Author Topic: Another Swinging Threading Tool (Read 36649 times)

Darren · « **on:** December 19, 2009, 08:54:22 PM »

I thought I'd have a go at making one of those swinging threading tools ...

Started with a block of 2" sq, another one of those can't hacksaw metals

Not even going to attempt my HSS steel cutter on this material so knocked it into shape with this

For the other side I used a 12mm single insert cutter. I was a bit dubious about a single tip cutter causing chatter, but I needn't have worried as it cut this just fine.

These little cutters are superb, chew through at quite a rate whilst hardly heating the stock at all. The main lump barely gets warm to the touch.
The larger one was taking a 15x10mm section of mild steel off in one pass, no problem.

A little more shaping and then a locating slot was produced.

Section of ordinary mild steel for the swinging bit

Once shaped the two pieces were clamped so the pivot hole could be drilled as one for proper alinement.

Reamed for a clean bore with whatever size this reamer is? No idea as the markings have gone.

I have got a little further but no pictures, made the pin and a little cleaning up. Maybe tomorrow if I get the time I can finish this one and give it a try out.....

chuck foster · « **Reply #1 on:** December 19, 2009, 09:04:53 PM »

looking good darren...............won't be long and you will have another usefull bit of tooling

chuck

andyf · « **Reply #2 on:** December 19, 2009, 09:12:29 PM »

Hi Darren,

I'm not sure that the ledge over the top of the swinging part has any useful function. It might be a disadvantage on coarse threads, or fine threads on large diameters as on telescopes etc, by stopping the swinging part moving high enough. Also, if it wasn't there, you could manually flip the toolholder up out of the way to test the fit of a nut on the thread being cut, rather than running the saddle back a long way to get sufficient room.

Just my two penn'orth, seeking views before I set to and make one myself.

Andy

Darren · « **Reply #3 on:** December 19, 2009, 09:15:47 PM »

Hi Andy, I did reshape it a bit to give more room. The only reason I left it on was to stop the swinging bit flopping around all over the place. To keep it more together like.

But I take note of what you say about trying a nut on the thread, good point !! Maybe some more doctoring to come then

Thanks

Bernd · « **Reply #4 on:** December 19, 2009, 09:16:05 PM »

Weeehu, you are dangerous with those big cutters. No metal is safe from you.

Two days for a swing threading tool? Now that's fast.

Hope it works out good for you Darren.

Bernd

Darren · « **Reply #5 on:** December 19, 2009, 09:19:35 PM »

Honestly Bernd, these cutters eat metal at a phenomenal rate ...!!

Even the hard stuff as I'm using here ..

Andy, even with the top bit the tool tip not only swings up but it also move back by around 15mm. But even so, I may take the top off as you suggest, we shall see

Darren · « **Reply #6 on:** December 20, 2009, 01:33:28 PM »

It works

Rather well actually

Darren · « **Reply #7 on:** December 20, 2009, 04:21:55 PM »

Ok I've finished cleaning up the tool, well as much as I'm going to as it's only a tool

Knocked the top off as suggested by Andy ..

Milled a 10mm tool slot

Drilled three holes for the tool clamping screws, M4 in this case but having done it they seem a tad on the small side so I'd suggest M5.

Then I needed to match the keyway slot on the main part to the swinging section.
Rather than fuss around measuring and then getting it wrong

I did it this way ... lined up the cutter to the main body slot and then pushed the swining section gently by hand into the rotating cutter.

Once I had the slot started I did it properly

Bang on, rather unsurprisingly

I then cut a key from some 12mm round stock, won't bore you with those pic's

All the bits now made it's time to give it a go ...
Please bear in mid the HSS threading tool is not at it's best as it needs resharpening and it's overhanging far too much. Also the swinging tool holder is set over at an angle due to the angle the HSS has been ground at. Even so it worked really well.
I will invest in a new tungsten cutter for this tool after the commercial period.

