Author Topic: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2  (Read 23641 times)

Offline Davo J

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 475
  • Country: au
Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« on: December 20, 2009, 08:42:23 PM »
As the other tread is locked I thought I would continue it on here as I thought this would be of interest to everyone.
Original question from the first thread
Hi Guys

I sold a batch of fountain pens to a bloke in Spain for £74. After he had paid I removed the funds from paypal to my bank account. The buyer says he never received the goods and since I have no tracking proof, but I`ve removed the funds from my account, paypal awarded the buyer his money back leaving me with a "negative" balance. I`m just not in a position to give this money back, I`ve lost the pens and although in reality I haven`t lost the money, since I`ve spent it weeks ago it feels like I`ve lost the £74 as well if I gave it back.

Now I don`t mean to be rude but this really isn`t a "Paypal sucks" thread or even a "Always post tracked" thread....I know I know I know all that. Paypal sucks and if you are going to use it send parcels tracked! I want to know where I stand in terms of this negative balance.

Paypal don`t seem to be able to take the money from my account or they would have, I`ve also seen messages where they have asked me to autherise them to take this payment. I`ve not done this yet and I`m more than happy to close this account and never use it again but can they take it from my account, fine me or take me to court....where do I stand? I`ve read a few things on the internet but they all seem to contradict each other, has anyone got any experience?

Chris


My son went through the same thing recently and like you did not have any money in the account. What has happened is, he has had a few phone calls from a dept recovery agency asking for the payment of $90.00 for PayPal to be paid to them. He has told them that he had sent the parcel and they referring it back to PayPal. In the end I think he will have to pay it though as PayPal have already given the money back to the buyer.
 I think at some time in the future your dept to PayPal will also be put into the hands of a dept recovery agency.
Dave

Offline ieezitin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 662
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2009, 12:19:15 PM »
Gentlemen.

This is an interesting topic which I feel should be aired too.

Ebay is such an avenue for parts, tools and the like and gives people like us great opportunities to further our hobbies, I think everyone should be aware of the pros and cons of this system.

I can only speak from my experience so I shall tell you mine and how I solved it.

I make tooling and Ebay is my largest medium for selling my equipment, I sold an item to a guy in Texas and he paid through Pay Pall,  I used the flat rate shipping service the USPS offer us here in the US, with this service tracking or proof of delivery is included in the price. Also using this service I print shipping labels and pay through Pay Pal at the same time ebay gets informed and posts that the item is shipped, so that the buyer sees it on his summery.
 
I first received an email from this customer asking where his goods were, so I emailed back the tracking number so he can see on the net where it was, about two days later I received another email saying he received the package but there was nothing inside, an obvious scam was trying to materialize. I immediately contacted him and suggested he went through the Ebay dispute center to log a complaint about me and try to resolve it that way. There was no way was I going to play email tag with this guy.

Now! Knowing emails are pieces of evidence for lack of a better word, I contacted Ebay dispute center, explained what was going on and suggested they looked through my emails on this transaction, also I highlighted the fact that this purchase was one of my best selling items from my Ebay store and my score of over 200 at 100% shows I am honest.

He never emailed again and ebay informed me the dispute was resolved. I don’t know what that that meant but I left it there.

My advice is sell on ebay, but ship with tracking and insurance, at least here in the States when you ship with both they ask you the contents and log it and even weigh it, that in its self helps this type of scam. Second email everything so there is documentation and a record of the transaction if should be needed for later. When  you sell make sure its known that shipping will include this service when you post your item. When you list build in (Shipping  Same cost to all Buyers ) this way they pay for it not you. And lastly its all about credibility, getting your ducks in a row and acting fast, keeping emotion out of it and supplying just the information needed to give your side of the dispute.

Knowledge is power,

Hopes this helps some people.

Anthony
If you cant fix it, get another hobby.

Offline Bernd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3688
  • Country: us
  • 1915 C Cab
    • Kingstone Model Works
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 05:07:20 PM »
Very nice Anthony.

Hope this will make some E-bay sellers/buyers more alert on how to protect themselves from a scam.

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds

GrahamC

  • Guest
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 11:07:54 PM »
Well put and good advice Anthony.

I have bought and sold on eBay for going on ten years. In all those years I had one issue with one seller that was quickly resolved and one issue with one buyer which we also quickly resolved.

It pays to be honest and communicative and to when needed to extend a bit of trust.  But in all cases, keep good records and don't get talked into doing something you are not comfortable with. Understand the risks and take whatever steps you need so that you and the other party are comfortable with the transaction.

There are a lot of scam artists using eBay - buyers and sellers. But, like society in general are the exception rather than the rule. Develop a nose for BS and steer clear when your instinct tells you to do so.

cheers, Graham in Ottawa Canada

Offline tel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: au
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2009, 06:55:04 AM »
I have had nothing but positive dealings on ebay, the only beef I have is the outrageous postal charges that American sellers want for their goods, the rest of the world can post at quite reasonable rates, why not the USA?

