Author Topic: Help with New Machines  (Read 32769 times)

Offline djh82uk

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Help with New Machines
« on: November 23, 2009, 10:08:08 PM »
Hey Guys

At the moment I have a CNC Taig Mill and a Manual Sieg C3 Lathe.

I am looking at getting a larger Mill & Lathe to keep as manual.  I am looking at spending Circa £1k on each, I obviously want the biggest machine I can get with the most features.  I did consider a larger older machine but I have the problem of it costing me if i pick one in bad condition, and also getting it home etc

I have been looking at these lathes:
http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Lathes.html


And these Mills:
http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/Milling_Machines.html
I have also been looking at the Sieg Super X3


Any thoughts/Ideas/Other Machines?

Thanks

DJH

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 01:10:44 AM »
Hi DJH

I got a Siege Supper X3 from Axminster early this year and love it, the RDG machine are clones of similar machines you can get from Chesters and Warco and Arc euro so shop around for best deals these companies have got some good offers on at the moment Chester have quite a few ex demo machine on sale, so try them.

Hope this helps

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2009, 07:45:46 PM »
Yeh I do like the look of the largest of the RDG machines, but the Sieg Super X3 has a tapping function i believe?

But also a smaller working area :(


Also what do people think of the 280V lathe from RDG?

DJH

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2009, 02:40:57 AM »

Sieg Super X3 has a tapping function i believe?

DJH

Yes I've used it quite a bit its quite easy to use, but I've not used it for anything smaller than M4, I hate the idea of breaking a tap in something thats just taken me 3 days to make and scrapping it  :bang:.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline raynerd

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2009, 04:44:11 AM »
djh82uk - Alan has them all on display on the shop floor in RDG and I`m sure he would be happy to show you them running. It is worth a trip down anyway if you can get there but obviously I don`t know where your coming from.

Chris

Offline NickG

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2009, 06:51:19 AM »

Also what do people think of the 280V lathe from RDG?


Sounds like a funny power supply to me - I would leave well along and get a 240V one :lol: Sorry

I have a mill the same as the chester century (http://www.chesteruk.net/store/century_vs_mill.htm) which has the same 1.1kw motor as the lathe you are looking at and the top RDG mills. I am very impressed with the torque of the motor, even right down to a few rpm I cant stop the spindle with my hand.

I prefer Stews Super X3, it looks more rigid and can move the head up and down from a hand wheel on the front not right at the top like mine. It might have slightly less cross travel though, also, I got mine for £600 at the time I think from amadeal which has similar machines.

Nick

ps, I like the C4 lathes as they have the powerful motor and power cross feed which I have really enjoyed since I got my harrison. Not sure if that's enough of a step up in size for you. It think they have pretty good capacity and are quite heavy whilst not being too bulky. Depends how much you want between centres I guess.

Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2009, 07:11:02 AM »
Yeh I will have to see where RDG are based and maybe have a look, I am on 24/7 callout until the new year so can't venture too far :(

I did look at the C4, but it does not seem that much bigger than the C3, also I really want one with a gearbox rather than changegears.

Yeh the amadeal lathes seem to be the same as the RDG ones, RDG while a little more expensive, do stock the one with DRO which I quite like (My C3 is dro also, no handwheel readouts so it is what I am used to)

DJH

bogstandard

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2009, 07:30:43 AM »
Once you make the jump to a gearboxed lathe, they do tend to go up in price and size.

Having only just been experimenting with threadcutting on my gearboxed lathe, if you want threading accuracy, then you really need to get one that has the larger 127 conversion gear rather than a 63 or 64 one. The 127 will give you spot on imperial threads, whereas the 63/64 conversion only gives an approximation.

That will almost guarantee that you will be looking at the larger size range of lathes, as they can't squeeze the 127 gear in the smaller machines.



Bogs



Offline NickG

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2009, 07:57:33 AM »
There used to be a 9x20 which had a gear box although they didn't have that many feeds and a guy I knew said the slowest wasn't slow enough. Have you considered a 2nd hand machine or are you specifically wanting a new one?

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2009, 09:18:45 AM »
Ahh I thought the 280V on RDG had a gearbox?

If you look at the picture it has in addition to the variable speed dial etc, a set of dials for what I presumed were gears.  I may well be wrong tho

DJH

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2009, 09:25:58 AM »
Below is a link to the image of the machine

http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/44102.jpg

Offline jim

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2009, 11:05:37 AM »
i've had a c4 for a couple of years, just bought a c3, the c4 really is a lot better machine (got the c3 for doing a repetative job)

as for milloing machines i've got a Weiss (same as chesters champion 20v) not a bad machine
if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline John Rudd

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2009, 11:22:10 AM »
There used to be a 9x20 which had a gear box although they didn't have that many feeds and a guy I knew said the slowest wasn't slow enough. Have you considered a 2nd hand machine or are you specifically wanting a new one?