A 1.5mm pitch at 20mm dia. Not the best picture in the world, sorry. It did come out OK.

Here's a better one, 2.5mm pitch on the same bar ...

Now it's going to be hard to convey just how well this tool works and how much easier it makes cutting threads compared to the "proper" way of doing it.

With no winding out and back in again, no threading dial to watch out for and no engaging/dis-engaging the lead screw, this really is a simple way of threading.
If you have a little time to spare then this is one tool that will gain that spare time back again, and then some, in due coarse.

Here are some more pictures after I cleaned it up a little.

You may have noticed that I didn't use a bronze bush as Bogs did. Not being a high speed device I gathered something simpler would suffice.
Also note the front of the swinging too lholder overhangs the main body in an attempt to help keep swarf away.

You may have also noted that the keyway has stuck itself in the swinging part and not the main base section. This is not by design, that's where it chose to be

I shall probably alter this with some Locktite ...

Credits & acknowledgements:
Mike Cox: for the original concept
Andyf: for bringing this to our attention on this board
John/Bogs: for building and proving the first prototype

Rob.Wilson · « **Reply #8 on:** December 20, 2009, 04:38:50 PM »

Hi Darren

Great job

great photo build too,, i must have ago and make one

Regards Rob

andyf · « **Reply #9 on:** December 20, 2009, 04:45:16 PM »

Nice one, Darren

And I see from the photos that it will even do the job without the tool clamp screws in place

Andy

Bernd · « **Reply #10 on:** December 20, 2009, 05:28:42 PM »

You did what?

(I did it this way ... lined up the cutter to the main body slot and then pushed the swining section gently by hand into the rotating cutter.) Didn't you consider that a bit dangerous?
I want a picture of your hand to see if all fingers are still attached.

Glad the tool worked out for you. I still don't know if it would work in my Logan with all that backlash. Guess I'm just going to have to make one and see.

Thanks for sharing Darren.

Bernd

Darren · « **Reply #11 on:** December 20, 2009, 06:27:38 PM »

I just knew someone was going to pick me up on that ....

I almost put a disclaimer in .......

Please bear in mind you'd have to try pretty damned hard to get anywhere near the cutter in this case as it was well hidden. The swing bit was clamped with its screw and could only be pushed open if anywhere at all. In all honesty I did put some thought into it first as I do like my fingers as they are.

As it was there was nothing to it, cept perhaps I'd say don't be so silly and try this at home boys and girls ......

You know this tool could be made simpler with a bit less machining and a smaller lump to start with. Having used it it doesn't need to be as big as this.

If only I could draw

Darren · « **Reply #12 on:** December 20, 2009, 06:45:32 PM »

Like this .... cut off everything above the red line. Would save a whole load of machining as the cutter does not need any re-enforcement when it's lifted up as any (small) load is the other way. Not that it climbs hardly any height anyway.

You just don't need the top bit

Stilldrillin · « **Reply #13 on:** December 21, 2009, 02:19:51 AM »

VERY well done, & shown Darren!

Thank you......

David D

sbwhart · « **Reply #14 on:** December 21, 2009, 06:44:11 AM »

You've made a real good job of that Darren

Your mill and lathe will really start to pay you off now.

Have fun

Stew

Bernd · « **Reply #15 on:** December 21, 2009, 09:28:41 AM »

Darern,

There you go, that picture will work quite nicely. What other improvements do think could be done to the tool to make it smaller?

I'm wondering if the material where the slot is, on the part you marked with a red line, could be partially eliminated?

Bernd

Darren · « **Reply #16 on:** December 21, 2009, 10:51:15 AM »

Do you mean the bottom "ledge" Bernd.

You could reduce this but in my mind mass is everything, esp under larger cutting forces such as threading.

Incidentally Bernd, I think on a machine where there is excessive backlash is where this tool will really shine....

Bernd · « **Reply #17 on:** December 21, 2009, 04:27:33 PM »

Yes, Darren, that's were I was thinking, the bottom "ledge". Now that you mention the cutting forces though it's probaly not a very good idea.

