Author Topic: Help with New Machines  (Read 32780 times)

Offline djh82uk

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Help with New Machines
« on: November 23, 2009, 10:08:08 PM »
Hey Guys

At the moment I have a CNC Taig Mill and a Manual Sieg C3 Lathe.

I am looking at getting a larger Mill & Lathe to keep as manual.  I am looking at spending Circa £1k on each, I obviously want the biggest machine I can get with the most features.  I did consider a larger older machine but I have the problem of it costing me if i pick one in bad condition, and also getting it home etc

I have been looking at these lathes:
http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Lathes.html


And these Mills:
http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/Milling_Machines.html
I have also been looking at the Sieg Super X3


Any thoughts/Ideas/Other Machines?

Thanks

DJH

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 01:10:44 AM »
Hi DJH

I got a Siege Supper X3 from Axminster early this year and love it, the RDG machine are clones of similar machines you can get from Chesters and Warco and Arc euro so shop around for best deals these companies have got some good offers on at the moment Chester have quite a few ex demo machine on sale, so try them.

Hope this helps

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2009, 07:45:46 PM »
Yeh I do like the look of the largest of the RDG machines, but the Sieg Super X3 has a tapping function i believe?

But also a smaller working area :(


Also what do people think of the 280V lathe from RDG?

DJH

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2009, 02:40:57 AM »

Sieg Super X3 has a tapping function i believe?

DJH

Yes I've used it quite a bit its quite easy to use, but I've not used it for anything smaller than M4, I hate the idea of breaking a tap in something thats just taken me 3 days to make and scrapping it  :bang:.

Stew
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2009, 04:44:11 AM »
djh82uk - Alan has them all on display on the shop floor in RDG and I`m sure he would be happy to show you them running. It is worth a trip down anyway if you can get there but obviously I don`t know where your coming from.

Chris

Offline NickG

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2009, 06:51:19 AM »

Also what do people think of the 280V lathe from RDG?


Sounds like a funny power supply to me - I would leave well along and get a 240V one :lol: Sorry

I have a mill the same as the chester century (http://www.chesteruk.net/store/century_vs_mill.htm) which has the same 1.1kw motor as the lathe you are looking at and the top RDG mills. I am very impressed with the torque of the motor, even right down to a few rpm I cant stop the spindle with my hand.

I prefer Stews Super X3, it looks more rigid and can move the head up and down from a hand wheel on the front not right at the top like mine. It might have slightly less cross travel though, also, I got mine for £600 at the time I think from amadeal which has similar machines.

Nick

ps, I like the C4 lathes as they have the powerful motor and power cross feed which I have really enjoyed since I got my harrison. Not sure if that's enough of a step up in size for you. It think they have pretty good capacity and are quite heavy whilst not being too bulky. Depends how much you want between centres I guess.

Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2009, 07:11:02 AM »
Yeh I will have to see where RDG are based and maybe have a look, I am on 24/7 callout until the new year so can't venture too far :(

I did look at the C4, but it does not seem that much bigger than the C3, also I really want one with a gearbox rather than changegears.

Yeh the amadeal lathes seem to be the same as the RDG ones, RDG while a little more expensive, do stock the one with DRO which I quite like (My C3 is dro also, no handwheel readouts so it is what I am used to)

DJH

bogstandard

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2009, 07:30:43 AM »
Once you make the jump to a gearboxed lathe, they do tend to go up in price and size.

Having only just been experimenting with threadcutting on my gearboxed lathe, if you want threading accuracy, then you really need to get one that has the larger 127 conversion gear rather than a 63 or 64 one. The 127 will give you spot on imperial threads, whereas the 63/64 conversion only gives an approximation.

That will almost guarantee that you will be looking at the larger size range of lathes, as they can't squeeze the 127 gear in the smaller machines.



Bogs



Offline NickG

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2009, 07:57:33 AM »
There used to be a 9x20 which had a gear box although they didn't have that many feeds and a guy I knew said the slowest wasn't slow enough. Have you considered a 2nd hand machine or are you specifically wanting a new one?

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2009, 09:18:45 AM »
Ahh I thought the 280V on RDG had a gearbox?

If you look at the picture it has in addition to the variable speed dial etc, a set of dials for what I presumed were gears.  I may well be wrong tho

DJH

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2009, 09:25:58 AM »
Below is a link to the image of the machine

http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/44102.jpg

Offline jim

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2009, 11:05:37 AM »
i've had a c4 for a couple of years, just bought a c3, the c4 really is a lot better machine (got the c3 for doing a repetative job)

as for milloing machines i've got a Weiss (same as chesters champion 20v) not a bad machine
if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline John Rudd

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2009, 11:22:10 AM »
There used to be a 9x20 which had a gear box although they didn't have that many feeds and a guy I knew said the slowest wasn't slow enough. Have you considered a 2nd hand machine or are you specifically wanting a new one?