Nick

I have the 9*20...Very please with it....It sort of fits betweeen the DB7, DB8 and DB10 and the larger lathes having a swing of 9 inchees over a 20 in bed....

I converted mine to variable speed and have never looked back...I actualy managed to cut an M39 *4 thread on mine using the change wheels supplied although I had to hand crank the spindle.....But hey ....How often do you want to turn something that big?


A pleased 9*20 user from Hull  :)
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Location:  Backworth Newcastle

Skype: chippiejnr

Offline NickG

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2009, 11:50:37 AM »
John,

I should have mentioned that the guy was pleased with it! In fact he's just spent a fortune on a nearly new myford and is far from pleased with that! When you consider you can get a 9x20 all tooled up for about £600 it looks a bargain, nearly got one myself. The guy I know made all sorts on it including a 5" gauge sweet pea and a 7 1/4" holmside loco and his work was superb.

He did some modification to give some slower feeds, a bigger change wheel but it meant modifying the door a bit I think. The slowest spindle speed is a bit high but it is on many modern machines.

DJH, The 280v looks like it might have a few different feeds selectable buy those dials but I doubt it'd give the full range. Looks like it has a power cross feed too though so looks good with that digi read out.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2009, 11:57:16 AM »
I've had the warco WM280 VF for just over a year nowe and am very happy with it, while the build quality is not upto what my prevoius Emco was the work that comes of the Warco is very good.

Not all of the 280's have the power cross feed, I would not be without it. the Warco also has a bigger MT3 tailstock spindle.

Not sure about the RDG but the Amadeal and Engineers Toolroom versions DO NOT include 4-jaw, faceplate, steadies etc

The lathes have a two speed spindle arrangement which gives you a range of something like 50-950 and 100-2000 so the variable is not over the full speced range at the turn of a dial.

The three knobs at the front from left to right are

Screwcutting ratios are done by changine gears on the banjo

Fwd, neutral, rev of the drive shaft for the longditudinal/cross feed
3 way speed selector for feed rates (geared)
lead screw for screwcutting / feed screw selector

Jason
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 11:59:53 AM by Jasonb »

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2009, 06:48:34 PM »
Heh, you guys are really messing with my head :P

I thought I was all set, but now very much interested in the C4 and Super X3, not a huge amount bigger than my existing machines, but sturdier, more powerful and slightly larger working envelope.

Also not too bad prices, I was suprised how good the C4 is judging by the reviews, should be a definate upgrade from the C3.  Which gave me a brain wave which I have posted in the neat ideas section

Im useless at buying machine tools

DJH

Offline Darren

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2009, 06:51:20 PM »
Well I wouldn't buy any of those suggested so far .....  :lol: :lol:

But that's just me, no reflection on your choices as I'm sure they are fine  :thumbup:
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Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2009, 06:59:18 PM »
Hi Darren, what would your choices be if you had £1k to spend on each?

Im only against used machines because i have no idea what I would be buying, or what condition it was in.  Also I don't really have any method of collecting larger machines so going chinese may be my only option, but am definatley open to opinions.

Thanks

DJH

Offline Darren

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2009, 09:41:11 PM »
OK I've put myself on the spot there haven't I?

Firstly let me say that I'm not a machinist by any stretch of the imagination. Even though I've had various lathes for over 20yrs there are others here that are far better qualified than myself to give guidance. Another point I would like to make is that any choices you make has to be yours and yours alone.

I believe that at the lower end of the budget you can get a lot more machine for your money in the second hand market.
The main downside is obviously that in that area you will not get a new machine so some wear must be accepted. Vigilance is required in respect of how warn or what may need fixing or replacing.

But, it's my personal view that things may not be a dangerous as it first appears. It just depends on your viewpoint.

Lets say you do manage to secure your dream and it turns out to be a mistake. The machine is junk  :doh:

You have two options, first is to re-sell and you'll most likely recover what you have spent if you took your time and bought wisely.
You may even make a bonus.

This is because second hand items have a similar value at the time you bought and when you later wish to sell. Something that will never happen if you buy new.
Your second option would be to part the machine out and you would probably make a profit on the sum of parts.

For some strange reason parts are often worth more than the whole.

Anyway, I've yet to buy a second hand lathe that was junk so have never needed to worry about it.
My first mill was junk, but my second and third were good value. Actually my second paid for my third with cash to spare.

My current mill is a Beaver, bit like a Bridgeport.

I'm about to take delivery on a new lathe and I'm afraid you'll have to wait to see what I decided on in the end. I spent about a year searching and deciding on what I wanted this time.

