our trade goes by. its a shame

[ieezitin]

The decline in craftsmanship.


Well lads, I am 47 years old and my apprenticeship was with Bowater Scott co in south east England. I was a fitter turner, that term has vanished . I now live in the USA and have lived here for 20 years, my profession is now a pipe fitter welder,  welding was a side skill that was in my teaching, but here is the USA it’s a trade.

Machining here in the US is looked upon as a pastime, the real machinists are long gone from here, the trade is not looked upon as a trade!. Computers are filling in the jobs. There are machinists here but they are few to be noticed.

This world may revolve and keep going as it is and the US will continue ignoring tradesman that it has left behind  but I say  if it does not wake up It will play in a great demise even further to where it is now. A skill will always be a skill.

I am sorry I had to vent.     God bless.  Anthony.

[tinkerer]

Anthony,
I know what you are talking about. Lockheed Marietta used to be the largest machine shop under one roof. I remember during the C5A days giant mills turning out fuselage frames. They had a spinning lathe they made engine fairings on. It was told, it was the last one around. Now very little is done except assembly of parts made all over the world. The airlines used to have a lot of machines and some still do. CNC and 3D laser scanning is common now, but tons of the work are shipped to the OEM's as the repair work is in the purchase contracts. It is easier and cheaper to farm it out than it is to do it inhouse.

[Bernd]

I have to agree. I used to work for one of the premiere manufacturers of gear cutting machines. The business is slowly dieing out because of CNC machines and modern software.

Bernd

[jim]

its as bad here.

how the hell we've ended up in a world where the far east supply most of the CNC's is amazing.

we where talking at work about about where the best quality measuring stuff is made, everyone said Mititoyo, JAPAN


i can't see it changing. India is reckoned to be the next growth area in engineering

[Raggle]

Sad, isn't it?

But there IS a way to get it back. It won't happen in my lifetime (pushing 68) now because it has to start again from scratch. It has to do with education.

Whenever I travel around and see factory estates  -  dunno what the term is in US  -  I wonder what people are making in the factories. If I visit city centre shops I try to see if there are any goods made in those factories and so far I have been unable to match the two.

When a kid gets disposable income he spends it on foreign-made cellphones, PCs, clothing, etc with NO conception of keeping his fellow countrymen in work. His parents have likely made more "money" in the value of their homes than the fruits of their labour over the past few years. Therefore their jobs have been exported. Their now unneeded skills have not been passed to the next generation.

So where do we start? With the Unimat 1  -  a machine much derided in hobby groups all over the 'net as being "not up to the job". This attitude misses the point of what the job is and is largely based on the basic machine with no upgrade.

Here is the job  -  http://www.unimateducation.com/

The modular nature of the system can be seen to be almost open ended in its scope, up to full CNC at present.

A child entering into such technical education will have a very full understanding not only of how things work but how they are made. He should also have a feeling of national pride. You can't get that if you forbid kids to go near anything sharp or hot.

The system has a Chinese clone  -  http://www.xendoll.com/english/file/products_1.asp  -  where the units are strangely yellow.

As I said earlier, I think it will take a generation. But only if we stop electing gov'ts that are only concerned with redistributing wealth instead of creating obstacles for its creation.

Ray (joining in the rant)

[Darren]

Biggest problem we have in this area is language ... Before I go on I'm not pro or anti Welsh language.... makes no odds to me I understand both and have little need for either employment wise.

But we currently have a real problem, it's been bad for decades but now it's coming to a head. Then local bods have been pushing the Welsh language so hard that now school education is only done in the medium of Welsh.

Our eldest started collage this summer and is now faced with being asked to leave because her English is so poor they don't think she will be able to complete the coarse with a high enough grade. I understand she's not alone here and it's becoming a big issue.

She's only taking a low level interim coarse, nothing high level at all. Class size has been reduced by one third in the first half term already.


And people blame education ... too right IMHO

One in four teachers in secondary education have had assault cases filed, tells you something....

I say bring back the cane and make the buggers learn something ... it's all gone too far, maybe very much too far to recover from.

[bogstandard]

You only have to look at the quality of the graduates coming out of universities.

Most can't even write correctly, and without a calculator they are absolutely lost. Whatever happened to the three R's.