Nick

I have the 9*20...Very please with it....It sort of fits betweeen the DB7, DB8 and DB10 and the larger lathes having a swing of 9 inchees over a 20 in bed....

I converted mine to variable speed and have never looked back...I actualy managed to cut an M39 *4 thread on mine using the change wheels supplied although I had to hand crank the spindle.....But hey ....How often do you want to turn something that big?


A pleased 9*20 user from Hull  :)
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Location:  Backworth Newcastle

Skype: chippiejnr

Offline NickG

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2009, 11:50:37 AM »
John,

I should have mentioned that the guy was pleased with it! In fact he's just spent a fortune on a nearly new myford and is far from pleased with that! When you consider you can get a 9x20 all tooled up for about £600 it looks a bargain, nearly got one myself. The guy I know made all sorts on it including a 5" gauge sweet pea and a 7 1/4" holmside loco and his work was superb.

He did some modification to give some slower feeds, a bigger change wheel but it meant modifying the door a bit I think. The slowest spindle speed is a bit high but it is on many modern machines.

DJH, The 280v looks like it might have a few different feeds selectable buy those dials but I doubt it'd give the full range. Looks like it has a power cross feed too though so looks good with that digi read out.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2009, 11:57:16 AM »
I've had the warco WM280 VF for just over a year nowe and am very happy with it, while the build quality is not upto what my prevoius Emco was the work that comes of the Warco is very good.

Not all of the 280's have the power cross feed, I would not be without it. the Warco also has a bigger MT3 tailstock spindle.

Not sure about the RDG but the Amadeal and Engineers Toolroom versions DO NOT include 4-jaw, faceplate, steadies etc

The lathes have a two speed spindle arrangement which gives you a range of something like 50-950 and 100-2000 so the variable is not over the full speced range at the turn of a dial.

The three knobs at the front from left to right are

Screwcutting ratios are done by changine gears on the banjo

Fwd, neutral, rev of the drive shaft for the longditudinal/cross feed
3 way speed selector for feed rates (geared)
lead screw for screwcutting / feed screw selector

Jason
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 11:59:53 AM by Jasonb »

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2009, 06:48:34 PM »
Heh, you guys are really messing with my head :P

I thought I was all set, but now very much interested in the C4 and Super X3, not a huge amount bigger than my existing machines, but sturdier, more powerful and slightly larger working envelope.

Also not too bad prices, I was suprised how good the C4 is judging by the reviews, should be a definate upgrade from the C3.  Which gave me a brain wave which I have posted in the neat ideas section

Im useless at buying machine tools

DJH

Offline Darren

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2009, 06:51:20 PM »
Well I wouldn't buy any of those suggested so far .....  :lol: :lol:

But that's just me, no reflection on your choices as I'm sure they are fine  :thumbup:
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Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2009, 06:59:18 PM »
Hi Darren, what would your choices be if you had £1k to spend on each?

Im only against used machines because i have no idea what I would be buying, or what condition it was in.  Also I don't really have any method of collecting larger machines so going chinese may be my only option, but am definatley open to opinions.

Thanks

DJH

Offline Darren

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2009, 09:41:11 PM »
OK I've put myself on the spot there haven't I?

Firstly let me say that I'm not a machinist by any stretch of the imagination. Even though I've had various lathes for over 20yrs there are others here that are far better qualified than myself to give guidance. Another point I would like to make is that any choices you make has to be yours and yours alone.

I believe that at the lower end of the budget you can get a lot more machine for your money in the second hand market.
The main downside is obviously that in that area you will not get a new machine so some wear must be accepted. Vigilance is required in respect of how warn or what may need fixing or replacing.

But, it's my personal view that things may not be a dangerous as it first appears. It just depends on your viewpoint.

Lets say you do manage to secure your dream and it turns out to be a mistake. The machine is junk  :doh:

You have two options, first is to re-sell and you'll most likely recover what you have spent if you took your time and bought wisely.
You may even make a bonus.

This is because second hand items have a similar value at the time you bought and when you later wish to sell. Something that will never happen if you buy new.
Your second option would be to part the machine out and you would probably make a profit on the sum of parts.

For some strange reason parts are often worth more than the whole.

Anyway, I've yet to buy a second hand lathe that was junk so have never needed to worry about it.
My first mill was junk, but my second and third were good value. Actually my second paid for my third with cash to spare.

My current mill is a Beaver, bit like a Bridgeport.

I'm about to take delivery on a new lathe and I'm afraid you'll have to wait to see what I decided on in the end. I spent about a year searching and deciding on what I wanted this time.

