My slager 12x36 lathe

[Trion]

Hello guys. This is my first post on this forum, so it's sort of an introduction. But since I'll mostly be writing about ways to improve my lathe, I might just aswell start here.

Quick info on me I'm a machine engineer student in the beginning of my twenties and have absolutely no experience in machining. I have read a bit about turning, and recently tried a bit on the lathe. My other projects are a pair of Nissan Silvia's, and I hope to eventually be able to make some parts for them on the lathe.

Now over to the machine. It is my first lathe, and I have had her for a couple of months, but until recently never found anyone with a similar machine. After my new discoveries, this seems to be another Lantaine copy, only mine is form 1984. In other words it is the Grizzly, HF and Jet lathes older brother.

Spec:
3hp 220V engine
12x36"
Belt drive headstock
Coolant system

How it looked when i got it







And the accessories that came with it


As said, it is from 1984, but it has only had two owners, and the previous owner insisted on it not having been used more than 50 hours. I'm not too familiar with lathes and how they wear, to be able to tell if this is true. But from looking at it, it seems to have mostly rusted and collected dust. As a note, it has the "non-dividable" headstock belts, and judging by the work amount of replacing these i guess they are the oem pieces. - You would not believe my relief when i discovered these red "disconnectable" belts!
Also, the external jaws for the 3 jaw are still in their original bag with this thick chineese grease on them!



Sorry for the poor pictures, I still lack a bit of light around the machine




First I made a small tool board with the most necessary items


Then removed the top slide, to give it a good cleaning and lube


Soon afterwards the cross slide went aswell






Assembly




Next project was making it possible to get the machine properly level, so I jacked it up and put it on some wooden blocks. (For those of you familiar with nissans, that is a Silvia s13 upside down in the left of the picture )


Chucked up an old piston, and got the nice metal to the surface


Soon after a few pistons and some threaded bar was made into adjustable feet


I didn't get the lathe high enough to get a 22mm drill in, so i opted for the second best solution, to weld on some flat steel




Soon after, she was standing taller than ever, and the possiblity of getting her level is now a fact. Now i need a machinist level to adjust her properly. I have read the grizzly one is supposed to be pretty good, so I'll be buying that.


I don't like the plastic handwheel for the main travel, but bogstandard showed a nice way of making an aluminium handle in another thread regarding his mill.



When turning the pistons down, i discovered some runout in the chuck


So i pulled the chuck and measured the runout of the spindle. It was about 0,005mm (~0.0002") both radially and axially.


The accuracy of the spindle seemed good enough, so it had to be either the chuck or the face plate. Since both were full of old oil and some rust, i disassembled them for a proper cleaning. Here's the face plate




I monted the faceplate and measured the runout, and it was horrible. Think it was about 0,05mm (0,002"). I should probably have turned it down right there, but lacking proper turning tools, not having a saddle lock and not beeing sure that the headstock is in alignment with the bed, I decided to wait.


Instead, i disassembled the chuck




Then the batteries on the camera died..

Here are some pictures of it all assembled again


So I tried grinding my only hss tool, and after many tries, got a result which i was happy with


I also tried single point threading for the first time ever. Quite pleased with the result, considering never having done it before, and that the rod was extended about 15cm (4") from the chuck


Made some coarser threads closer to the chuck. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement though. For instance, i forgot to check if i had chosen the correct pitch to the diameter, so ofcourse i made the threads the wrong pitch and it was impossible to test them with a nut



When drilling i have noticed that the drill can wobble quite a bit. It almost seemed to be too much flex for a 13mm (0,5") drill, so I got suspicious about the tailstock, and started to measure.


When pusing upwards there was wuite a bit of movement on the dial indicator..


Here are the results of the measurement:
- Tailstock extended to minium, 20mm (0,79") there was 0,04mm (0,0016") play up/down
- Tailstock extended to maximum, 100mm (4") there was 0,15mm (0,006") play
- Measured on outer edge of drill chuck at 100mm extension, there was a whopping 0,5mm (0,02") play.

Something has to be done with the tailstock. I am thinking drilling out to a 20-30mm depth and inserting a bushing. But I'm not too thrilled about somehow mounting the upper part of the tailstock on a face plate and having it spin at a couple of 100rpm. If so, i think I'd have to get a boring head, mount that in the chuck, and bore it out. Opinions and suggestions are well appreciated.


When I'm first around finding things that need to be improved, I thoug I'd just aswell see how the headstock is aligned to the bed, so i chucked up a piece of brass (actually my only piece of brass ) and turned it on the slowest feed with my recently sharpened HSS tool.