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2009, 07:04:45 AM »
I'm sorry but I don't buy it. There have been too many cases of sellers banging their heads against the wall trying to reason with Paypal to no avail. Despite their reasoning would be very clear to any sane person listening.

The Paypal resolution disputes are automated, unless you can actually get to speak to someone on the phone and get them to look at your specific details (often they refuse even when you are on the line) then I'm afraid no-one will have read your messages. You only have to read some of the replies they send back to realise this.

I belive it would be more likely the buyer felt some resistance from yourself and simply moved onto another deal to scam. They don't like hard work when their task is normally effortless.

Yes, I agree that most people are honest whether buyers or sellers, it's just a numbers game which unfortunatley the odds are changing as more unscroupulous people become aware.

YMMV
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Davo J

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 475
  • Country: au
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2009, 10:10:33 AM »
It's bad enough to sell something you have laying around and don’t want anymore to someone, and then get ripped off by the buyer and have to pay the money back PayPal. But in Chris's case he had put a lot of work into those pens as well as having to pay the money back. I think PayPal should look into this flaw in the system to protect sellers (and buyers), maybe some kind of verification emailed to them, postage receipt when sent or something. They need to do something as allot of people are getting discouraged from using it.
I have only bought on EBay, but have been ripped of a few times and got nowhere with PayPal. So it happens both ways buying and selling.
Dave

Offline raynerd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2893
  • Country: gb
    • Raynerds Projects - Raynerd.co.uk
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2009, 05:07:36 PM »
Just to let you know, I have since payed. Sucks - no pens and I feel £80 shorter!

Chris

Offline ieezitin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 662
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2009, 08:04:55 PM »
Well by reading the posts I see a pattern here. The Canadians & Americans are getting a fare deal from Ebay & Pay Pal,  and the Europeans & Australia people are getting slaughtered by these companies. Do not know the answer but there is a pattern.
If you cant fix it, get another hobby.

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2009, 08:22:58 PM »
I have been wondering if all this has anything to do with our distance selling laws?

That is, if the buyer is not able to inspect any goods before purchase then they have a right to return for a re-fund for what-ever reason they like. Simply changing your mind counts here.
The re-fund is of course authorised by the seller once the goods have been returned in the same condition as they were sent.

The difference with PayPal is that they are authorising the re-fund and not the seller. But unfortunately PayPal are in no position to know if the goods have actually been returned or not or even in what condition if they are.

To me it seems PayPal do not have this right, they are simply money movers nothing more.

So the question that begs to be asked is, does the US have similar distance selling regulations?

As far as I'm aware, an auction sale is final. That is you need to ascertain what the goods are and if the condition meets your requirements before bidding and deciding the value that suits yourself.
If you make a mistake and win the auction then it's tough, the goods are now yours and you will pay for them.

Paypal as far as I can see are in no position to make any decisions on the sale itself or the validity of. That is solely between the seller and the buyer at which the buck stops right there.

Caveat Emptor ... learn what it means and understand it fully before bidding.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 08:41:19 PM by Darren »
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

GrahamC

  • Guest
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2009, 09:58:00 PM »
Darren,

Well put and food for thought. I don't know about anything referred to as "distance selling laws", never gave it much thought; I will have to dig around a bit and educate myself on that.

However, you are absolutely correct, PayPal is nothing more than a money mover. Sort of like a credit card company - if you purchase something using your credit card you can (and many do, and many of those are fraudulent as well) challenge charges to their cards. The credit card will then if warranted refund the charge to the card holder and then "take" the money back from whomever processed the charge in the first place, whether or not the consumer (complainer) actually bought something or not.

And if you think it only happens with eBay and PayPal you are sadly mistaken. I have read many reports of individuals ordering items (some expensive and some not so expensive) from businesses, paying with a credit card and having the item or items mailed to them. After some period time they claim to have not received the package (even though they had) and after much complaining get the business to resend the items and then sometimes claiming to have not received the second package as well. And to top it all of, in a flurry of angry phone calls and name calling simply challenges the credit card transaction with the credit card company, keeps his money and the items that where mailed to him. Happens more often than you think.  Real businesses have an advantage in that much of these sorts of things can be written off at tax time as bad debts and other business expenses but they never recover all and sometimes their good names get smeared as well.

I know of some individuals who will go to a home reno store and buy a good top quality brand name power miter saw on a Friday, use it all weekend, clean it up and return it on Monday. These individuals are often quite open and proud of their "accomplishments".

It takes all kinds to make up the world - honest (the majority) and the not so honest (minority).  The police will often cite that they speed 90 percent of their time chasing after 10 percent of the population.