I still don't think we are on the same wave length about that backlash. So lets see if I can get at what I mean.

When you take the cut going toward the chuck on a right hand thread there is no backlash. Ok.
Now you stop the lathe and reverse the motor. At this point on my lathe the chuck will turn approximatley 1/4 turn before the lead screw reverses. I can see that the tool would raise up a bit at this point. But on my lathe the chuck will turn one full revolusion before the carriage actually starts in reverse. The tool would have to totaly come out of the cut on a very course thread.

What I saw in my mind was that the tool would get hung up in the groove just cut. Now if the tool can travel all the way out of the cut I guess it works. That was the one reason I questioned the tool Bogs built. Since it was limited to the up travel on it's rerverse path.

The only way I can prove this is to actually build one of these tools and try it out on my machine. Right now I have no ambition to do any type of metal work. So I guess it will have to wait.

I hope I explained it clearly enough. If not oh well, it's been a great disscusion producer.

Bernd

Darren · « **Reply #18 on:** December 21, 2009, 04:35:26 PM »

I understand what you mean Bernd, mine jumps a thread before moving along and I have little backlash. To jump two or more before the leadscrew gets going shouldn't harm anything.

As long as you leave a little run in on the next cut to take the slack up you should be fine

If you were around the corner you could borrow this one to try, but hardly worth sending it back and forth with the cost.

It will be fine Bernd, I'm sure of it

NickG · « **Reply #19 on:** December 21, 2009, 05:32:38 PM »

Nice work there Darren, thread looks really good.

Nick

75Plus · « **Reply #20 on:** December 22, 2009, 10:20:08 PM »

I have a question! Could a QCTP holder be the beginning, i.e. base, for a this? There is a US supplier, CDCO Machinery, that currently has BXA size holders selling for about half the regular price. At $9 it would be a cheap way to make a start on this project.

http://cdcotools.com/

Comments welcome!

Joe

andyf · « **Reply #21 on:** December 23, 2009, 03:15:39 AM »

I'm sure it could, Joe, provided that you could get the tool down to centre height. The BXA toolholder would need to go lower than normal, because the tool would be raised up by the depth of the floor of the swinging part. If it looks feasible, it's certainly worth a try at those prices!

Andy

Darren · « **Reply #22 on:** December 23, 2009, 05:17:03 AM »

Wow, they are giving those away ..

But I'm not sure if there is enough meat on them to fit the swinging bit in as well

NickG · « **Reply #23 on:** December 23, 2009, 05:36:01 AM »

They are, wonder how much it would work out with shipping etc to UK!

John Stevenson · « **Reply #24 on:** December 23, 2009, 10:06:49 AM »

Made one today when I had a spare hour and a half waiting for some weld to dry.

I won't post here and detract from darrens tool but start a new post however I cheated and bolted a tool to a blank tool holder.

John S.

75Plus · « **Reply #25 on:** December 23, 2009, 10:13:03 AM »

Quote from: NickG on December 23, 2009, 05:36:01 AM

They are, wonder how much it would work out with shipping etc to UK!

Nick, On their home page they invite emails from outside the US so give them a shout. Could be a good savings at the sale price. They are selling a complete QC units for about half what the nearest competition is asking.

I have ordered a couple of the holders to attempt a mod. I believe, by using a 1/4" tool, I will be able to go low enough and still have enough floor thickness. I will start a new thread if it appears that it is feasible.

Joe

Darren · « **Reply #26 on:** December 23, 2009, 10:37:37 AM »

Ha, nice one John, does it work

I have been wondering just how simple this coud be made? It's all well and good doing loads of fancy shapes and over complicated engineering etc.

But what about just the tool as John has done, a flat plate with a bolt sticking out instead of the bottom ledge?
The bolt head could also act as the keyway and if the threads are bruised on the plate the bolt could be adjusted.

