Author Topic: Making a MT taper  (Read 15322 times)

Offline tinkerer

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Making a MT taper
« on: October 22, 2009, 01:25:53 PM »
This is going to be a very long project. It will be attempted in spurts, until I get dedicated time in the shop after football season. In general tools topics I started a thread on a new find that has lead me to this project of making a taper so I will have more choices in tools and am able to get the big 3 jaw chuck out of the way.
I started by verifying that I can match the taper with the compound. It took about 20 minutes to set up and I am quite confident I can match the taper within .001 +-.0005.
Bogs, I know what you mean by hard on the hands cranking the compound.
I have a hunk of steel large enough for what I have in mind. The next step is to get all of the dimensions together and devise a plan to do the actual turning.
The picture is of the initial setup matching the taper. It is academic, because I will have a lot of turning before I get to this point. Wish me luck, If I am successful, it may give total newbies confidence to attack anything.
 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 01:35:19 PM by tinkerer »
Tink

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Offline raynerd

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2009, 01:44:17 PM »
Good luck - Darren had a nice thread showing his setup for turning the MT for his RT adaptor: http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=1390.0


Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2009, 03:55:39 PM »
Thanks for that link. I will review all I can find when I get to the point of actual turning the taper.
Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19

Offline Gerhard Olivier

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2009, 04:05:22 PM »
Good luck Tinkerer

leave some extra lenght of stock and it gives the chance to cut any errors of with minimal loss. ( Mine was right only after 4th reset.)


Gerhard
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bogstandard

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2009, 04:09:49 PM »
Tink,

Even though you might not get it right first time, every time you do something new, you learn from it.

If you do bugger it up, you will learn not to do it that way again.

I'm sure you will succeed though, just take your time, and think about what you are doing, and I hope your hands don't ache too much.


Bogs

Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2009, 08:26:25 PM »
In between preping concession stands for homecoming and other events of the day, I accomplished this. I don't know how many times I cranked up and down the taper, but it was a lot. I think next time I try a taper, I will learn how to offset the tailstock, the carriage can do the work then.

I have to get some dykem blue to test the fit. Then make some decisions on how I want to complete the project.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 09:10:31 PM by tinkerer »
Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2009, 12:59:39 AM »
Good job Tink  :thumbup: :clap:

You could try some marker pen to test fit I've found it w0rks just as good as die chem.

Have fun

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Gerhard Olivier

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2009, 03:05:39 AM »
It looks good Tink

Good luck with the test fit.
Gerhard
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Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2009, 01:44:33 PM »
Gerhard,
I will be on my second setup. I have a little too much taper. How did you reset? My plan right now is to reset by .002 angle by the dial indicator. I have enough length that I can sneak up on it and cut out the portion that works. If you have a better solution, or anyone for that matter, I would be happy to attempt anything solution offered.
Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19

bogstandard

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2009, 02:47:05 PM »
Tink,

There are no easy ways around it, just do it as you have been, but start your cut on the old taper and use as much of that as can be.
Always cut your taper overlength a little. Take a measurement of the thick end of the original, and once you have your taper coming up to size, make your new one with that measurement taken say 1/4" from the thick end of the taper. You can always cut it down to length later.

Sounds confusing, but it isn't really

You've done well up until now, it is just a matter of fine tuning your taper measuring technique.


Bogs

Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2009, 05:08:47 PM »
Thanks fellas. I think it is like my putting, I read the line and didn't have confidence and pulled it out of the cup.  :bang: :bang:
 Bogs post gives me confidence, but Bama and Tenn are playing, so it will have to wait.
Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19

Offline Gerhard Olivier

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2009, 04:01:35 AM »
I did the really small hammer technique

Just as Bogs have said with lots of measuring.

You will get it just hang on.

Gerhard
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 05:25:01 AM by geroli »
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2009, 05:04:00 AM »
I turn Morse taper using the offset method, checking the off set with a DTI.

No1 Morse is 0.624" per foot:- No 2 0.599" per foot:- No 3 0.602":- N0 4 0.623:-

Just mark off a couple of inches on the bar, off set the tailstock and run the clock along the bar noting how much it moves when you get the correct figure lock everything up and go ahead and turn your taper you won't be far off.

Hope this helps

Stew

A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2009, 06:39:32 PM »
Stew,
My next taper will be done with the offset tailstock. The winding of the compound is just too much, especially since I don't have enough travel to cover the whole job and have to reset the carriage and wind all over again. Thanks for the tip and the dimensions. I was worried about getting the tail stock back in position, but with Bogs tip on the ruler, it shouldn't be that hard.