I couldn't believe the report that my grandson had from his school. Almost every teacher had spelling mistakes, bad grammar and appauling punctuation in their handwritten (very bad handwriting as well) reports. How can they teach children, when they have the same basic standards of education I was at when I was 12 or 13.

I have worked with university engineering graduates who, if they went to pick their noses, I would dread to think where their finger would eventually end up. They hadn't a clue. But they were given preference over a 50 odd year old highly skilled man, who could do their job backwards without even breaking into a sweat, and who had hardly any formal qualifications, except for a good engineering background.

Until they get rid of all the do gooders and mamby pamby a**eholes who "think" they are doing good for the modern day kids, we don't stand a chance.

All the children need is some good parental and state discipline, and a GOOD education, by people who can TEACH, not by people who think they can.

Maybe then, we would have the basic building blocks for this country to become good again.

But I doubt it very much if it would ever happen. There is just too much money waste and worship going on.

People are not judged nowadays by their qualities and beliefs, but by how much money they have now, or expected to have in the future.


Rant over


Bogs

[raynerd]

I wanted to team up (cross-curricular link) with Technology to have a small group of Resistant Material students build a simple engine, either a wobbler or a mccabe runner. I teach Chemistry so my interest was purely due to my interests as a hobby, it took me a few days pestering to a get the technology teacher onboard and the technology technician being a ex-tool maker was also really up for it. He went to ask the head of technology and you know what stopped the show - health and safety! And that is health and safety of the kids, not due to their lack of teaching experience.
They have a really nice metal lathe, they have a huge Ajax mill and ... you got it! - Kids can`t use either because of health and safety. The mill is totally out of bounds and is now unplugged and the lathe is used only for very very simple teacher demonstartions. Need I say more .....

Chris

John - don`t be too quick to lump teachers together in one pot. There are some bad ones but there are many very good ones; it is hard to educate students with no morals, motivation or respect. I`m lucky, my school is great but I know a number of friends who feel sick driving in to work each morning. 

[CrewCab]

I have great difficulty finding fault with any of the above, I do agree that to get any improvement it must start with education but Bogs is right I too have worked with university graduates that I wouldn't pay in washers, but they get precedence over skilled personnel, sad reflection on society .......... plus people/governments need to realise the need for these vanishing skills ................  if everyone eventually works in a call centre what's left  

Darren, I know I said above that education is the key and I do believe that, but teaching only in Welsh just takes the pi$$, sorry no offence but it's going to end up costing a lot of kids an education, the do-gooders ain't gonna stump up and put that right are they, either in Welsh or English.

Rant mode <off>

Have a nice day guys

CC

[CrewCab]

it is hard to educate students with no morals, motivation or respect. I'm lucky, my school is great but I know a number of friends who feel sick driving in to work each morning. 

A good perspective Chris 

CC

[tinkerer]

Bogs,
Right on brother. An associate degree is equivelant to the high school diploma of years ago. The advance placement classes they offer in high school now are the same classes I took in the 50's as part of the regular curriculum. They are teaching down to the ones not willing to apply themselves just to meet the mandates handed down by government. I believe the answer lies in private schools and technical training for those that will not attend higher education universities. Then the educated will employ the skilled, as it used to be.

[bogstandard]

Chris,

It wasn't aimed at you personally, and I do recognise the bit about students.

All the children need is some good parental and state discipline

In my statement, that was the first thing to be put right.

BRING BACK THE SLIPPER FOR KIDS FROM 6 UP TO 11, THE CANE AFTER THAT UNTIL 16, THEN PUBLIC FLOGGING, BRANDING AND HANGING.

Before 6, that would depend on the parents, then after that it should come under public control in schools. I personally would pay to have a go at carrying out the last bits.

Doesn't it show how much I love modern day delinquents kids.


Bogs

[mklotz]

I couldn't believe the report that my grandson had from his school. Almost every teacher had spelling mistakes, bad grammar and appauling  punctuation in their handwritten (very bad handwriting as well) reports. How can they teach children, when they have the same basic standards of education I was at when I was 12 or 13.

Why are you surprised, John?  Look at the appalling (note spelling, please) writing one sees from native English speakers on this and most other online fora.  These are mostly older folks who went to school when something was still being taught there yet the level of their writing is pitiful.  Yet, if one mentions it, one is shouted down - it's OK because it's informal, I don't have time to worry about writing, et cetera ad nauseum.  Do you really expect the youngsters to think it's important to learn to write (or do mathematics) when their parents and grandparents can't even be bothered to proofread what they've written, much less learn how to correct their childish, obvious and constantly recurring mistakes?

