taps....It's very hard to explain why it helps, but once you've tried it you'll never want to use a small tap the old way again.... :dremel:
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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2009, 07:20:14 PM »
I had these done a couple of days ago, but it is only now I have felt like spending a bit of time doing a write up.

If you remember a couple of posts back, where I made the drilling jig, but also said a part of it was to be used later, and that I had machined the flats to a critical dimension. Well this is how it works.

I am using the square collet block from a 5c block system to put the square ends on the flange.
First off, I turned up a couple of stepped pins, 1/8" to match the holes thru the jig and the other end turned down to the same size as the holes in the flange.




The cylinder was mounted into the collet but the collet wasn't tightened up, the cylinder was free to rotate. The jig was put into the bore and the pins were located into two diagonal holes thru both the jig and cylinder.




I had previously calculated how far the flat on the jig was from the centre of the collet block, so that it would sit perfectly flat when pushed down onto a 1/4" parallel. So onto the flat surface on the back of the vice, the para in position, the collet block was pushed down until it too sat flat on the flat surface. The jig and cylinder rotated in the collet until the flat on the jig sat perfectly flat on the para. The collet was then tightened up, leaving the cylinder in perfect alignment to have the flats machined on the ends and the holes to be in the correct position.




The collet block was mounted into the vice against the backstop, and the cutter brought down to the correct height. Everything except the Y axis was then locked up solid.




By rotating the block and taking single pass cuts, the flats were machined on the ends of the cylinders. They only took a couple of minutes to do each one, and each square was within 1 thou of nominal size. That'll do for me.
Except, because of my impatience or rushing, I managed to fluff up two of the squares, so I am down to only one spare cylinder. It always makes sense to have a couple of extras in the background. Not to worry, the duff ones can be used for setting up the next machining operation on the lathe. That will save having to use good ones.




This is another method I could have done it without the use of the collet block.

Zero up your RT, including the degree scale. Stick two pins in adjacent holes and push a para or a piece of tool steel against the pins.
Rotate the part in the chuck until you get a zero/zero runout on the DTI when run down the Y axis. Once that is done, get the correct distance for cutting and do your standard 0,90,180,270 cut.




Here is another shot of the setup.




All the bits ready for the last operations on the lathe.



As I have said, this is how I did it. I am sure there are many ways and methods you could use to achieve the same result.

Unfortunately, later this morning, I have a banana lathe to sort out, so it might be a while before I can carry on with this post.


Bogs

Offline Darren

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2009, 07:53:56 PM »
Fancy a game of Skittles anyone.....Johns got the pins, who's got the ball?... :ddb:


Looking good there John......coming along nicely.... :thumbup:
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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2009, 01:33:15 PM »
John,

Without sounding like a kiss ass... It is remarkable to me how quickly and accurately you get this stuff done. I aspire to be half as good my friend.

Eric
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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2009, 01:40:45 PM »
Thanks Eric,

But due to me having some unfortunate bad news, I will not be able to continue with this post for the forseeable future, unless I can steal a little time for myself.

Sorry about that, but family must always come first.

I will still try to help out on the site when I can't sleep, late at night.

So if you see me burning the midnight oil, if you can, give me a Skype call if it shows I am available. I am always up for a bit of gumbeating, day or night.

John

Offline NickG

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2009, 02:18:13 PM »
John,

Sorry to hear you have had bad news, we will miss your project logs whilst you take care of priorities. You shouldn't have apologised, anybody else would have to do the same. Hopefully we can follow your example and create the interest with some posts of our own.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2009, 07:57:24 PM »
Over the last few days, I have been pecking away at the cylinders doing a bit here and there. So this is the stage that they are up to.

I have come to realise that these cylinders are in fact the trickiest bits of the engine to build. The rest of the bits, although fiddly, are really just straight forwards machining exercises. The cylinders on the other hand are all to do with 'feel' to get them right. So hopefully, these bits I am showing here and in the past few posts will get you over the main stumbling blocks.


The first thing to do when using the topslide for the feed and very fine plunge cutting is everything has to be square to each other. If you don't do this, not only will measurements be out, but you will start to break the fine cutting tools.

The first thing I did was to zero up the topslide (compound slide). It was a matter of slackening the hold down bolts slightly, and either by winding on the topslide handle (laborious) or winding the saddle (much better), and gently tapping on the topslide sides,  you get the topslide showing no deflection from straight. Very gently tighten up then recheck.
The area shown to check on isn't perfect, but unless you want to strip down to the dovetails, this will have to do you.




Again, this isn't the perfect method, but it works for me. You would usually set the lathe tool edge square to the rod in the chuck, but because I am using such small tooling, it is easier for me to do it this way.