I will finish this taper as I am doing, but if I screw it up, I will learn the offset method.
Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19

bogstandard

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2009, 11:28:25 PM »
Tink,

What you have to realise, that when setting over the tailstock, you will have to learn about turning between centres first.

As soon as the tailstock is moved over and it is still used for support, then you cannot hold the one end in the chuck, both ends have to be supported on centres.

So something new for you to conquer.

Just a tip, centre drill both ends of the job BEFORE moving the tailstock off centre, as you won't be able to use the tailstock for drilling while it is off centre.


Bogs

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2009, 02:01:56 AM »
Tink her's a tip for getting you tail stop back on centre scribe a couple of lines at the correct position.



Her's a shot of turning between centres, I'ts a very accurate way to turn you can take the work out try it for fit and put it back and everything will be still nice and concentric.



Hope this helps

Stew

A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2009, 04:30:53 PM »
Bogs and Stew,
Thanks for the insight to turning between centers. Great tip on the tailstock centering marks. I was thinking yesterday about the lathe dog being necessary for offsetting the tailstock. That will be a new set of skills to develop. I have identified the bits required to be in my assortment of tools, so No purchases will be needed and that is a positive. I just found out we have two more games to play, so it will be sometime before I can dedicate myself to extended time in the shop, which I believe will be required to acquire the skills needed to operate consistently and safely.
Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19

Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2009, 12:21:59 PM »
I was feeling well enough to get in the shop yesterday, but I should have stayed away. I got the taper right and started parting it off. I forgot to release the pressure on the tail stock and just as I was near the center it locked up and snapped the belt. I called Blue Ridge Machinery and ordered a new one and while I was there, I ordered a set of change gears. It is cheaper to buy the set than it is to buy the four I need individually.
Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19

Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2009, 01:52:48 PM »
While waiting for the belt and change gears, I adjusted my tail stock according to Bogs thread on doing so. It was pretty close to start with, so only took a minute or two to get dead on. I discovered a factory mark on the tail stock for centering and after adjusting, it seemed to be accurate. A little  :offtopic: My ideas about making pens is in stall until I can find someone to powder coat. It seems the only company I have near me is not willing to do just a single item and won't even quote a price to add it in with a batch. I haven't given up, but am a little discouraged. Hopefully, the belt will be here Monday and I can get on with the taper.
Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19

Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2009, 06:22:10 PM »
Well, my belt showed up Tuesday. I had chores, but found time to make the bar round. Wednesday was working on the car, so no progress. Today I got started on the taper. I buggered up the first one, so this is a start over deal. We have awards at the touchdown club tonight, so this is as far as I got today.

The change gears are on back order. I hope I get them by the time I need to do some threading for the draw bar. One thing I learned from another post, If I crank in .30 and back off .10 on the cross slide, I get a much better finish and no swarf when cranking back to the start point. I forgot who posted that, but thanks.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 06:24:24 PM by tinkerer »
Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19

Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2009, 11:41:44 AM »
Over the last several days, I finished the taper and drilled and taped 1/2 X 13 threads for the draw bar. I can't go any further until the change gears get here so I can make the draw bar. I will have to practice making threads because I have never done that. This was done in 15-20 minute spurts as I had time, so no pictures. I just didn't think about it. After I get the draw bar made, I will be able to turn the spigots to adapt the collet holder to the taper.
Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19

Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2009, 01:46:52 PM »
Here are a couple of pictures, one of the taper and one of the threads. I can tell you, this metal is fickle. It isn't consistant throughout in hardness. Sometimes the metal comes off very smooth and other times it chips and grinds. Tapping it was an experience in holding my breath, expecting anything could go wrong at any moment. I doubt I could have tapped it with anything smaller than 1/2" without breaking a tap. Come on change gears.

Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19

bogstandard

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2009, 02:12:38 PM »
Tink,

The worst thing you can do with unknown material is to try to turn or thread it dry.
 
You must use some sort of lube. If you haven't got the right one, anything is better than nothing at all. Even dirty engine oil (not recommended, but as I said anything is better than nothing). Spit on the end of the centre drill is an old machinist trick when starting to cut with it.

Bogs

Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2009, 03:24:37 PM »
Thanks Bogs. I have Boelube for drilling and tapping and never even gave it a thought to use it. :bang: :bang: You would think having drilled a quadrillion holes, it would be second nature to grab a lube. That must be what retirement does. I have many things to do before I have it set up properly. I have to set up a collection system for lube. I have an old hydroponics pump and tank for a delivery system, but I have to build a way to get it back to the tank. What type of lube is recommended and do you run it through a filter constantly? My local scrappy is working with me to get all of the materials I will be needing, it will just take some time before I can dedicate myself.