My personal choices were, CVA, Smart and Brown or if I was in the US it would have probably been a Monarc 10ee. Though there are others of course. Just stay away from machine shop lathes and look more closely at toolroom lathes. The former were bought for mass production machining and the latter were very much more expensive new and better made, so were generally bought new for development work.
Funny thing is, most toolroom lathes now fetch much less value of production lathes second hand  :scratch: Sounds odd but often true.

One of the other big bonuses with second hand is that they often come with expensive extra tooling. Something you often have to add to a new lathe.

Some people buy new from lands far away and certainly this can be a good choice for many. Their reasons are varied, but probably the main reason is time. Most people have jobs, I don't, giving me time to search a deal out but less funds to play with.

Each person will have their own set of criteria to work with.

But you sure do get a lot of iron in the second hand market these days ... nobody wants them, except us and we are only saving them from the scrap man.
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline cedge

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2009, 10:35:16 PM »
Bogster...
Just for general information purposes..... My C4 came with a 127 gear. Huge darned thing.... surprised me when I was unpacking the parts and pieces. So far I've had total satisfaction from mine. Considering my history of making mods to the little C3, I'm still amazed that I've changed nothing on the C4, except adding an independent lead screw drive.

The only thing I "might" wish to change on the whole machine would be the minimum RPM of 100. I got spoiled by the 20 RPM's I managed to tweak out of the C3. It was handy at times. This same wish could be applied to the SX3 mill. I'd really like to have it down to at least 50 rpm at times. Anyone know a hack for achieving this?

Steve

bogstandard

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2009, 11:23:52 PM »
Steve,

I wasn't trying to infer that a larger machine should be purchased. Just that it is preferable to get a machine with the 127 gear, purely because of the true thread conversion.

In fact you have dumbstruck me yet again, with the C4 having the large gear. Every time you tell me something new about it, it doesn't really surprise me why everyone is raving over it.

With regards to how slow it will run. My Atlas, you could count the low speed with your fingers for RPM, and I thought the 65 RPM on my machine was too high for screwcutting. But now having used it a few times, I am actually looking to take it one step up on speed. I think it has a lot to do with what you get used to. On the other hand, I do have a very good foot brake that stops the machine dead, no matter what speed it is at, so I don't have to worry about run on when working in tight spaces.


John

Offline cedge

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2009, 11:47:27 PM »
Bogs...
I know you weren't pushing for larger iron. Thus the general information comment I used to begin the post.

All I can say is that both machines have fitted my limited budget and space restrictions without compromising the quality of my output.  Heck... I can't even say that about "Her Indoors" and she's been an excellent investment...LOL. Add in the Sino made DRO system and my 2007 Ford Expedition and I've just listed my most satisfactory purchases of recent times.

Machines are like computers.... you buy all you can swing, knowing you'll want bigger and better down the road. Thank the gods these machines are not Vista powered.

Steve

Offline NickG

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2009, 03:55:46 AM »
DJH,

Having considered all the new stuff on the market I plumbed for a Harrison L5 in the end and I am so glad I did. It came from a school, had little use over considering it's 45 years old but is in my opinion far superior quality to the chinese stuff for that sort of budget. It's a heavy machine, so delivery was an issue, there was also the issue of converting from 3 phase to single. This can be done with an invertor or swapping the motor - both easy, I went for the motor route because I thought it was cheaper, but I recently found some invertors that would have cost roughly the same so probably would have gone that route. Including the cost of the new motor mine cost £750, but that's with 3+4 jaw, tail stock chuck, revolving centre, travelling steady. It has a full screw cutting gear box - all feeds and speeds selected by levers and knobs. Geared head (down to 34 rpm), power cross feed. It has a seperate feed shaft and lead screw so you can get really really slow feeds for a good finish. The main thing is, it's so well made and rigid.

So I'd have to agree with Darren on this one. Like he said, the tool room lathes tend to go for even less money, I just didn't happen to find one at the time. A nice colchester bantam or chipmaster went on ebay a couple of weeks ago for about £450.

I considered the C4 and the 9x20 before I got mine, but the problem I have with the C4 is, when I looked, chester were selling them for £625 - now they are nearer a grand! The only other thing is the 100rpm slowest speed. The 280V sounds good, and has a couple of selectable feed rates, no screwcutting gearbox but to be honest, I don't often screw cut, just a nice to have.

I think you were right in the first place about buying the biggest you can afford / accomodate!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Darren

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2009, 05:54:03 AM »
It's almost here  :)
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline NickG

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2009, 07:05:29 AM »
Darren, is the new lathe really new?! Today? Or are you not letting anything out of the bag  :poke: :poke:

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)