My personal choices were, CVA, Smart and Brown or if I was in the US it would have probably been a Monarc 10ee. Though there are others of course. Just stay away from machine shop lathes and look more closely at toolroom lathes. The former were bought for mass production machining and the latter were very much more expensive new and better made, so were generally bought new for development work.
Funny thing is, most toolroom lathes now fetch much less value of production lathes second hand  :scratch: Sounds odd but often true.

One of the other big bonuses with second hand is that they often come with expensive extra tooling. Something you often have to add to a new lathe.

Some people buy new from lands far away and certainly this can be a good choice for many. Their reasons are varied, but probably the main reason is time. Most people have jobs, I don't, giving me time to search a deal out but less funds to play with.

Each person will have their own set of criteria to work with.

But you sure do get a lot of iron in the second hand market these days ... nobody wants them, except us and we are only saving them from the scrap man.
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline cedge

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2009, 10:35:16 PM »
Bogster...
Just for general information purposes..... My C4 came with a 127 gear. Huge darned thing.... surprised me when I was unpacking the parts and pieces. So far I've had total satisfaction from mine. Considering my history of making mods to the little C3, I'm still amazed that I've changed nothing on the C4, except adding an independent lead screw drive.

The only thing I "might" wish to change on the whole machine would be the minimum RPM of 100. I got spoiled by the 20 RPM's I managed to tweak out of the C3. It was handy at times. This same wish could be applied to the SX3 mill. I'd really like to have it down to at least 50 rpm at times. Anyone know a hack for achieving this?

Steve

bogstandard

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2009, 11:23:52 PM »
Steve,

I wasn't trying to infer that a larger machine should be purchased. Just that it is preferable to get a machine with the 127 gear, purely because of the true thread conversion.

In fact you have dumbstruck me yet again, with the C4 having the large gear. Every time you tell me something new about it, it doesn't really surprise me why everyone is raving over it.

With regards to how slow it will run. My Atlas, you could count the low speed with your fingers for RPM, and I thought the 65 RPM on my machine was too high for screwcutting. But now having used it a few times, I am actually looking to take it one step up on speed. I think it has a lot to do with what you get used to. On the other hand, I do have a very good foot brake that stops the machine dead, no matter what speed it is at, so I don't have to worry about run on when working in tight spaces.


John

Offline cedge

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2009, 11:47:27 PM »
Bogs...
I know you weren't pushing for larger iron. Thus the general information comment I used to begin the post.

All I can say is that both machines have fitted my limited budget and space restrictions without compromising the quality of my output.  Heck... I can't even say that about "Her Indoors" and she's been an excellent investment...LOL. Add in the Sino made DRO system and my 2007 Ford Expedition and I've just listed my most satisfactory purchases of recent times.

Machines are like computers.... you buy all you can swing, knowing you'll want bigger and better down the road. Thank the gods these machines are not Vista powered.

Steve

Offline NickG

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2009, 03:55:46 AM »
DJH,

Having considered all the new stuff on the market I plumbed for a Harrison L5 in the end and I am so glad I did. It came from a school, had little use over considering it's 45 years old but is in my opinion far superior quality to the chinese stuff for that sort of budget. It's a heavy machine, so delivery was an issue, there was also the issue of converting from 3 phase to single. This can be done with an invertor or swapping the motor - both easy, I went for the motor route because I thought it was cheaper, but I recently found some invertors that would have cost roughly the same so probably would have gone that route. Including the cost of the new motor mine cost £750, but that's with 3+4 jaw, tail stock chuck, revolving centre, travelling steady. It has a full screw cutting gear box - all feeds and speeds selected by levers and knobs. Geared head (down to 34 rpm), power cross feed. It has a seperate feed shaft and lead screw so you can get really really slow feeds for a good finish. The main thing is, it's so well made and rigid.

So I'd have to agree with Darren on this one. Like he said, the tool room lathes tend to go for even less money, I just didn't happen to find one at the time. A nice colchester bantam or chipmaster went on ebay a couple of weeks ago for about £450.

I considered the C4 and the 9x20 before I got mine, but the problem I have with the C4 is, when I looked, chester were selling them for £625 - now they are nearer a grand! The only other thing is the 100rpm slowest speed. The 280V sounds good, and has a couple of selectable feed rates, no screwcutting gearbox but to be honest, I don't often screw cut, just a nice to have.

