Safe from condensation

[ieezitin]

Hi guys. Its been a while since I have posted. Anyways my question is this. With the fall and winter months approaching here in the northern hemisphere, the weather is going to run amuck with damp and wet conditions which will inevitably will creep around the shop like the grim reaper.
 
I know the fundamentals on keeping your machine and tooling safe from condensation and such but I would like to know some tricks you have to stop this fiend?.

My shop is un-heated as yet but a wood stove is planned in the next month. So this is what I have to work with
Thanaks  Anthony.

[jim]

i had massive problems in the past

i tried a heater on a timer switch (to keep the cost down), but this made it worse (as the shop cooled, it pulled in the damp air).

last winter i ran an electric radiator, constant temp ( as near as i can afford) seemed much better.

the ideal is a dehumidifer (however its spelt).

[tinkerer]

Anthony,
I have the same situation. Damp Georgia weather can get to the tools quickly. I just have a schedule for preventative measures. It works as long as you stick to it. A heater will make a difference if the temp stays constant.

[Maninshed]

Hi here in th UK we get damp weather all the time it did'nt seem to stop raining all summer. I use a dehumidifier in my workshop which I have found to be successful, however my shop isn't that big 14ft by 8ft. You guys seem to have bigger shops in garages or under the house, initially I had problems with condensation due I think to the concrete floor, one important thing is insulation in the shop, I have found that the due point (when condensation starts to form) is around 50 deg C, so if you can keep things around that temp it helps (yes I know your winters are alot more severe than ours). The dehumidifier I have keeps the humidity at about 60% (some dehumidifiers are adjustable). I tend to put it on when its damp or raining to keep the cost down as power ain't cheap here either. Humidifiers have optimum operating temperatures so the colder it is in the shop the less moisture it will draw off.
Another more awkward method of  keeping moisture at bay is to sheet up your machines and put a 60watt tube heater under the sheet on a timer to keep things warm locally so to speak. I use tube heaters on thermostates to keep things about 50 deg C, hope this may be of some help.

[bogstandard]

After many years of all sorts of heating systems tried, last winter I seem to have found the ideal one for me. Remember, for ME, maybe not someone else.

It is a small electric oil filled radiator with a thermostatic control (20 squid from Wilko's), and very soon I will be turning it on, and it won't get switched off until March or April next year.

It takes 3 to 4 days to raise the ambient temperature of my 16x9 insulated shop and all machinery up to around 55 to 60 degs.F.

To me that is a nice winter working temperature and as long as the door isn't left open too long it stays that way.

Once the mass of the machines gets up to temperature, the radiator only comes on for a minute or so each hour, and I noticed that my electricity bill was slightly lower than if I was using a radiant or blower heater, and they would only give local heat for the time you were in the shop, and it was freezing cold when you first went in there. I can now wear t-shirts in the middle of winter, plus I have the feel of nice warm machinery, rather than freezing cold lumps of iron..

One thing you must try to avoid are fuel run heaters, like paraffin (kerosene), as they can sometimes produce large amounts of water vapour when run.


Bogs


Bogs

[ieezitin]

Well I think the dehumidifier is the way I shall go first, it makes sense to me as you are removing the offender at source. Also the schedule of oiling over the equipment makes probably the most sense as while you are doing maintenance you are making sure no damage is being done.

I forgot to mention but it was spoken of in a reply my floor is 6” thick concrete and I know that’s hurting me, I was thinking about making a sub base planked  floor but jeeze that’s a lot of work.

Would be nice if all the tooling and machinery would be made from high grade stainless and chrome! Imagine that uh.

Any thoughts on those little packets of moisture absorbing thingies ?

Thanks for your replies  Anthony.

[jim]

i lived in a VERY damp house a whike back and tried them moisture removal crystals, they sure took a lot of water out the air, but the cost would probably be better spent on heating!

Mrs JIm, thinkls that the heating in the worksop is money well spent just have to show her something thats gone rusty in there and shes all for me running me electric radiator

when you think of the money spent on tooling etc, its worth what it costs to keep it safe. i bought an electricity monitor a few years ago. since the middle of jan i've only used £60 in the workshop

[John Hill]

Insulation is the key!  Condensation occurs when our precious machines have a surface temperature below that of the dew point.  The dew point rises and falls throughout the day and depending upon humidity is somewhat less than the ambient temperature and to avoid condensation we have to keep those surfaces between the two and this is easier if insulation is reducing the range of temperature change.

Heating the air, although it provides a temporary relief actually increases its water carrying ability and provides even more water should condensation occur, remember that the driest place on earth is in Antarctica.

 

[usn ret]

Never a problem with the tinworm and its relatives here. Oh, by the way I live in the SoCal desert, it rained 2" last year,   the drops were 2" apart.
Cliff

[Weston Bye]

Years ago they used to sell a little 15 or 45W electric bar heater to put in your piano or electronic organ to drive off moisture.  The same could be applied to a machine tool:

If you can't heat the whole area you might consider dropping a tarp or blanket over your machines and leaving a (protected) 100W or so incandescent light bulb burning under the tarp.  Under the tarp it shouldn't take much energy to keep the temperature a little higher than the dewpoint.  The iron in the machine will absorb the heat and may be "slightly" more comfortable when you grasp the handwheels, and have a head start when you turn on the larger space heater to warm the rest of the shop.

[cedge]

 
It's just dawned on me that I possibly have free access to a ceiling hung, natural gas, thermostat controlled radiant heater that just might fit in my garage, with only a short run of easy to access gas line. The cost would be just about zero, but I thought I'd ask how the condensation thing might come into play. If all went well, I should be able to set a minimum temp and keep things relatively constant, but I thought I'd ask you guys if I'm missing something here.