A piece of rod was mounted into the chuck to make a holding mandrel. Once this is made, it will not be removed from the chuck until every machining operation on the cylinder has been carried out.
This mandrel will be used to hold each part in a perfect position for it to have repeatable machining operations carried out, without having to worry about resetting everything up and rezeroing each time.




A spigot was turned to be a nice sliding fit in the bore, and about 1/16th shorter than the cylinder length.




The end was drilled and tapped to take a short bolt with a washer fitted.




This is how it looks with a part fitted.




I will explain about how I mount the cutters first.
Because I am only using a 3/16" cutter in basically a 5/8" holder, it can be difficult getting the grub screws to grip while as mentioned before, getting the tool square to the chuck centre axis at the same time. This is how I do it, because it makes it easier for me, and the tool should end up to being spot on or very close to square




Now first off, I will explain about the tooling. Because I will be cutting hundreds of fins and slots, I made up three double ended tools. The cutting areas only have front rake. Because I am cutting brass, no top rake is required, and because I will be plunge cutting, hopefully square to the lathe axis, I don't use side rakes either. They were just ground up on my surface grinder, three ends at a time to exactly 0.025" width.
The text comes next. I worked out a machining sequence for cutting all the grooves and fins to exactly what is required on the drawing. If you don't want them to look the same as that, you will have to work out your own.
By having that working procedure, it was very easy to work out dial settings to religiously follow that at the end, I will have what is required.
This is all on the assumption that you have all your bits to the same length (or within a couple of thou), and the tools are set EXACTLY ON CENTRE HEIGHT, NOT NEAR ENOUGH, BUT EXACTLY. If you don't know how to do that, just ask and I will make up a little article on how to do it.




I used the first scrap cylinder to check that the tools I had made would have no problems plunge cutting to the depths required.
Now for the trial cuts. Using the second scrapper, I followed my machining routine to the letter.




This is what it turned out like, spot on.
When you cut the end fins down to size, small rings of brass are produce that sit in the grooves. The hooky tool is to get them out of the grooves.

So now that the finning has been proven, the flange area has to be completed first. So that is what I did, put the finning tooling to one side, and prepare for getting the flanges to the correct thickness and position.




Just a reminder, all tooling has to be sharp enough to shave with, have clearances that will work, and again, be EXACTLY on centre height. These are the very basic rules for lathe work, if you can't get them right, you need to take up knitting instead.

So what I did was stick one of the scrappers onto the spindle, with the correct end to be machined nearest the tool (it sounds obvious, but a few times I have done it the wrong way around, and ruined perfectly good parts before realising what I was doing).

Using the saddle stop, I machined down the flange until the spigot formed was spot on size. The topslide and cross slide dials were both zeroed with the tool in it's final cutting position.




The second scrapper was used to prove the settings. They again were spot on. So now I could work on the real thing.




One of the precious parts was mounted up (I only have one spare left). The tool was moved into the zero/zero position, and taking a cut towards the head at full depth, was cut until the saddle hit the stop, then with hand pressure holding the saddle against the stop, the cross slide was wound outwards to remove metal that was left by the angled front cutting face. This was repeated on all the remaining parts.




21 spigots cut in no time.




Now we come to what I consider the most difficult cut on the whole engine.
Because of where the fins end up near the flange, the widest cutting tool that can safely be used to cut the flange to thickness and depth is 1/16". Plus because it will be plunging to a depth of around 0.280", and an interrupted cut caused by the square flange and the four holes in it, the tool will require side clearances. As you can see, the root of the cutting part is very thin, and because I ground this up by hand, I don't want to have to make another one, so very easy does it.
As can be seen from the schedule, once the depth of cut and position of cut is obtained, everything will be locked up, and the cut will be done by the cross slide only. So cut to depth, retract, change part, cut to depth etc etc.




The tool was set up with the cutting face square to the lathe axis.




Depth of cut was found and the cross slide dial set to zero.
I have to mention that I could not use the scrappers for setting up, the interrupted cuts that they would have made would almost certainly have resulted in a broken tool.




The saddle was locked up and shallow plunge cuts were made on the back face of the flange until it was the correct thickness. Sorry about the quality of the picture.




Now ready for the cut. I had the machine running at 900 RPM, and fed fairly fast until I reached the main meat of the part, then I hand fed at approximately 0.002" per second, using a very smooth continuous two handed swapping action. A continuous steady feed is even more important than the feed in speed. If you are speeding up and slowing down or even worse, stopping, that is when you will get tool breakage.

This shows the finished groove.