Pulled out the micrometer and mesured along the rod


The results:
- Neares to the chuck Ø11,62mm (0,4575")
- 50mm (2") from the chuck Ø11,63mm (0,4579")
- 100mm (4") from the chuck Ø11,69mm (0,4602")

So I'm quite certain that the headstock is not paralell to the bed..

To do list:
- Buy proper tooling, some hss and some carbide. I have become a fan of TNMG inserts and will be ordering most of my tool holders to to suit the TNMG 33* inserts.
- Stiffen lathe feet
- Buy machine level and level the bed
- Get the headstock alligned to beds
- Turn face place, and possibly grind inside of jaws -will have to make tool post grinder first
- Sort out tailstock, possibly add a bushing. And ofcourse adjust to headstock
- Get a quick change tool post, thinking Phase II Wedge type, BXA (200)
- Make splash guard behind the lathe, to protect the wall, and to have a nice place for various tools
- Make a transparent cover to mount on the main slide, to prevent a mess when using coolant

[sbwhart]

Welcome aboard the cube  Trion.

That looks a very nice machine you've got there, and you seem to be doing a good job at getting it it tuned.

Look forward to seeing some good work you.

Have fun

Stew

[jim]

 

looking good

best use i've ever seen for old pistons

looking forward to more posts

[bogstandard]

Trion,

Looks like you are giving that machine a good dose of looking at, and you will find that things start to get a lot better and easier the more you play with it.

Even though you say your headstock is out of alignment, I could almost guarantee that it isn't.

The more you have sticking out of the chuck, especially a thin piece as you used, the more the material will flex away from the cutting tool. That is why you got a smaller reading nearer the chuck than the one further away. That is the reason you should support the free end of the metal by using a centre in the tailstock or a fixed or travelling steady.

Just take it carefully, and master one bit at a time, then after a short while, you will start to find your machining will rapidly become a lot better.


Bogs

[dsquire]

Trion

Welcome to MadModder.

What a great first post you have made. It looks like you have the situation well in hand and will have it all ship shape before long. I'll be along for the ride watching you lathe and shop develop. If you have any questions I am sure one of the members will be glad to try and help. 

Cheers 

Don

[Trion]

Thanks for the kind words gentlemen, I will keep you updated
Now I only have 3 more exams, before my christmas holidays begin. Then there will be several more updates and hopefully some new tools coming in aswell, as I'm really running at the bare minimum now. As a matter of fact, my only tools are a drill chuck for the tailstock and a pair of HSS turning tools, one internal one external. Oh, i almost forgot my precious cut-off tool, well actually, it's just a hack saw..

bogstandard: I was a bit uncertain if the extending length would matter that much with a sharp tool and very slow feed, but if you say so, I'll take your word for it. A centrepoint in the tailstock would probably do it some good, but unfortunately i dont have one. That is also coming in with my major tooling investment. But then there is the play in the tailstock. If it would be at the shortest extension (20mm) there would be 0,04mm play. Worst case scenario, that can result in the work moving 0,04mm from the tool, giving 0,08mm diameter increase. The increase in diameter from close to chuck, to end of bar was only 0,07mm, so in my mind the centerpoint would'nt really do any difference. -that is theoretically, i have no experience in how the actual effects are! 

Regarding my shopping, pricewise i have found grizzly to seem like an ok place to buy. I found another site listing the same tools, also describing what inserts they are made for, so that i can buy the cheap grizzly tool holders and fit proper inserts from either ebay or carbidedepot. Any reasons why I should not buy grizzly tooling, or suggestions for places with similar prices in europe?

Thanks!

[CrewCab]

Welcome Trion, good to hear about your exploits 

CC

[bogstandard]

Trion,

The figures you are finding are not the end of the world in the machining world, so wait until you have a bit more experience under your belt, and then see if it improves, as your skill improves.

As far as I know, the head on your lathe can be swung to correct a slightly out of alignment head, I think it is very similar to the setup on my lathe. It is also a fairly easy, but a very time consuming process, with component removal, adjust, rebuild, try, and if still not correct, start again. Once it is perfect, then the same sort of thing would need to be done to realign the tailstock to the new head setting.

Just take it steady it for the moment.

Bogs

[sbwhart]

Regarding my shopping, pricewise i have found grizzly to seem like an ok place to buy. I found another site listing the same tools, also describing what inserts they are made for, so that i can buy the cheap grizzly tool holders and fit proper inserts from either ebay or carbidedepot. Any reasons why I should not buy grizzly tooling, or suggestions for places with similar prices in europe?