I have worked with university engineering graduates who, if they went to pick their noses, I would dread to think where their finger would eventually end up. They hadn't a clue. But they were given preference over a 50 odd year old highly skilled man, who could do their job backwards without even breaking into a sweat, and who had hardly any formal qualifications, except for a good engineering background.

I'm sick to death of you old timers ragging on university graduates.  Today, a university degree is required to assure the employer that the individual is even modestly literate and capable of doing simple sums.  You old timers were the people who created this situation by demeaning the need for skills outside of the narrow requirements of your particular trade.  Now it's come back to haunt you.

Lead by example, not by geriatric ranting about the mistakes you helped create.

I'll probably get thrown off this forum for writing this but I don't really care.  I'm one of you old timers and I've been ranting for a lifetime about how bad mouthing education will eventually lead to a situation where education is no longer valued.  It seems we've arrived.

[CrewCab]

I'll probably get thrown off this forum for writing this 

Nope, you'll have to try harder than that Marv ................... so we all agree ............. It's down to (re) education ........... 

Now how do we put it right 

CC

[John Hill]

Chris,

It wasn't aimed at you personally, and I do recognise the bit about students.



In my statement, that was the first thing to be put right.

BRING BACK THE SLIPPER FOR KIDS FROM 6 UP TO 11, THE CANE AFTER THAT UNTIL 16, THEN PUBLIC FLOGGING, BRANDING AND HANGING.

Before 6, that would depend on the parents, then after that it should come under public control in schools. I personally would pay to have a go at carrying out the last bits.

Doesn't it show how much I love modern day delinquents kids.


Bogs

Right on Bogs, I am with you all the way.  Even I remember from my school days there were a few of the girls I would have liked to give a good spanking!

[tinkerer]

Marv,
Your opinions are as valuable as any other. Education is not valued as it used to be, that is the degree a person is educated to. A high school diploma is not as valuable as it was, an associate degree is not as valuable as it once was, a bachelors degree is not as valuable as it once was. Phd's are required for the higher pay scales.

By valued, I mean the earning power is not what it used to be. A journeyman machinist that loads the machine and presses the start button is not going to be paid as much as the CNC programmer that sits in an office environment drinking coffee and staring at a computer screen. The difference is the degree of education.

[Darren]

Marv, theres a lot more two life than corect spellin and grama,
 
That is far from the problem IMHO, personally I feel respect and contribution come way higher.

Chris, I feel sorry for teachers today, they have their hands tied by do-gooders that have done little for children in reality. If a child can do as they wish then they will probably do very little.

And that I feel is what is happening. They know it, we know it, even the Government knows it. Problem is no-one wants to take the bull by the horns and do something about it.

Political correctness is in the same bucket.

[CrewCab]

Marv, theres a lot more two life than corect spellin and grama,

 

Got to say I'm with Marv on this issue, I was taught grammar and spelling both at school and home, as have my offspring, it's not Rocket Science; it was good enough for the likes of Shakespeare and Churchill so why do we need to change a proven formulae to suit people too idle to learn the language; though I do agree respect needs to be resurrected big time.

CC  ......................... slowly climbing down of high horse ................   

[raynerd]

Today, a university degree is required to assure the employer that the individual is even modestly literate and capable of doing simple sums.  You old timers were the people who created this situation by demeaning the need for skills outside of the narrow requirements of your particular trade.  Now it's come back to haunt you.

Too right - take a Medicing or Veterinary Degree, the only degrees which specify a specific A-level subect and it is not even Biology but  Chemistry. Why? Not because you need the chemistry, but because getting an A at A-level Chemistry shows an ability to learn! That is an extreme example but looking around at my friends that came out of Uni at the same time as me most with 2:1 or 2:2 and they are now managers at B&Q or Tesco! So a BSc with Honors in Pharmacology or in Aerospace Engineering takes you to the top of Tesco  

[Darren]

Dave, I've often noticed those that spell well place themselves a little higher than others. Some no doubt are quite special people in their own right, most are not.