I must have done something right, because I got them all cut, and the tool lived to cut another day




So the cylinders are nearly fin-ished, just got about 200 of them to do.


Bogs

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2009, 03:41:13 AM »
John,

Nowt to add.......  :bow: :bow: :bow:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Stefan Pynappels

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2009, 04:04:04 AM »
 :jaw: You Rock John. :jaw:

bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2009, 04:27:09 AM »
Thanks gents, but you must inform me of any areas you don't quite understand.

With this being a warts and all build, if possible, by following it, you should be able to build one of these engines if you have the plans and materials.

By not understanding something I am doing, then you are leaving yourself open to mistakes.

But that is not to say my way is the correct way, you might have a better solution with the equipment you have. In fact, I did consider using a slitting saw and RT to machine all the fins and flanges. But for me, that would have been a long and arduous process for the quantity I have to make, but it might be acceptable to someone who has only a few cylinders to make, and isn't too sure of their tool grinding and plunge cutting abilities.
In my case, it is like parting off 200 items to perfect width. I have no trouble parting off, but others might consider it a thing from hell.

Many thanks again.


John

Offline NickG

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2009, 04:53:43 AM »
Great stuff John, I've never attempted to plunge cut fins that thin, it always scares me but think I could probably tackle some meatier ones with your advice now.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline CrewCab

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2009, 05:20:12 AM »
Great write up John,  :thumbup:

CC

Offline kvom

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2009, 07:48:13 AM »
Nice work John.

Two questions:

1) On the tapered part of the cylinder, do you cut the lands to diameter directly, or did you pre-taper first?

2) The crankcase plan shows .001 difference between the hole and the spigot.  My plan was to use a .500 reamer for the hole and turn the spigot to fit.  I was wondering what your plan is (i.e., what diameter are your spigots?)

Offline ozzie46

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2009, 07:57:58 AM »


 [ and the tools are set EXACTLY ON CENTRE HEIGHT, NOT NEAR ENOUGH, BUT EXACTLY. If you don't know how to do that, just ask and I will make up a little article on how to do it]

    Please do John, I'm very interested in how you do it. I have been setting up by adjusting the tool to the dead center point, but don't know if that is close enough.


   Ron

bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2009, 08:18:20 AM »
Kirk,

Nothing was pre cut for the tapered finning. By using my cutting routine, everything comes out as it should. All the plunge cuts between the fins are done first, then the fins are plunge cut to correct size afterwards.

All the spigots I have made are 0.500" give or take half a thou. Because the crankcase is not pressurised and so doesn't need to have close fitting cylinder parts, I am most probably going to just drill the holes in the crankcase, haven't decided just yet, I might even bore them, that is just as quick as drilling. A couple of thou 'woggle about' clearance isn't going to do any harm to this engine. But I will be making a drilling jig that drops into the 1/2" hole and machined flange recess, to allow me to very quickly hand drill the four flange mounting holes.

You have to remember, you will be using your RT standing on it's side, so throat clearance has to be thought of when coming to fit long bits into holders. I usually wait until it is all mounted up before making a decision. I might find that the only cutting tool I can get in is a 1/2" slot drill, and so will have to use that. Or maybe even use the spindexer, that would give me a lot more throat clearance.

Those are a long time off yet, and anything can happen in the meantime.


Ron,

I need to get all the fins cut before I can change the lathe over. As soon as that is done, I will make up a bit of a post to show all the methods I know of to find centre height, then people can add their ways as well, so it will then become a reference post. Unless someone wants to start it off before I am finished.


John

Offline ozzie46

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2009, 11:12:31 AM »


 No hurry John, I know your pressed for time on these Halos.  I'll be waiting :coffee: :coffee:


Ron

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2009, 03:02:31 AM »
I went over to see John yesterday (didn't get onto my 'puter last night!) He showed me the cutting of the fins on these very small cylinders........  :bugeye:

5 min's and there's another done...! Fair do's a bit of forward planning added to the very quick and accurate turning of the handwheels and it was all done!


The DRO set up meant that the work was barely looked at :jaw:    I can see me saving up!  :lol:


It was good to see you John, seems like ages since the last time.... Always good to sit down and talk through stuff  :)




Also now I've got a little more than a bit of plastic material to practice making flywheel spokes on....... So now I have to concentrate!!!  :scratch:






I'll be looking forward to seeing how you get around the next bit when you do :thumbup:






Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline NickG

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2009, 03:49:34 AM »
Ralph, I remember using DRO's at university and I agree, good quality ones are superb. Just due to the amount and quality of equimpent, I made things there 11 years ago when I was 18 that I have not managed to repeat on my machinery!