Thanks!

Hi Trion

You could try these well tested suppliers in the UK

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/

http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/

http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/

http://www.chesteruk.net/

http://www.glostertooling.co.uk/

http://www.axminster.co.uk/

http://www.mscjlindustrial.co.uk/CGI/INPDFF?PMCTLG=00&PMPAGE=622&PMITEM=BFIFX-10700M

http://www.warco.co.uk/index.aspx

That should keep you occupied for some time 

Have fun

Stew

[Trion]

Thanks guys!

Bogstandard: I'm a bit of a perfectionist and really like everything to be as good as possible before i actually start spending time making important parts. But that alignment job is sounding like an awful lot of work. I will have to get a beefier rod and remeasure. Thanks for the advice!

Stew: Nice list! I have already gone through a few of the shops, so far none of them seem to be as cheap as grizzly, but hey, I guess you get what you pay for

[brucealmitey]

Hello everyone I have just purchased a 12X36 lathe and was looking at projects to make and noticed your slager lathe it is exactely like mine and it is a royal. Anyone out there know where I can find a manual.

[Trion]

Congratulations on the new lathe!

I have downloaded manuals from grizzly, they have a belt driven lathe but not exactly the same. http://grizzly.com/products/G9249
I think our lathes are originally a copy of a lathe brand called Lantaine, here's a link to some manuals on metalillness forum http://bbssystem.com/viewtopic.php?t=608

Hope this helps!
It would be fun to see some picures of you lathe, to compare if it's exactly the same. I have seen a very simliar Jet lathe, but handwheels and some other stuff were different.

Regards
Jon

[brucealmitey]

jon you guys are realy cool. I looked through the files and downloaded them to my computer they will be very helpfull.
Ill try to post some pics in the near future. thanks again. Bruce

[Trion]

Just glad to help

Yesterday I had my last exam before cristmas, so this means schools out until sometime january


I noticed that I hadn't posted pictures of all the places i had cleaned and lubed here, so here are some more.






If someone should be interrested, here are the charts on the lathe:


Made in July 1984


Threading the american way


And the right way


I think this is for use with the threading dial


My main slide is annoying me a bit though, it has graduations in 0,14mm. That's a bout as useless as you get it. DRO, here I come..




Yesterday I found myself a new best friend. He has a big water cuter, and happens to have A LOT of  "scrap" cuttings. So i paid him every krone (norwegian currency) I had in my wallet, about 40£ and loaded up the old passat with all the steel, stainless and alu i could find


My lathe is standing there, clueless of what is coming


After some sweat and blood, my lathe's new metal friends found their place


I organized it with the most usefull stuff on top of the coolant tank, and the more milling related or humongous bits beneath. On top of the coolant tank you have stainless to the left, then regular steel and aluminium to the right


To show you why I am so happy, this was my previous metal box..


I had never had stainless before, so i tried tuning it with my only external tool, which happens to be HSS. It actually went quite well!


But as with everything here in life, there is a catch. Since the pieces have been cut with a water cutter, each piece has a ~2mm deep it's outer radius which has to be turned away before the piece is usable..



Then I figured that since I now have so much nice round metal, though most is not very long, it would be a nice time to start thinking about a ball turner. The easiest would be to fit it instead of the toolpost, but as you see, there were some clearance issues..


So I removed the top slide and moved the cross slide until it was prettymuch under center


As you can see, the slide is still about 50% engaged in the dovetails, but worse, an opening into the acme screw is present. I hope the engagement length is still good enough to be able to use it in this position. The hole will be covered with a plate of some sort


Found myself a piece of stainless, thinking I'm going to make a good permanent tool holder that will last forever.. (in retrospect, i regret using stainless of this size, as it took ages to machine without dulling my HSS tool, and since I still haven't bought coolant, i had to use a ton of transmission oil to cool the bit on the first few cm of the facing cuts. If someone should be wondering about coolants, i can tell this much, transmission oil is the least smoking of engine oil and air compressor oil, but all of them are actually sh*t)


Not knowing of the coming problems, I dug out my UNUSED external chuck jaws. (those of you who actually read what I write, should be amazed considering the machines age )


Everything has a downside, and this time it was my conscience (yes, I had to look that up in a dictionary) not letting me use the new jaws before I had cleaned of the hard oil the china men put on before it was shipped, some 25 years ago..