I have been reading threads about threading and I see that Darren uses the 90 deg with success, but I also see that others recommend an angle of 29.5 deg on the top slide. I will practice on aluminum first, but the 29.5 makes a lot of sence to keep the back of the cutter from rubbing. I see now why 3 &4 year apprenticeships are served before becoming Journeymen.
Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19

Offline Darren

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2009, 03:29:59 PM »
Hi Tink,

You are right that I use 90deg or straight plunge when threading. So far I have got away with it.

The main reason people set over to about half the angle is to reduce the cutting face and thus chatter. It's probably just a question of suck it and see how your tooling copes.
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2009, 04:02:59 PM »
Tink,

As Darren says.

On a smaller machine, they can't usually stand the heavy cutting forces that a straight in approach can produce. I could use straight in cutting, but I have always done it the offset way, and it is difficult to break the habits of a lifetime.

I am still putting my lube on with a squirty bottle, and will continue to do so until I can get my spray lube system up and running. I do have pumped flood coolant, but I won't use it because of the way the cabinets are designed, I can't get to the tank to clean it out, so it has never been filled up and used.


Bogs

Offline John Hill

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2009, 02:28:40 AM »
John , do you have the sloped panel in place between the cabinets?  I put mine aside and now the coolant tank lives just behind the brake pedal and directly under the coolant drain.  I still hate getting in and scooping the oil off the top of the coolant as the tank is a real awkward darn thing.
From the den of The Artful Bodger

bogstandard

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2009, 03:27:59 AM »
John, my courtesy plate, if you can call it that, is still in position, and acts as a backstop for the heavy duty shelf I have put between the cabinets.

Without it there, all my chucks would be liable to get pushed back and end up on the floor.

I am not bothered, as flood coolant, especially one that has such coarse control can be a PITA if it starts to throw coolant about.

I will just persevere with bottle fed until the spraymist units are up and running. I ordered the final flexi hoses that are required last night, so they will then go onto my tuit list.


John


Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2009, 10:45:03 AM »
Waiting for the change gears is like watching grass grow. I called and found it may be two more weeks.  :offtopic: I spent some time adjusting backlash out of the top slide. Can't seem to get better than .003. Went on to other things, like tuning the chain saw, lubing the cement mixer,waxing the tool surfaces (table saw, bandsaw, jointer etc.) I guess next, I will sharpen some drill bits and practice grinding soom cutters for the lathe. Oh yeah, I kill time reading all of the new posts too.
Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19

Offline kvom

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2009, 12:57:59 PM »
I use the 29.5 method normally, but for the small threads used in model engines (e.g., 5-40), I've been using a 1-pass straight-in method to get partial threads that are straight, and then finishing with a die.  Doing it this way means that my threading tool doesn't need to be as precisely ground.

Tink, since you live fairly close by, let me know if you'd care to get together one of these days.

Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2009, 03:40:43 PM »
Tink, since you live fairly close by, let me know if you'd care to get together one of these days.
I didn't realize anyone lived near Marietta. I would love to get together. I'll send you an email with my info.
Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19

Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2009, 06:11:29 PM »
As I was going through Mark's (old-biker-uk) website, marveling at his talent and myriad of hobbies, the doorbell rang. I got to the door in time to see the brown truck drive off and found this setting in the doorway.

So much for two weeks, I think he told me that so I wouldn't bug him about it. Tomorrow is going to be a good day in the shop.
Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19

bogstandard

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2009, 07:16:08 PM »
Forget about those wiggly edged things, think about what you can do with that great bolt!


Bogs

Offline tinkerer

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Re: Making a MT taper
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2009, 01:33:28 PM »
A fun morning. I turned a piece of aluminum down to .50 and proceeded to set up for threading 1/2 X 13. Took quite awhile to figure out the gear mounts could slide up and down to provide the correct spacing, but I finally got it.

Then I found a cutter that appeared to be about the right angle and put it in the top slide and tested how fast my reactions would have to be to stop the motor. I used 120 rpm and I had plenty of time. I found that I needed to back off the cutter before reversing the motor. This is the only picture I took of the setup after I made a scribing line with the cutter.

This is the cutter I used.

This is the result. Now I know I can do this, I will take the measurements and make a mockup of the draw bar using the aluminum, to prove the concept. then I will make one out of steel.
Tink

The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.
Prov 13:19