With no bottom ledge swarf wouldn't be an issues either, not that it seems to be anyway.

John Stevenson · « **Reply #27 on:** December 23, 2009, 12:03:07 PM »

Quote from: Darren on December 23, 2009, 10:37:37 AM

Ha, nice one John, does it work

Finished thread,

John S.

andyf · « **Reply #28 on:** December 23, 2009, 12:40:16 PM »

Nowt wrong with that, John, judging by your result

. It won't do LH threads, but speaking for myself, 95% or more of those I cut are RH.

Being pedantic, there's positive rake on your tool, which will affect the thread angle, though only very slightly.

Andy

John Stevenson · « **Reply #29 on:** December 23, 2009, 01:39:44 PM »

Quote from: andyf on December 23, 2009, 12:40:16 PM

Nowt wrong with that, John, judging by your result . It won't do LH threads, but speaking for myself, 95% or more of those I cut are RH.

Being pedantic, there's positive rake on your tool, which will affect the thread angle, though only very slightly.

Andy

Why won't it do LH ?

The tool started life as a paring tool and I accurately marked the angles out with my trusty felt pit and took the positive rake into account when i was following the felt tip lines.

John s.

andyf · « **Reply #30 on:** December 23, 2009, 02:05:04 PM »

Quote

John S: Why won't it do LH ?

I was thinking that its only lateral support near the business end was on one side (the face of the fixed part), which will be fine for RH threading. But on LH threads, it will tend to be pushed to the left (from the operator's viewpoint), where the side support is from the nut and washer, a long way from the tooltip and perhaps thus subject to undue leverage. Or have I missed something (I expect I have!). Perhaps there's a tenon hidden beneath.

Andy

John Hill · « **Reply #31 on:** December 23, 2009, 03:18:46 PM »

Excellent project Darren and I can see one of those lying in the scrap box just waiting to be discovered.

Darren · « **Reply #32 on:** December 23, 2009, 06:01:19 PM »

Nice to see it worked for you John and to see they needn't be anything complicated.

Does your lathe reverse without stopping ? What is it?

John Stevenson · « **Reply #33 on:** December 23, 2009, 07:37:31 PM »

Darren,
It's a TOS 14" swing x 40 BC and is fitted with forward and reverse clutches with a brake in neutral. You can bang it straight from forward to reverse with no problems which makes it ideal for this type of threading.

It's made to leave the 1/2 nuts enganged as reverse is 1 1/3 times faster than forward to save time going back, nice machine.

Did a LH thread tonight, same pitch, 2mm again no problems in fact it even easier as you are running away from the chuck.

Video here:-

Finished thread.

John S.

Darren · « **Reply #34 on:** December 23, 2009, 08:29:01 PM »

Well I think that demonstrates it rather well, seemed to be no pulling there on the left handers

Thanks for taking the time to do the vid

andyf · « **Reply #35 on:** December 24, 2009, 03:13:27 AM »

Well, I can't argue with that, John

. I'm happy to be proved wrong, but sorry if you've had to waste any steel in doing so. It certainly simplifies the design.

Andy

John Stevenson · « **Reply #36 on:** December 24, 2009, 05:45:09 AM »

Andy,
No problem and nothing wasted as I wanted to do this to use and not just as an exercise.
When threading I always leave the half nuts in and reverse the machine I find this far faster than waiting for the dial and making mistakes.

The fact you can put the next cut on whilst it's going back also saves time and because the infeed is always in the same direction you don't have to worry about backlash. For me it's a plus so any trials are just that.

I could see it being a problem for many who have machines that can't reverse easily and the screwed chuck problem is bound to raise it's head but I reckon that is overrated.

John S.

No1_sonuk · « **Reply #37 on:** December 24, 2009, 08:06:48 AM »

Considering how simple these have been demonstrated to be, I'm surprised I've not seen them available commercially.