Then it was just a matter of chucking the piece up and getting ready to turn. 6 regrinds and a dozen drive belt speed changes later, it began to look like something


Here is me trying some machining pictures with manual focus and manual light settings on a D50


End product as of yesterday evening. I hope to be able to continue tonight, just have to clean the apartement, make dinner and buy cristmas presents first

[dsquire]

Jon

Very impressive. I love all the detail shots of the lathe and your new collection of assorted metal. It looks like quite a score.
If you start building engines I see lots of flywheel material. Hope all your exams went well and that you will be able to relax and get lot of play time in the shop. I look forward to watching your ball turner take shape. 

Cheers 

Don

[NickG]

Jon,

Nice machine and nice pics, thanks for sharing. Some pretty useful looking off cuts too! Will be nice to see your first project underway. Don't do too much in the workshop  at the expense of revision  though  Guess some of your revision is in the workshop though - how cool is that! 

Nick

[Trion]

Thanks for the kind words! My exams went quite well, though it was a bit stressing to have 6 of them during the last month
Yeah, I'm very satisfied with my new metal assortment, will definetely be going back to get some more on a another occasion!

Regarding the ball turner, I'm having second thoughts about having the cross slide as part of the bearing surface. I really don't want to wear this out by swinging the ball turner back and forth. Think I'm going to mount it on a plate which is held to the cross slide. That should also allow me to move the swing point further towards centre, making it possible to retract the cross slide enough to close the gap over the acme screw.
Another problem that has showed up on the horizon, is the need to mill the slot for the tool holder. As I see it, I've got two options, make a higher offer on that nice lumpy TOS mill I'm looking at, or have someone help me mill it. You could say it's a battle between mind and wallet..

[Trion]

I just realised something, which I seem to realise at this time each year, shopping is not for me! I know of nothing more exhausting than an afternoon wasted in a mall! Luckily I managed to sqeeze in a few hours in the workshop today, to heal my wounds after yesterdays struggle..

Made the final facing cut on the stainless plate. Not quite sure where I'll use it, since i changed my ball turner plans. But it won't go to waste!


I dug out my HSS internal tool and started the everlasting process of opening up the centre hole. My biggest drill is 15,5mm (0,61") and the internal turning tool doesn't properly fit into a hole smaller than 25mm (1"), so I ended up with two different cut series before i managed to get the hole to proper size to get the tool in


After some further enlargement, the hole was big enoug to fit the inside jaws of the chuck




So I removed the plate from the chuck. I'm actually very amazed with the result, never thought I'd get this kind of surface finish straight of the machine with self ground tools


Then I mounted the plate backwards in the chuck. Note to self: dig out the dial gauge and align the part properly next time!


I turned down the speed qute a lot and gave the outer surface a few deep roughening cuts at a slow feed. Eventually I was able to machine along the entire outer surface


Some cutting going on


And the surface after the finishing cut. Will have to redo this because I just noticed that the machined surface which now is to the rear, was wobbling a bit when the part was turned

[Trion]

Friday, I got word that there was a big workshop sale from a manufacturing/automation company nearby. So I took a long lunch from work and went to see. Now I have mixed feelings that I didn't bring more money, because they had everything!
Drills, taps, milling tools, turning tools, loads of hand tools, pneumatic tools, several cranes and loads of automation stuff like air cylinders, valves etc. I even found a pair of 320V dc brushless servo motors, but figured that I'm never going to get 320V here, so I left them there.
Anyways, here's what I got


Negotiated the price down from 350 to 240£ (400$). It still is a fair amount of cash, but there are quite a few tools aswell! I think I'm going to give the Glanze tooling set a pass for now!


Amongs litterarely hundreds of turning tools (most were 25x25mm) I found a iscar parting blade with holder
(the cutting tool on the left has a MT2 shank...)


Some grooving tools, 16 and 26mm shank


Other 16mm tools. Luckily almost all of them use small triangle inserts of the same size. Amongst the inserts i brought with me i found some triangle ones with proper size, unfortunately they had a mounting hole in the middle. But it was possible to use them with the tool holders!


A Röhm drill chuck, a very good german brand which makes a lot of lathe chucks aswell


A couple of reamers, some were still in the box



Milling stuff:
I think this is some sort of edge finder, made in sweden came with calibration instructions aswell. Anyone have experience with this?


And some milling tools, as far as I can recall, all the indexable ones are seco



After the new tools had been organized i figured it would be a good time to try using carbide inserts. Mounted a holder in the toolpost and gave the stainless piece from last time a go


It made an almost mirror like finish on the outside, so I hogged a nice deep cut on the face aswell. This is not even a finishing cut!