I think you were right in the first place about buying the biggest you can afford / accomodate!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Darren

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2009, 05:54:03 AM »
It's almost here  :)
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline NickG

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2009, 07:05:29 AM »
Darren, is the new lathe really new?! Today? Or are you not letting anything out of the bag  :poke: :poke:

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2009, 07:42:24 AM »
It's one of these isn't it darren? :P

http://www.executool.co.za/catalog/images/unimat/classic1_lg2.jpg


I see what your saying about the older machines, im just worried about getting a bad one that needs a lot more money spent on it, I was looking here http://www.bedetools.com/page5.html as they have a bantam and an L5, but neither with the gearbox it seems.  I was looking at them as they deliver via pallet.

SO I guess I am back to where I started, an older machine, a C4 or something like the 280V, hmm

DJH

Offline NickG

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2009, 09:15:46 AM »
DJH,

I went there to get the spare gear for my Harrison and the guy was nice. Couldn't get away for talking though!  :lol:

All the machines he had for sale were in really good condition - he knows what he's looking for. Does a lot of school  / workshop clear outs etc.

He tends to get boxfords and viceroys too, sometimes with gearboxes for around the same price. They are same capacity as harrison minus a few inches between centres but a lot more compact. That is the place that sells the invertors at a good price too.

I have used a bantam when i was at University and it was a brilliant machine. It looks like it might have a couple of selectable feeds and that Harrison is a bit older model with the abc 3 speed gearbox.

The boxford BUD (private sale) is same as one I used at school, really nice machine, no gearbox but power cross feed. That looks immaculate and you could stick one of their invertors on as it is a star delta 3 phase motor. The denford is pretty much the same.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Darren

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2009, 10:35:08 AM »
It's one of these isn't it darren? :P

http://www.executool.co.za/catalog/images/unimat/classic1_lg2.jpg



DJH

Well it's here, long story to tell later but it's here. Just a little bigger than the one you linked.

It's grimy and dirty, but it looks to be good so far. I'm off now to plug it it .... I'll start a new post later, want to play now  :) :) :) :)
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2009, 10:40:39 AM »
He he,. I actually have that lathe that I linked, most useless thing I have ever tried to use.


Tho I have been looking at this for £525

http://www.bedetools.com/page3.html

DJH

Offline NickG

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2009, 01:29:38 PM »
DJH,

I would honestly steer clear of the ML7 when you can have the likes of a boxford bud for little more!

ML7 is overrated in my opinion but I know masses swear by them so ... each to his own I guess!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2009, 01:56:11 PM »
thats my problem, I don't have enough experience to have my own to be each too.

Is a 40 year old british lathe really going to be that much better, that much more accurate than a Large chinese equivalent?

And If I went for an older lathe, what would be reccomended?  AN L5? a bantam?

DJH

Offline Darren

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2009, 02:30:02 PM »
Most Colchesters have been used as production machines so will have seen a lot of work.
Ones from schools are the exception.

This is what came today, it's old, it looks dirty and rough. But It all seems to work and and seems to have no chunks missing out of the bed. In fact on initial inspection it appears to have done very little work.

I've just tried it with a steel bar that I could not get an acceptable finish with on any other of my lathes. It came out perfect, smooth as anything .... I am well chuffed, very well chuffed indeed.  :)

Ok it's on the larger side, not massive but you would need some room for such a thing. It has a couple of minor bits that need repairing, but they do not prevent it being used properly as it is. More cosmetic If I'm honest.

Biggest problem many would find with this one is that it is 3ph and it cannot be converted to single phase. But a RPC or VFD unit would get around this. I have a RPC as I have other 3ph machines. This really opens the doors for me.

All for less than your average Myford.....

« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 02:31:52 PM by Darren »
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Offline Darren

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2009, 02:34:05 PM »
Can anyone tell me what this toolholder is? It looks very well made but I only have two holders for it so will need to hunt down some more if I keep it.



Edit: seems like it's a Mulitifix .... :smart:
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 03:36:32 PM by Darren »
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2009, 03:51:45 PM »
Talking like this on a forum about what type of machinery you prefer has caused more arguments and bad feeling than anything else.

Machine choice has to be a very personal thing, as not all circumstances can be taken into account by the onlooker.

All we should do is give advice or known about warnings rather than trying to sway people one way or another.

A couple of years ago, if it wasn't old solid iron, I didn't want to know, but after my circumstances and shop space changed, I took the decision to buy new iron, and personally, I have never regretted it. In fact it has changed my own way of thinking about it. But I would never tell anyone that they should follow my way of thinking.

I would never say to anyone that the route they want to go down is wrong, but I would certainly tell them of the pitfalls if they wanted to take a bad route, and just hope they would listen to good reasoning.

I will make an example of the Myford that DJH is considering.

Myfords are much sought after, and command a higher than normal price, I don't know why, but they do. So why is the one advertised such a low price? When it should be double or even treble what it is advertised at.
I can only assume that the condition might be suspect and would require large amounts spending on it to get to back to tip top condition. The paintwork looks OK, but it isn't the paint that cuts the metal.