Shakespeare couldn't spell btw, didn't even write proper English, even for the time .... 

[Raggle]

"Health and Safety"  -  these words get bandied about as being the sole cause of our ills. I remember a visit from the HSE man when I was working as a printer. Nice chap, all he was looking for was evidence that my employer had taken every reasonable measure for me to operate safely. Had I, for instance, worked with potentially hazardous liquids without the gloves provided I did so at my own risk and would have fared badly in any possible litigation arising from it.

Their work will be over when they have managed to reduce the appalling loss of life and limb in the construction and agricultural industries.

When you hear of those school machines being placed out of bounds on "Health and Safety" grounds you are actually hearing about the insurance risk. Talk to an actual insurance man and he will tell you the risks are low.  The decision to ban the use is most likely to have been made by a semi-literate graduate, new in the post of educational establishment administration, afraid of the quote. This person will in all likelihood be an arts, not science, graduate and will never have seen a machine before.

A private school for potential engineers?  Great idea  -  who'll fund it? I hope not the gov't. While we're at it we need one for commerce.

Maybe someone can enlighten me. I heard some years ago that in Germany it was illegal to employ a person under 18 except under the direct supervision of a master craftsman. Was that true and is it still the case?

Ray

[Darren]

Good job H&S can't get into our little playrooms .... last lodger we had for 6mths was a H&S guy for a large contractor.

He walked in the workshop one day, walked out again and asked me to shut the door. He never came in after that.
He was a nice chap though and did at least say we could do whatever we liked in our own homes. We that is, not friends even if they have their own machines and not our children.

I'm not sure how correct he was on the last two ?

[cedge]

Much at guilt are the educated who are given an MBA degree that preaches short term profits over long term survival for a company that puts them in positions of fiduciary trust. No wonder most of our production jobs are no longer ours.... they were  sacrificed on the alter of  quarterly profit and loss statements that required them to outperform or die. It wasn't just the lack of education that has sent us down this primrose path. Those who we trained above beyond the common man also have their own blooded hands to wash.

And....before Marv blows bubbles out his ears.... I've pretty much paraphrased the recent comments of the Dean of Harvard Business Schools. His confession was a prelude to an admission that his school badly needed to realign their philosophies to find better ways of including ethics back into the curriculum mix.

Yes.... the public educational system is broken, but the students didn't break it.... at least not without parental permission. Our own complicity in protecting them from disappointment and hurt feelings over a bit of tough love and discipline has given rise to the current lack of performance. Today it's the student who really wants to learn that struggles hardest against the system. The rest were already destined to fill blue collar jobs that will need filling as our population growth slows and an aging Boomer population retires and begins to require more money to live out their last days.

Again..... that last was from an article written about 1976 in a treatise concerning the need for "outcome based education" in the American schools in order to provide an adequate menial labor force that would be needed "at the turn of the century". The same article suggested a relaxation of our laws to allow enough immigration, legal and illegal, to make up for the rest. 

HMmmmmm... why do I suddenly feel like a conspiracy theorist?

Steve

[Baldrocker]

  Today, a university degree is required to assure the employer that the individual is even modestly literate and capable of doing simple sums

Marv.
If the above is so what does that say about the worth of a Degree?

BR

[Baldrocker]

how the hell we've ended up in a world where the far east supply most of the CNC's is amazing

Jim
Its called complacency.
But, who cares?
BR

[raynerd]

He was a nice chap though and did at least say we could do whatever we liked in our own homes. We that is, not friends even if they have their own machines and not our children.

I'm not sure how correct he was on the last two ?

  I`d like to know if that is true?! Surely if it is in your home and someone comes in to join you, then surely it is their responsibility?!?

[Darren]

Chris. I think you'll find it's your responsibility,

can anyone verify that?

[bogstandard]

This subject has been discussed many times on other sites.

As recognised by insurance companies, if you are working by yourself in your own area, then you are OK.

As soon as another person enters that area, no matter who, the area then becomes a public place, and it is your responsibility to provide at least third party insurance cover, even if it is in your own home.

People rant and rave that they can do anything on your own property, which you can within reason, but as soon as another person is involved, even wife and kids, your own property then comes under government rulings and cover has to be provided.
Say your wife enters where you are working, slips and hurts herself. She has a claim against you under law, because you allowed an accident to happen, and you failed to prevent that accident happening.
It could be construed that if you tripped over one of your kids toys, you could claim against the rugrat. But in real life that doesn't happen.