I then tried turning some aluminium, here with something that looks like a 1,5-2mm pass. Regardless of the humongous cut (in HSS terms anyways) the surface was pretty nice!



I then figured I'd go back to working on my ball turner. But my new plans involved a plate, so i had to dig out one of the 4 jaw chucks. Looked like a right mess!


Pulled it apart


Cleaned of the worst gunk


But when I tried to assemble it, I noticed a gap between the rear of the chuck and the back plate


The back plate was mounted in the lathe and I looked for run-out. There was actually major runout on all surfaces, regardless of the way it was mounted to the spindle. Out came the carbide tool again, and away went the material


First two faces turned. I don't have a slide lock screw, so I had to hold the handle for the main slide all the time


Then it was time to cut the surface which initially had created the gap. Notice the cloth to protect the ways from the nasty cast dust


Back plate all trued up, it was time to get the chuck back on again


I learnt my lesson the hard way. After dropping the chuck on the ways, fortunately no damage, I found some wood for further protection..


Chuck mounted up, but still very rusty




Out came a long piece of sand paper, and away the rust went


Since I also had turned the face which centers the chuck (it also had major run-out) there was now some room for it to wobble upon assembly. I therefore loosened the mounting bolts, tightened them "snug" and adjusted the chuck until i got 0,01mm runout (0,0004")


Eventually I was ready to mount the intended plate, and trued it up to be quite on center and the surface had a run-out of about 0,08mm (0,003") before I got on with the cutting.


Remembering someone saying carbide isn't for interrupted cuts, i got on with the HSS cutter instead


Forgot to take pictures of the faced plate, but it looked pretty well! Afterwards i turned the plate in the chuck, and moved it out of center. This time i relied on my recently turned surface beeing paralell with the face of the jaws. I then drilled a hole (a proper size countersink makes a good centre point drill!) and turned a face for the ball turner to sit on


Turned the part again, here's the recently turned face, after a bit of 320 wet sanding. I made a countersink for an M8 DIN 7991 bolt, yes my countersink tool is very dull! Then i rechucked the plate and made a mounting hole for the centering piece to sit in the hole where the top slide normally is


Finished plate


Next was getting the 3 jaw back on and making the centering piece. Seems like the carbide tool didn't mind the interrupted cuts made from the water jets starting point!


After having faced it, I found some taps and tapped the hole to M8. Here the hole is 5mm and there are M6 taps, but I had a change of heart..




To be able to turn the entire outer surface i tried some unconventional mounting. Put a M8 bolt in the part, chucked up the bolt, tightened the part to the surface of the chuck jaws, tightened up the chuck, added a securing nut aaaand supported the lot with my new dead centre


I had done a bit of bogstandarding (thinking ahead), and made noth on the part so that I had a conservative 2m gap between the end of the face and the chuck jaws. Some passes later it looked like this


Further processing awaits

[Darren]

You got some nice tools there, I see you are liking the carbide ones already ... 

[NickG]

Nice work Trion.

You can tell the difference with a good quality lathe! I haven't tried carbide tools on my lathe yet, but if santa brings me one of the things on my list I might be swayed down that route! The only thing is I might not have the necessary speed for it.

Nick

[jim]

thats a very impresive haul of tooling and material!

HSS is ok on stainless (i do a lot of stainless at home and sharp HSS is my first choice)

i'm looking forward to more of your posts, the pictures are good

[kvom]

Nice thread.

I noticed that the HSS tool was protruding quite a bit for the facing cuts, so that might have contributed to some surface irregularities.  The carbide holder looks a lot more rigid, as well as allowing greater DOC.

The piston levelers are pretty sweet.   

[Trion]

Darren: Yeah, carbide is some good stuff

Nick: Thanks! Regarding speeds, when turning with carbide I'm still running on the 6" pulley instead of the 5", so when looking at the speed chart i have had a maximum of 680 rpm. I'm sure your lathe will do that! 

Jim: Thanks for the kind words. As of yet, my camera has gone missing. The turning part of the ball turner is now finished, now I need to get it milled somewhere

kvom: Thanks, that's a good point. I didn't take pictures of them, but when I bought all the tools, i got about 30-40 HSS tools aswell. Many are of the more beefier type, that don't need an extra holder. Next time I don't feel like using carbide (might take a while ), I'll try some HSS tools with less protrusion. 

[NickG]

Mine will do 720rpm but the stuff you were doing was very large diameter so would probably need faster for small dia's

Nick