That is the trouble with old iron, if it is worn out, it can cost you a lot more than buying a new machine to put it right, but on the other hand, the condition could be great, and the chap selling it might above board and doesn't want much for it, even though he could get a lot more, but that scenario would need very careful scrutiny. Purchasing old or new can be full of pitfalls, so the onus has to fall on the purchaser to make up his own mind, and hope that the right decision is made.

Buying new doesn't appeal to some people, whereas buying old iron doesn't satisfy the needs of the others. So really it is a matter of standing on the sidelines and let the person make up his own mind, but give him/ her a bit of guidance if needed, and state the reasons why.

Bogs


Darren,

I didn't understand what you were on about when we talked about the toolpost, and I still don't, I have never seen one like it. But they must be available from somewhere.

John

Offline Darren

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2009, 04:06:59 PM »
John, I was asked for an opinion and gave it. Nothing more.

I do indeed have my preferences as others have theirs and each to his own. Otherwise it sure would be a boring world to live in  :)


The toolholde seems to be a Swiss made Multifix, these are copies (not found an original source as yet)

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_nkw=lathe+multifix&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=lathe+tool+holder+multifix&_osacat=0

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bogstandard

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2009, 04:22:52 PM »
Darren,

Don't take it personal, it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.

A few of us one here must have seen it when lathe or mill wars happen, not a pretty sight.

Old vs new iron is always a volatile subject, and it only takes one or two wrong words to get the sparks flying.


Those toolholders definitely look to be rather expensive. Maybe you could sell what you have, and invest the money in a more common version with cheaper or easier to make holders.


John

Offline Darren

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2009, 04:30:56 PM »
No worries John I didn't take it that way(you'd have to kick harder than that) and know how some people feel.
But if I am asked directly then it should be ok to respond. Besides it's good to have different views to consider when making a decision.

On the toolholder you might be right, they do seem expensive and that's just the copies. Still not found a genuine source (with prices) yet and I've been looking.

It is nice to use though, one lever does the job of two and it seems very secure.

Anyway the thread is wandering  :offtopic: and it's my fault again .......  :doh:

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Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2009, 05:14:34 PM »
I did not mean to potentially start a war, I am glad of the comments made so far as it forces me to think, agonize even.  At the moment 95% of my experience is which Chinese lathes, Ive used a Super ML7 for short while and it was ok, but nothing special.  The myford was never really on my list.

But I do still need help, let me break it down, and perhaps just give opinions based on what you think is more important.

New machines:

Sieg C4
Pros; Not ridiculously expensive (yes I know their price went up), Full Variable speed, Power cross feed, parts etc redily available, very good reviews
Cons; Not huge increase in size over my C3, Accuracy (tho judging by the reviews it may not be a big problem with these)

250V/280V (either from RDG or Amadeal)
Pros; Biggger, Full variable speed, DRO if willing to pay extra (£1700 :S )
cons; More expensive than the Sieg, less info out there, not found any reviews, I don't know about it's accuracy


Old machines:

Harrison L5
Pros; I like the look of this machine, does not seem difficult to get Gearbox etc
Cons; Size (getting it delivered and looking to move house in a year or 2), May have issues as not experienced enough to tell

Boxford:
Same as above




SOooooo, My biggest issues with old lathes are that I may have an issue getting it to my workshop, and it could be a pile of rubbish, Im not really seeing any downside to the chinese lathes here tho other than perceived lack of accuracy & that they generally have less mass.

I would love to have a big enough workshop for both, but I don't, I am leaning towards chinese, at least until we move (looking for somewhere with a little parcel of land (yay workshop!)).

But then I have the issue of wether the C4 is enough size wise.


bogstandard

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2009, 06:21:11 PM »
DJH,

I will let you into a little secret.

No matter which one you eventually go for, it will never ever be your perfect ideal machine.

Write down what you would like to have as features on your lathe in order of importance, say power cross feed, gearbox, variable speed, spindle bore, distance between centres etc.

Then get the ins and outs of each machine within your price and size range, and measure it against what you would like as the ideal. Select the one that ticks the most boxes.

I would have loved to get an even higher specced one than the one I eventually ended up with, but they just wouldn't have fitted in the space I had available, so I narrowed it down to two lathes that would fill the space, and chose the one that came the closest to my ideal, and I am happy with it. The missing ideal bits I have either made and fitted myself, or learned to live without them.

I found it took many months of comparing specifications before I eventually made my decision. Only then did I start to look for a salesman that would sell it to me cheaper than anyone else. If you go face to face and haggle correctly, 20% to 25% is a good discount to aim for, but anything is a bonus, even if it is just a few goodies thrown in. On my mill, they fitted nearly 1000 squids worth of extras and upgrades for nothing.