If you look on your household policy, you might or might not find that you are already covered for such occasions. If not, it shouldn't cost too much to get it included. Usually it costs very little for up to 2 million squid cover. You should also have in place a goodly amount to cover you for legal costs, on mine, 100,000 squid. When I sued my former employer, I had to have that cover in place, just in case I lost the battle. Luckily I won.

A lot of local UK councils are now requiring 5 million cover if you take say a model boat or car into a public place.
 
So all those kids with hi tech Christmas presents are most probably breaking the law by taking them out in the street without the correct insurance cover.

You might say it is stupid, but could you afford to pay out a massive insurance claim if someone tripped over your kid's model car and hurt themselves. That is just the way things are at this time.
Lawyer Leech is on the lookout, and wringing his hands in great anticipation of things to come.


Bogs

[Raggle]

So we live in a blame culture  -  whose fault is that?

Ray

[Darren]

Well it's not mine 

[ozzie46]

  I have always lived by the rule that if "I" go onto some one else's property it was my responsibility to look out for my own safety. I know that is not the law but it should be. If I don't want to take the responsibility then I need to stay away. We seem to live in a society that , I'm now finding out seems to be world wide, wants to put the responsibility for our own welfare on someone else's shoulders and not our own where it should be. I think it is a very sad state of affairs. Life is a series of risks manup and take it or wimp out and crawl away. Well thats my thoughts anyway for whatever their worth. Probably not much.

  Ron

[CrewCab]

Life is a series of risks manup and take it or wimp out and crawl away.

Your preaching to the converted here Ron  I think to a man we all agree, changing legislation is the problem ..............

as a matter of interest I was told Australia had nipped both this and the "no win no fee" culture in the bud once it started to emerge over there, can any of our upside down members confirm or deny that .............. just interested, it's not going to change anything here is it 

CC

[John Hill]

as a matter of interest I was told Australia had nipped both this and the "no win no fee" culture in the bud once it started to emerge over there, can any of our upside down members confirm or deny that .............. just interested, it's not going to change anything here is it ......

I do not know about Australia but NZ put a stop to that decades ago by establishing a national 'Accident Compensation Commision' which everyone is levied to pay for at a rate depending upon occupation.  Thinks like motor registration also include an ACC levy.  So if you a snooping around my shop and get part of your anatomy wound up in my feed screw that is an 'accident' and you will be compensated and treatment paid for accordingly including a permanent income compensation if the injury renders you unable to work for the rest of your life,  if you do not survive the experience there is a sum to pay for a box to put your carcase in.  No lawyers involved.  It also covers such things as physio therapy for sports injuries.

Yea, yea,  I know, socialism but it does leave the lawyers in the cold so I like it!

[tinkerer]

Anything that takes lawyers and insurance robbers out of the equation, I am for.

[ieezitin]

You know I agree with Bogs!. An irony is that I was a little Bugger while I was young and loved stealing cars, not Bangers I loved luxury cars, BMW, Mercs, Land Rovers all that!. I was before the Judge and he said quote(  you have two choices boot camp  or  Borstall” or you go to trade school. ) then he tacked on the fact that if I did not complete my apprenticeship my prison term would be enacted.
I settled for the trade,  then I settled down. Discipline is key and harmony to society. Nothing wrong with waking up little tyrants. Discipline does not create hurt! It installs values.

[shred]

I have a few friends in the teaching profession-- up through 16 year olds.  Without exception they say the single factor that influences how a kid does is parental (and grand-parental) involvement.  That's us.  With that, they do great, without, they're holy terrors.  What frightens the teachers is over the past 10-20 years they've seen a major decline in parental involvement, with the parents expecting the school to educate, discipline and take full care of the kids while they go off and entertain themselves as if they never had kids.

That "somebody else should take care of them because I'm too busy with myself" attitude drives a lot of the regulation we now have to put up with.  Before if a kid that should know better did something stupid, we'd blame the kid.  Now we blame (and sue) the system for not preventing the poor dear from 'expressing himself'.  So no lathes for you; you might stick your finger in the chuck and hurt yourself and your parents might sue because we didn't prevent you from doing something you knew was stupid or dangerous.