Darren · « **Reply #38 on:** December 24, 2009, 10:33:06 AM »

It just needs someone to come up with an idea .... I'm amazed this didn't happen 100yrs ago

Bernd · « **Reply #39 on:** December 24, 2009, 11:01:39 AM »

Well, my fear of to much backlash has been cured with that vid.

Thanks John.

Bernd

Darren · « **Reply #40 on:** December 24, 2009, 07:09:10 PM »

I wasn't going to bother posting this as I've already posted something similar before ... but I had a slight mishap with a tool that I wanted to share so here goes ...

It's the first real threading job with the new swinging tool so I'll stick it on this thread.

All was going well, just taken the first scoring pass to check I had the right thread settings. 5/16x18 in this case. I didn't have a die so thought I'd let the lathe do it.

Then disaster, dialled in another 0.05mm/0.002" for the next pass and it took the tip off my brand spanking new carbide threading tool

I couldn't believe it, I thought these brazed toosl were supposed to be tougher than the insert type

But this one gave up just by looking at the job.

So, out with a stick of HSS and I ground both ends. One to 60deg and the other to 55.

Got to give HSS one thing, it sure does take some abuse

Anyway this is what I was making ...

Bernd · « **Reply #41 on:** December 25, 2009, 08:54:57 AM »

Nice save Darren.

I wonder if the brazing heat weakened the carbide tool?

At .002" cut it shouldn't have broken like that. Makes me wonder if it was cracked to begin with. Maybe dropped or hit with something else?

Bernd

Ned Ludd · « **Reply #42 on:** December 25, 2009, 10:54:20 AM »

Hi Darren,
You must remember there are cheap and nasty Carbides, just like everything else these days.

and unfortunately price is no criteria for judging cheap and nastiness.

Merry Christmas to all Modders mad or otherwise.
Ned Ludd

Twmaster · « **Reply #43 on:** December 25, 2009, 10:26:13 PM »

Plans for this? I'm impressed enough to feel confident as somebody that's never done single point thread cutting that even -I- can do this! Now that you gents have refined this some I'm interested in making one.

John Stevenson · « **Reply #44 on:** December 26, 2009, 06:34:37 AM »

Quote from: Twmaster on December 25, 2009, 10:26:13 PM

Plans for this?

Plans ???
No need, it's very simple, the tool or holder has to swing with minimal play, it's located on some form of key or dowel to stop it twisting.
If someone was to publish plans chances are it wouldn't fit your toolholder / lathe anyway.

Sorry to sound harsh but you have you stand on your own two feet and wing it otherwise you will want you hand holding on every exercise.
Between this post and Bog's original one there are enough pictures to explain everything.

If you get stuck ask, people will think better of you for trying in the first place.

John S.

Rob.Wilson · « **Reply #45 on:** December 26, 2009, 01:15:07 PM »

harsh ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Just a bit John

Rob

raynerd · « **Reply #46 on:** December 26, 2009, 07:17:39 PM »

same old.....yet new members still join.

Nice work Darren. Looks excellent and I totally missed this thread, thing I confused it with another. Looking good and may have persuaded me to try one.

Chris

Twmaster · « **Reply #47 on:** December 26, 2009, 10:59:02 PM »

Sorry I asked....

Buh bye.

raynerd · « **Reply #48 on:** December 27, 2009, 02:08:48 AM »

Yea, don`t be sorry you asked. Was certainly a valid question... however quite a few of the chaps on here are so good that stuff is made without plans and just from their understanding. The best you can do at times is use these threads as plans but I often would get lost without anything exact to follow.

John Stevenson · « **Reply #49 on:** December 27, 2009, 06:46:46 AM »

No come on it wasn't said nastily or meant derogatory at all.

Perhaps it didn't come over right but if I had sat down and drawn some drawings / sketches up they would not have been any use to ANYONE on this board.

