Author Topic: methods of joining steel at 800C plus?  (Read 5620 times)

Offline RipSlider

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methods of joining steel at 800C plus?
« on: October 01, 2009, 12:33:24 PM »
Hello.

I would like to join some stainless steel pipe together to make a single piece about 60 foot long. I have asked before, and was reccomended to go to a pipe welder. My friend who knows much about the world of welding found me two different companies that weld pipe, but test jobs at both companies are not up to scratch.

The pipe is 1/4" OD in 20 SWG and it would seem this is fiendish to weld together without making significant closures in the pipe - i.e the weld penetrates inside and partially obstructs the tube - while I need it to be nice and clear.

I was wondering if anyone can thing of any other mechanisms that I can use to joint the pipes? The simplest would be to use a covering tube slightly wider which goes over the mating ends and solder this up.

However, this tube is going to be used in a flash steam boiler ( for a model boat ). It will be exposed to at least 800 degrees - hopefully nearer 1000, and operating at at least 1000psi - hopefully more - towards 3000psi.

Silver solder is out, welding is out so I'm not sure if there is any other option available.

Can anyone think of any other mechanisms to join two pieces of pipe? It needs to be small and unobtrusive, be able to withstand large amounts of heat and very high pressures. It will be directly exposed to flames as well.

Offline chuck foster

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Re: methods of joining steel at 800C plus?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2009, 12:44:38 PM »
1000 to 3000 psi................now this is interesting.

can you tell us more about this project you are working on ???

chuck  :wave:
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bogstandard

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Re: methods of joining steel at 800C plus?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2009, 01:06:31 PM »
You need to have it brazed rather than silver soldered. Same sort of technique but using much higher temperatures.


Bogs

Offline sbwhart

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Re: methods of joining steel at 800C plus?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2009, 01:42:22 PM »
Have you investigated laser welding ?, no filer material used, but at 60' there may be an issue getting it in the welding machine, but worth investigating.

Good luck

Stew

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Offline RipSlider

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Re: methods of joining steel at 800C plus?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2009, 02:10:01 PM »
1000 to 3000 psi................now this is interesting.

can you tell us more about this project you are working on ???

chuck  :wave:

Chuck,

Its sort of a long story, but the condensed version goes:

Circlip and RipSlider are sitting in a pub, and Circlip tells RipSlider ( who likes model boats and is pestering Circlip about using diesel engines to make a racing boat to do 100mph ) about model boats in the 1950's which did 100mph with ease, using a fabulous sounding system called "flash Steam".

RipSlider goes and reads books ( Of which there are only about 2 ), e-mails people and generally gabbles away until he finds out more about said subject. RipSlider is struck by the fact that the 100mph+ boats of the 1950's have nothing in the way of the hull design, prop design or any other goodness of a modern racing model boat. This makes RipSlider wonder what happens if you mix an ultra fast powerplant from the 1950's with an ultra-modern hull, trans-cavitating propellor and all the other goodies that are in todays model boat world.

The 1950's boats - up to 40" long - were using props 8" (!!!) in dia, and were sometimes developing so much torque that 5/16ths steel prop shafts were being bent 90 degrees. some of the plants were rated at 4 and even 6 bhp.


So - cunning plan - build flash steam power plant. Build fast hull. Graft two together.



Flash steam is one of those things that seems very easy, but rapidly ( I'm finding ) gets complex. At it's most basic, you get 30 foot of copper pipe and wrap it into a helix 2" in diameter. Then get your propane torch, set it burning down the centre of the helix and force water down the tube.

If you shove "pellets" of water into the tube, then the water will "flash" into steam, and then super-heat to very high levels. You then get super-heated steam out of the end of the pipe. Keep shovong in "pellets" of water, and you get masses of lovely superheated steam. To give an idea of efficiency, a 5" gauge model loco using an ultra-efficient boiler such as a Yarrow would be considered to be working fantastically if it was consuming 2.5lb of water a minute. Some Boswell pattern boilers have pushed towards 4lb a minute at a good super-heat.

A flash plant of the 1950's build by the experts would start to be considered "useful" by consuming 15lb of water a minute, and were considered "good" if they were converting 20lb a minute.



So, the traditionally "hard" bit of steam engines, the boiler, is actually really easy in flash steam, the problems come from the mechanicals.

If your flash steam boiler is producing steam at 2000psi - about average - then you need a water pump ( and one way valve system ) which can work in EXCESS of 2000psi, in order to be able to get the water into the tube in the first place.

Then you need an engine that can work at that sort of pressure. So that's piston valves basically - no slide valves, and probably not poppet valves either. But the thing will be wanting to run faster than the springs on the valves can close - a lot of the plants were running at 12,000rpm+. So then your either into desomdronic valve gear, or something simpler, but "off the beaten path", which you have to work out for yourself. I'm looking at the Wilkinson quick return gear.

The other thing is the burner - you need to be putting 800 degrees plus onto the tubes - which is easy enough you could just use a propane torch if it was still - but when the boat is doing 100mph, then that will just blow itself out - so it's a parrafin burner and a clever system of flame holders.

And you have to get all that kit in a boat 40" long and weighing no more than 8lb.

The thing which fascinates me about flash steam is that each of the individual components - apart from the engine - SEEM really simple. Oil system, pump system, burner, boiler - all of it is something you can fiddle with in the garage without investing a lot in either time or money. It's the putting it all together which is the challenge.


So, rather than tackle it all at once, I am looking at two area's first. Firstly is making the tubing for the boiler, which I think I want to be about 60 foot long.

The second is the burner, which is a fairly simple thing to make - it's making it run well in high winds that is the fiddly bit.

Then I'll do the main engine, then the ancilleries, such as pumps, oil etc. For testing I am using an electric pump.

As soon as I have something of interest I will post it.


Steve

Offline CrewCab

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Re: methods of joining steel at 800C plus?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2009, 02:40:28 PM »
As soon as I have something of interest I will post it.

You already have Steve  :thumbup: .......... I'm fascinated, and will be keeping an eye out for your progress, good luck ............ and if it doesn't work you can always blame Circlip  :beer:

CC

Offline chuck foster

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Re: methods of joining steel at 800C plus?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2009, 02:46:34 PM »
thanks for the info.................... good luck with this project and i will be watching for more on this story as it unfolds.

chuck  :wave:
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Offline HENNEGANOL

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Re: methods of joining steel at 800C plus?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2009, 03:29:50 PM »
Have you considered driving the boat using a steam turbine?  This was normal practice years ago when steamships  were in vogue and had HP and LP turbines utilising high pressure superheasted steam!  I seem to recall the Reeves used to sel akit for a rotary steam engine.

Gerald

Offline tinkerer

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Re: methods of joining steel at 800C plus?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2009, 02:47:45 PM »
Can you thread the ends and use a coupling welded on the outside? I dont know if the wall thickness would allow threading. If not, then just a sleeve welded on. Silfos flows at 800C and braze at 640C so they will do you no good. Welding is your only choice for this application. Use an external sleeve and find an aircraft welder and he will do you a fine job. You will have to ream the weld from the interior penetration. I reread your post and see 60' and not ". You will have to live with the penetration, or do many, many short sections and clean up as you join them. I assume that is not feasable.

Another thought is if you can thread the pipe, a coupling could be welded just to seal the end and not require penetration.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 03:08:18 PM by tinkerer »
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