If you don't ask, you don't get. But make sure you have a big wad of cash in your pocket to back up your haggling, but don't expect discounts or freebies if using plastic.


Bogs

Offline NickG

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2009, 06:28:45 PM »
I think all our contributions are being of some use in helping DJH decide. There is no intention of machine wars, we're merely pointing out our own experiences so he can weigh up the pros and cons in his own mind. Having been down both routes in the price bracket DJH is looking at, the old machine has worked out the better than the new one for me that's all.

I don't think we should take things to heart too much in here, it is sort of the purpose of forums like this to have the odd debate as long as it's all valid. It wasn't long ago Chris and I went a bit off topic and started talking about our MGF's and got a slating! But from our experience of owning them we enjoyed them greatly and could recommend them to others as a great fun and nice to drive car at a good price, so you just have to agree to disagree sometimes with no bad feeling. It was the first car I bought when I got a job and it cost £11,000 - 15 times more than my lathe!

A couple of points on your last post DJH.

Another plus is that the new machines will have a warranty so you should have some come back if anything was wrong with them.

The C4 does get good reviews, the only slight issue I see is 100rpm being the slowest speed but as Steve said, depending on what you are doing it might not be an issue. It's really a bit fast for big cast iron loco wheels and the like but it's still do-able. Also, probably a bit fast for threading. I have just seen the new chester price for that and am quite shocked. It’s gone from £625 18 months ago to £1069! It is £896 from Axminster.

The 250V doesn't have power cross feed which isn't a major issue but now I’ve got a lathe with it, I wouldn’t do without it.

The 280V is pretty expensive but probably not a bad price for a new lathe. Did you realize it has 28” between centres though? That is big – Harrison is only 24”!

Here’s another new one to throw into the mix: http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axminster-BV30M-Engineering-Lathe-21668.htm

The Harrison is as you said big and heavy (over ½ a tonne I think!) but that also goes in its favour.

The boxford is actually a very compact machine, more compact and lighter than the Harrison but similar capacity. It has an underdrive motor unit apart from on very early models which helps keep it nice and slimline.
 
A quick couple of opinions on my milling machine from amadeal. It’s the same as the chester century. http://www.chesteruk.net/store/century_vs_mill.htm  It’s OK because it is designed on sound principals, quite heavy, big motor, taper roller bearings, tapered gib strips etc. But I couldn’t say it is well made. Having said that, I have used it straight out of the box and it’s pretty well set up. The guy who I bought mine with (we got two to get a better deal) has had a new head and table on his. The spindle had excessive play and the table was tapered. The guy was ok to deal with though and he reckons it’s sorted now.  I’d hate to think I’d paid £1049 for it though, I got it for £600.

Just don’t assume because you are buying a new bit of kit it will be set up satisfactorily and you can use it straight out of the box, because sometimes they aren’t. But you should be setting up any machine you get anyway. You could just as easily buy a new pile of rubbish, but at least then you could take it back and tell them!

When I am making a big purchase like this, I do exactly what bogs said below on a spreadsheet and give each feature an impotance weighting then look at what scores the highest. It usually works well!

There my 2p worth, hope some of this helps.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline cedge

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2009, 06:58:33 PM »

The hard part about any purchase like this is that most buyers have to take a leap of faith, having never personally seen the machine before the purchase. A novice buying a used machine takes an even larger such leap because he can often never be sure of the machine's condition until he's got it powered in his shop. It makes for a tough decision when your available funds are only so large. 

I'm not lucky enough to be the guy everyone hears about who found a mint Monarch EE in some old guy's garage with 1000 hours on the meter. In fact, my personal experience in searching for used machines was quite disappointing. Lots of clapped out Southbends, Myfords, a Monarch the owner couldn't run and several modified tool room machines with VFD's that were sledge hammered into fitting. I finally gave up on that trail after dropping in at Travers Tools and actually getting to play with the C4. When I saw that it met MY particular needs, I bought it and dragged it home, where it has performed every task I've asked of it with better performance than expected. That makes Cedge one very happy camper....(grin).

The 100 rpm is such a minor thing that I don't really count it as being a problem. I've turned stock out to 8 inches on the machine without tears. The independent lead screw mod gives me enough adjustment to avoid chatter, even out at the fringe of the bed swing limitations.

I'll never try to sell anyone on my personal choices, especially since mine are not likely to be based on the same needs the other guy has. I too try to avoid a repeat of the "Lathe Wars" by simply stating what the machine has going for or against it and leave it to the guy asking to make his own choices. Bottom line.... ask and I'll share my experience... ask me to pick your purchase and I'm gonna go silent. That choice has to be based on ones specific need as well as experience or the lack thereof.