For a start my toolholder is unique as it's home made so you would have had to look at the pics and alter that part to suit your machine.
Secondly the tool used was probably too big to fit on may of the hobby lathes on this forum so that would have had to be altered by looking at the pictures, seeing how it was fastened, then seeing where you could use the same method.

The bottom keep plate is also unique to the type of holder / size of assembly so wouldn't be of use either.

So you have three part assembly drawings that are no use. What is of use for you to work out what will fit your machine are the pictures showing how it fits which are there.

This also applies to the designs that Bog's and Darren made, they were made to suit what they had handy.

The remarks were not meant nastily but more a way to get people to think for themselves, there are only 3 or 4 parts to this, what happens later when you want to make something a little more complicated?

Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats for life.

John S.

Brass_Machine · « **Reply #50 on:** December 27, 2009, 09:24:51 AM »

Try to teach him to fish and quits.

He asked for his account to be closed and locked. I didn't like the answer I got when I asked why, So instead I banned him. I am tired of chasing people to get them to come back,

Eric

Darren · « **Reply #51 on:** December 27, 2009, 09:54:29 AM »

Oh dear, I did send Twmaster a PM to suggest that he had taken John the wrong way ...

To anyone else it may concern:-

I do not believe John Stephenson would deliberately wish to upset anyone. You only have to look around the net to find Johns posts (everywhere) to realise that this is someone that will bend over backwards to help anyone, newby or otherwise and at times will give a huge helping hand when others of his calibre would turn their backs.

One thing I have noticed with John is that he will at times give you a poke instead of doing your homework for you ... if this happens to you, take a breath and "re-read" the post because the answer you are looking for will be in there in my exp

You just need to turn your brain to the next gear.

John, I apologies for speaking of you in the third person, but credit where it is due .... and it certainly is due....

NickG · « **Reply #52 on:** December 27, 2009, 01:22:11 PM »

The fact that Darren and John S made their own versions of what Bogs did in the space of a about a week showed what could be done, I thought John made a good point there, just reiterating what had been shown by the two build logs. I generally try not to get involved in these sorts of things but if somebody is going to take a constructive comment like that completely out of context maybe they should stick to reading the paper.

Nick

John Stevenson · « **Reply #53 on:** December 27, 2009, 02:29:13 PM »

I posted the tool I made over at the HSM forum, virtually a copy of what was posted here, overnight because of the time difference Gary Hart made one that was his interpretation of it from what he had handy.

Very different from what has gone before but still a variation of the swinging concept and I dare say many can recognise what it started life as,full marks to Gary for the design.

John S.

cedge · « **Reply #54 on:** December 27, 2009, 03:11:10 PM »

John
Lacking any real way to express the intended tone of a comment within a post makes for this type of thing happening once in a while. I've been caught by the same trap myself when my comments were only meant in humor. Yes.... the comments could have been taken as somewhat harsh, but the content of your message was only giving the guy the truth. One size doesn't fit all, so drawings would have been of no value to him or anyone.

I hate to see anyone quit, but there really is no way of determining how thick another member's hide is until things like this occur. His hide was apparently already tissue thin and his fuse a bit short.

Go and sin no more....(grin)
Steve

Darren · « **Reply #55 on:** December 27, 2009, 07:19:44 PM »

Wonderful stuff John ...

How long till we see that one in the catalogues ...............

Divided he ad · « **Reply #56 on:** December 27, 2009, 07:24:20 PM »

I'm liking all the interpretations of this tool..... specially liking the diversity!!!!

Sooner or later I'm going to have to have a go!!!

Ralph.

Davo J · « **Reply #57 on:** December 27, 2009, 07:27:05 PM »

First of all great work on the swinging toolpost Darren.

I have been reading through this post each day, and don't think John was out of line. Like he said there are enough pictues and drawings in both posts to build one. If that fellow left because of that one comment, he's lucky he's not working in the industry, or he would be leaving every job as well.
Dave

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Author Topic: Another Swinging Threading Tool (Read 36649 times)

Rob.Wilson

Rob.Wilson