Steve

[John Hill]

Westib Bye    Exactly what is required, just a small amount of heat to keep the valuable stuff above dew point.

[DeereGuy]

Guys another thing you can try is to keep air circulating all the time.  I have a ceiling fan in my 15 x 16 shop and it has ran pretty constant on low for the last two years.  A dehumidifer will definetely make a difference.

[CrewCab]

I possibly have free access to a ceiling hung, natural gas, thermostat controlled radiant heater 

Steve I  know the propane / butane fired gas heaters we use over here throw out a lot of moisture, I tried one in the garage a few years ago, it warmed the place up but after about 15 minutes it was like a rainstorm with condensation dripping off the roof sheets     

however ........... I don't think natural gas produces a similar amount of water vapour  ............ bit hopefully some of the guys can be more definite.

CC

[Weston Bye]

It's just dawned on me that I possibly have free access to a ceiling hung, natural gas, thermostat controlled radiant heater that just might fit in my garage, with only a short run of easy to access gas line. The cost would be just about zero, but I thought I'd ask how the condensation thing might come into play. If all went well, I should be able to set a minimum temp and keep things relatively constant, but I thought I'd ask you guys if I'm missing something here.

Steve

I used an unvented (propane) radiant heater in my first shop.  This produced a lot of water vapor, but was not a problem as long as I kept the temperature up.  What was a problem however, was the combustion by-products that formed a yellowish film on everything over the years.  The plastics used for computer cases, telephones & such took on a yellow tinge.  Paper and cloth were also affected, taking on the appearance of great age.

[andyf]

CC opined: I don't think natural gas produces a similar amount of water vapour  [as propane or butane]

Natural gas is largely methane CH₄; propane is C₃H₈ and butane is C₄H₁₀. So I should have thought the ratio of water to carbon dioxide after combustion will be greater with natural gas (methane) than with propane or butane. But it's 46 years since my organic chemistry at school.

Andy

[Darren]

My Central heating boiler has a water drain from the combustion chamber, a fair bit of water comes out of that.

I think the old systems sent the water out the flue, but don't quote me on that cos I'm not a plumber ....

[raynerd]

CC opined: I don't think natural gas produces a similar amount of water vapour  [as propane or butane]

Natural gas is largely methane CH₄; propane is C₃H₈ and butane is C₄H₁₀. So I should have thought the ratio of water to carbon dioxide after combustion will be greater with natural gas (methane) than with propane or butane. But it's 46 years since my organic chemistry at school.

Andy

CH₄ + 2O₂ --> 2H₂O + CO₂

C₃H₈ + 5O₂ --> 4H₂O  + 3CO₂

C₄H₁₀  +  6.5O₂  --> 5H₂0  + 4CO₂

So bigger hydrocarbens do produce more water per mole of fuel burnt but out of the three alkanes shown, the longer hydrocarbons have greater enthalpies of combusion and are more exotheric....they burn hotter, so I guess you wouldn`t need it on as long!! Is it swings and round-abouts?? I don`t know, interesting thought ....

[raynerd]

... that was a conversation killer.

[Darren]

Can't really follow on with that Chris, I have no idea what all that means 

[CrewCab]

I think the old systems sent the water out the flue, 

Think your right Darren, the new breed are "Condensing Boilers" and have a condensate drain in addition to the other pipe connections ................... however I think that helps really, if Steve's heater has a flue to vent to the outside than condensation shouldn't be a problem, if not ................. then it's probably a bit of an issue 

CC

[bogstandard]

I just thought I would let you know, my small oil filled rad was turned on for the winter season last weekend.

I went into the shop this evening, and everything is now at a stable equalised temperature, with no freezing cold feeling when you touch the machinery.

That will do me for a few months.


Bogs

[Darren]

It's still warm outside here, warmer than inside the house.

I went outside a couple of days ago and got quite a shock, it was t-shirt temps and I had dome digging to do 

[flint]

My problem may be a little more severe than some...I can expect my shop space in the unheated garage I plan to use to be as low as -40C. Needless to say I won't be out in that for long! On the one hand the condensation at that temp should be minimal until I heat up the shop. On the other, once I start turning up the heat, I can expect the cold metal to attract any moisture in the air creating frost. I expect that I will have to either put off any work during the cold months to avoid this or heat the shop to at least a comfortable level say -10C which may be costly. I'm working on getting the insulation in as the first step and will see what happens. As of now, my lathe is sitting in the middle of my office in a big wooden box. Lots of questions from passersby..."Is that a body in there?"

[Darren]

My problem may be a little more severe than some...I can expect my shop space in the unheated garage I plan to use to be as low as -40C. Needless to say I won't be out in that for long!

By ek, I thought 10deg was blooming cold for the workshop. I have heavily insulated my new workshop. I saw the cost of the insulation as an investment by leaving my heating quota in my pocket over the years and not in the utility suppliers.

Thankfully around here it mostly stays above freezing with the odd dip to around -3 or so. Generally that is ....

[flint]

Darren, At least -40 is a "dry cold". I have spent time in Edinburgh (Feb to March). I can tell you that I wore the same jacket I wear here with an added sweater, and I was still cold even though the temp was never much below zero. At least in the shop I don't have to worry about windchill 

[Darren]

yes I suppose the water content does add something, and I'd know all about that living in the wettest part of the UK...

"THE" wettest part ... but we don't get much frost as this side is warmer than the other ..... I say warmer ....