Steve

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2009, 07:37:59 PM »
Thanks Guys I really appeciate it

I really do think I am going to go chinese at the moment, just because there is plenty of info on them, I have one at the moment that I have had some success in setting up etc, so now I need to go through everyone I can find and agonise over them :P

Ive been having a hard time at work (really hate it atm, tho doesn't everyone?) so think I deserve a treat.

I have a CNC mill, and of course it lets me do things a lot easier than manually a lot of the time, but it is not so much fun, I think that is why I never looked too much into cnc'ing the lathe as I just feel like a computer operator, my aim is to have 2 mills & 2 lathes, 1 of each manual, and one of each cnc'd, but I can see the manual machines getting used more.

I may un-cnc my mill for a bit as ive never actually used one manually, as I am also in the market for a larger mill, i think it would do me good to use it manually to see what annoys me about, what features I cannot do without etc, it only takes about an hour to switch between cnc & manual anyway. (actually impressed myself there with a good idea :) )

And then I can start thinking about what engine to make (looking for a very simple one to test the water)

But thank you, you have all helped a lot, another reminder why I use this forum.

Offline Darren

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2009, 07:56:03 PM »
DHJ, what is your name, we keep calling you DHJ and it seems a bit odd  :lol:
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Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2009, 07:58:49 PM »
Ha ha, my name is Daniel, but most people call me dan, I don't know why I do that

Offline AdeV

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2009, 08:16:47 PM »
FWIW, I went down the second hand route; I managed to score a reasonably priced Bridgeport, and a very keenly priced big old lathe. But, as you may have spotted elsewhere, neither machine is without issues (and both have significant wear). e.g. I managed to seize a bearing in the mill very early on; and I'm still struggling to get going with the lathe. However, for the money, I couldn't have got close to the same size & weight of machine if I'd bought new. And because I'm a tinkerer & not out to make any money from the machines, I can work around the wear & any idiosyncracies of each machine. Well, so long as I don't need a thread with more than 28tpi, that is!

Personally, I wouldn't go any other way; but then I have the space & the right kind of electricity to run big old kit (just not the skills). And I love messing around with "old world" equipment (Lister CS engines, the Ford Capri, a '69 Bedford bus, etc) - I think a lifetime of using & abusing computers has taught me that sometimes, the old ways were more fun.... and the old stuff seems to be more robust (but maybe it's just the fact there are survivors?).

BTW, I completely agree with your regarding CNC vs. manual. Although I know CNC stuff (especially mills) can do some amazing things, I just wanted to be able to stand in front of the machine & while away the hours, turning out a finely honed & shaped metal part.

Or just scrap, swarf & swearing, which seem to be the most common outputs :lol:

Cheers!
Ade.
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Location: Wallasey, Merseyside. A long way from anywhere.
Occasionally: Zhengzhou, China. An even longer way from anywhere...

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2009, 02:42:54 AM »
Quote
Super ML7 for short while

The ML7 and a Super 7 are two different machines, the ML7's usually sell for a lot less than a super7 and a super 7 plus will cost mare again.

Have a read up on the specs of the Myfords, harrisons and colchesters before you look at any as they vary so much. eg ther eare at least 4 different Bantums and two speed ranges of some of those.

Look at this site http://www.lathes.co.uk/myford/page19.html

Jason

Offline jim

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2009, 02:56:42 AM »
TMTT do a C4 for for £795 on ebay ( search for SIEG to find him). i've had three lathes and my mill off him.

if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline NickG

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2009, 03:48:06 AM »
When I was looking at buying a chinese lathe under £1000 I came to about the same conclusion - C4 - I like the fact that it has a powerful DC motor that can give decent torque at the low speeds with a rev counter so no messing around with belts. The power cross feed you will find an excellent addition too and decent capacity at a reasonable price. The spares and back up is growing too.

Another good choice is the 9x20 these can be had for around £600 - no vari speed or power cross feed but screw cutting feeds. I think I'd rather go for the C4 but £200 more - that could buy quite a few accessories.

http://www.chesteruk.net/store/db10g_lathe.htm this looks like it's on special offer. It's got a lot of accessories with it and 5" centre height 22" between centres so it's got good capacity.

That c4 on ebay pointed out by Jim looks a good buy.

I also like this warco BH600 http://www.warco.co.uk/BH600-900-Metalworking-Lathe-F74CE39059.aspx# I know it's a fair bit more but it looks the part.