I intend fitting some digital scales to my machinery but don't think I can justify proper DROs! Some of that money would probably be best spend on tooling for me such as a rotary table, quick change tool post, power hacksaw etc. things to take some of the tedious stuff out which will encourage me to do more!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2009, 03:51:13 AM »
Glad you enjoyed the demo Ralph. The DRO's do save a bit of time, but instead of DRO gazing, watching the handwheel dials would be almost as fast. A little bit of preparation, and difficult bits like cutting the fins are not difficult any more, as I showed you. Also, I was not doing anything that anyone else on here couldn't do, if a little bit of care is taken in the setting up.

It is always nice to have visitors, especially in these difficult times. It cheered Mal up no end.

Now you just get on and practice on that RT, you will soon be banging out flywheels by the dozen.

Thanks for the visit.

John.

Offline John-Som

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2009, 04:28:19 PM »
Good on ya Bogs

John S
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bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2009, 05:06:18 PM »
I was having a look thru my old posts, and when I came across this one, I realised I hadn't finished this bit off, so time to put it right.


As the finning was done, say in batches of half a dozen, I took a break to clean them up and get the threading done.
The first job was to get the rings of brass off that were displaced when the fins were cut. It was just a matter of cutting thru them with a small pair of nippers and pulling them off.
Next the holes to be tapped were given a nice angled lead in with a small countersink bit held in a pin chuck. This stops the threads throwing up a land around the hole and so causing seating problems for the cylinder head.
The 2-56 threads were cut using my tapping stand, and there were no problems. But I did break a tap after I cut the first hole. Not cutting a thread, but I had my tapping stand set incorrectly, and when I let go of the handle the spindle dropped, hitting the tap onto the base, and so snapping it clean in half. The other 80+ holes were all cut with the replacement tap with no further problems.
I bought the taps off Lance at Liney, and they really are very good quality and reasonably priced.




I can't remember whether it was Ralph or Stew who commented that they didn't realise how small the cylinders were when they called around.
So I have taken a piccy to show you some sort of scale, you will have to make the decision as to whether they are small or not.

They are less than 1" long.




So here are the finished cylinders. All 21 of them.
I started out with 23 blanks and two were lost along the journey, but the wayward ones were still put to good use setting up the lathe cutting, to save having to put the good ones in jeopardy.
Well over 200 fins were cut, and the original grooving tool that I used is still ready to do more if it was required. The rest of the tooling I ground up will be put into stock, because I am sure I will have fins like this to cut in the future, or some very thin parting off to do.



Now that things have stabilised a little on the home front, I hope to get back to making a bit more in the very near future.
There is no rush on the build now, as I have had to cancel my display for this year due to personal circumstances.


Bogs

Offline Darren

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2009, 05:20:41 PM »
Don't let my lack of comments fool you .......


I'm keeping an eye on you..... :)
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline chuck foster

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2009, 09:05:57 PM »
bogs you make it look so easy  :bow:

one thing i would like to know is, are the drawings simple and easy to understand??

chuck  :wave:
hitting and missing all the way :)

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bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2009, 10:18:24 PM »
Chuck,

In all honesty, with the experience of a few small engines under your belt, and with a little perseverance, almost anyone could make one of these if they have the equipment to do it with, and yes, the plans are very easy to understand.

With me looking ahead at what is to come, IMHO these cylinders, technically, are the hardest bits to make. The rest of the parts are just straight, but very accurate, machining jobs.


Bogs

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2009, 03:25:04 AM »
Don't let my lack of comments fool you .......


I'm keeping an eye on you..... :)

Me too an all......  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline kvom

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2009, 05:04:43 PM »
It's funny how perceptions of difficulty vary.   Except for the fins, the cylinders didn't look particularly challenging to me.  OTOH, the heads look like more work.

bogstandard

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2009, 06:14:05 PM »
Kirk,

Actually, my problems began when I opted for a round stock base to begin with, but it did make the boring and finning much easier. Starting with square, as long as it is spot on size, then getting the holes at 45degs to each other would be easier. I think it is just swings and roundabouts.

The heads pose no problems at all. It looks very complicated and difficult, but when broken down into each stage, it is just set up and drilling. The backstop and fixed vice jaw will take care of that very easily.
But again, if the square stock size isn't spot on, it would be very easy to get things a few thou out. That shouldn't bother me as I am making my own square bar.

Over the last year or so, I have made this engine dozens of times, in my head. Up to now, doing it physically has come out exactly to my expectations.

Bogs

Offline kvom

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Re: Project Halo
« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2009, 11:39:55 AM »
My current thought is to use round stock as well, but to mill the square flange before drilling the 8 holes.