Just a couple more thown into the mix.
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline jim

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2009, 09:38:39 AM »
heres the link to the C4 on ebayhttp://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SIEG-C4-METALWORKER-LATHE-WITH-VARIABLE-SPINDLE-SPEED_W0QQitemZ250530157680QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM?hash=item3a54c2d470


here is review from an american site http://www.mini-lathe.com/m4/C4/c4.htm

if i had the space i'd go for a Ward 2 or 3 capstan lathe, i served my apprenticeship on these. i've seen them on ebay from as low as a few hundred pounds.
if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline andyf

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    • The Warco WM180 Lathe - Modifications
Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2009, 10:28:40 AM »
After looking at the review of the Sieg C4, there's one minor quibble I would have with it. Apart from saying that a knob which looked like it would do it, but didn't, there's no mention of any way to reverse the leadscrew vis-a-vis the spindle. This is essential for cutting LH threads, and also useful for plain turning towards the tailstock under power feed. The picture of the gear train below doesn't show any tumbler reverse, either. But would probably be easy to rig up a mounting for an idler to do the trick, if it was ever found necessary. I did it on my Weiss lathe (the pic is of the C4, not of my machine).


Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2009, 12:21:50 PM »
Hiya

yeh I did look into that, you just have to move gear "A" to reverse the leadscrew.

DJH

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2010, 01:27:40 PM »
Hey Guys


Im still struggling with this., the lathe is sorted for now, I bought a Warco 918 from the classifieds on here for £300, needs new halfnuts but otherwise in great shape.  Now for the mill

I am stuck between the weiss mill sthat RDG stock
The Super X3
And the Warco VMC.

My reservations about the Weiss mills is that they are not overly cheap and it's difficult to find that much info on them

My reservations about the X3 is the working area, tho they are on offer for £895 with Arc at the moment.

My reservations with the Warco VMC is the lack of variable speed, but it does look like a nice beefy machine


My other issue is getting in situe, do you guys just use engine cranes?

I quite fancy a used shaper too , hmm

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2010, 01:43:50 PM »
I'm not keen on having to reach so far up & over a machine to alter the head height on the weiss

I have a standard X3 and am happy with that, the super only has 5mm less cross travel and 10mm less sideways than the VMC but does have a higher table to spindle distance which is probably more use.

160rpm would be a bit too fast a minimum speed for me and there is not much spindle to table room for such a large machine.

Jason

Offline CrewCab

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2010, 02:23:43 PM »
I have a Chester 626 which is their equivalent of the VMC, I waited a while to drop on a second hand one and eventually found one, I was hoping for a 3phase model so I could add an inverter (as I have on the Boxford) as that would give variable speed control, but not to be ........ but, I find it fine, it's not hard to change speeds and it's a beefy machine so I tend to stick it on the middle pulley and alter the depth of cut to suit a lot of the time  :thumbup:

CC

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2010, 03:46:32 PM »
Hiya

I have to agree with jason with regards the Z handle location on the weiss, that could be a real pain after a while.

CrewCab, how did you get the machine up on the stand, ive been trying to think how I can situate should I buy one


Thanks

DJH

Offline CrewCab

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2010, 04:36:27 PM »
CrewCab, how did you get the machine up on the stand,  

Well I have an engine crane and that was fine for lifting it in and out of the van, but the workshop is small and with limited access ....... the mill strips down easily into a few major components which can all be lifted fairly easily, with the exception of the main body ............ that's pretty heavy, ........ fortunately I have 2 sons that are both 6'-4" tall and built like brick outhouses, so I just stood back and watched  :coffee:



To be fair two reasonably fit blokes should have no problem lifting it all into place, a chain and scaffold bar would be useful btw.

CC   :beer:

Offline ksouers

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2010, 04:50:14 PM »
CC,
Where'd you hide the Boxford?

I thought it should be in this picture somewhere...
Kevin

Offline CrewCab

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2010, 05:03:18 PM »
CC,
Where'd you hide the Boxford?

I thought it should be in this picture somewhere...

It's just to the right a little Kevin, the size of my shop it can't be far away  :scratch:



Just behind the lifting appliances ...........   :coffee:



Sorry Dan, going off topic ..........   ::) .........   this is the heavy bit, but it could be stripped down quite a lot more fairly easily, we were able to cope with it on this occasion, Oh a pallet truck to get the bits into the workshop also made life much easier.

CC

Offline djh82uk

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Re: Help with New Machines
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2010, 07:15:46 PM »
Hiya

Thanks that confirms what I was thinking, So I would need the mill, a Crane lift & possibly a pallet truck, the extra equipment, may come in handy with moving about etc (and moving house in few years), but increases the initial outlay a fair bit.

Whereas I could get  away with no lifting equipment with the Super X 3?

At least I have narrowed it down to 2 machines, but now rather torn :(


Thanks

DJH