This has been an interesting discussion.

cheers, Graham


Offline Davo J

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 475
  • Country: au
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2009, 10:22:05 PM »
It’s these scammers that make it bad for the rest of us.
Graham
 I have never heard of the credit card fraud being done that way, and would never have even thought it could be done either. Some people know how to use/abuse the system.
About tools being returned, I read on one of the forums that a tool company in Canada (I think) that exchange things without question. While he was standing in line the fellow in front had a rusty tyre iron that you could see had been left out side, he got an exchange no questions asked and off he went. I don’t think it will be long before they drop that policy because of people like that abusing the system.
Dave

Offline cedge

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 327
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2009, 10:42:00 PM »
The only time I've been nicked was not by Ebay or Paypal, but on a standard credit card transaction for 2 small steam engines I sold from my own web site to a fellow in Norway. All of a sudden I get a notice that the credit card company has registered a disputed transaction and they declined to pay the funds to my account. I had zero recourse and had to eat the the loss.

Time passes..... I get an order for Jensen Steam Engines..... from the same guy in Norway. He's tried 5 times to purchase an engine from the factory and 5 other times from various Jensen dealers around the world. Guess who can't buy one.......ever. He's blacklisted with each and every dealer worldwide. I also shared his name and his scam with the people I deal with who sell toy steam engines on several continents.

Nope.... never got my money, but I've had some small amount of satisfaction in silently screwing him over and over. His "collecting" efforts have been far harder than he probably ever expected.

I don't use Paypal, so I also don't sell on Ebay any more. It used to be a great place to buy, sell and meet others with similar interests. These days they've made it impossible to do any sort of due diligence as a buyer or seller, so the criminal elements have taken root. I miss the fun days, but I want nothing to do with the place now. I do occasionally purchase the odd tool, but always from an already known dealer who will still take other legal forms of payment...... off of Ebay.  Ebay will never tell me how my money is spent.... period.

Steve

Online Brass_Machine

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5504
  • Country: us
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2009, 11:42:04 PM »
I have had nothing but positive dealings on ebay, the only beef I have is the outrageous postal charges that American sellers want for their goods, the rest of the world can post at quite reasonable rates, why not the USA?

Tel... It isn't the sellers. It is the shipping services we have. The are overpriced to ship to other countries. Check the usps or ups website and see.

Eric
Science is fun.

We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2009, 06:07:16 AM »
Don't credit card companies limit you to something like three charge backs a year? So not that useful to a scammer whereas PayPal would be unlimited.


If you want to compare international delivery costs try www.interparcel.co.uk
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Bernd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3688
  • Country: us
  • 1915 C Cab
    • Kingstone Model Works
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2009, 10:38:30 AM »
If you want to compare international delivery costs try www.interparcel.co.uk

Darren,

We both know about that don't we?  ::)

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2009, 10:43:29 AM »
Sure do Bernd,

For the benifit of others, Bernd had a gift for me, but to send it here to the UK would have cost almost as much as the items value.

We compared the cost to sending it from here which turned out to be 1/4 of the cost coming from the US with the same carrier !!!

I couldn't organise it from here either as the cost again shot up.

No wonder your production industry is on its knees, ours in the exporting section seems to be climbing in this poor economy.
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline tel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: au
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2009, 03:08:58 AM »
Only as much as the items value - I recently looked at a small item on ebay from the US, where the quoted postage was $87 for a $13  item. I could get (and did) the same item posted from the UK for under $8

Offline tel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: au
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2009, 03:33:04 AM »
I have had nothing but positive dealings on ebay, the only beef I have is the outrageous postal charges that American sellers want for their goods, the rest of the world can post at quite reasonable rates, why not the USA?

Tel... It isn't the sellers. It is the shipping services we have. The are overpriced to ship to other countries. Check the usps or ups website and see.

Eric

Yeah Eric, I understand that, but these 'services' are costing your sellers dearly in lost sales. Also, many sellers, and it seems to be more prevalent in US sellers, opt to charge their own 'little' insurance premium, so there is fault there as well - the following is just a quick example I cam up with in less than 2 mins looking on ebay

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2009, 05:41:31 AM »
I don't know about the AUS but we have another problem .... import duty with the PO adding their tag of £8.50 or so to collect it.

We get fleeced all the way if buying from another country.
That's how come they can hold our retail prices so high, make it prohibitive to import anything.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 05:53:23 AM by Darren »
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline tel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: au
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2009, 06:11:18 AM »
Import duty should only kick in after a certain price limitation is reached tho' - bad news for purchasers of big ticket items, but I've never been hit with import duty on small packages.  In fact, the only duty I've ever had to pay was in about 1975 when I bought a Dremel from the, then, factory in Racine, Wis. $Au12 on a $Au30 tool.

These days I buy most of my BA fasteners from either Macc's Models or certain ebay dealers in the UK - I can buy (including the postage) 100 fasteners for the price I would pay for 20 or 25 here. I also buy a lot of small tooling items from the UK, and,before they went crazy, the US.

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2009, 06:17:26 AM »
Yes true but the threshold is not very high.

They once tried to charge me around £200 duty for an item worth £45 because the sender put £500 value on it just to make "sure" it wouldn't get lost on the way here  :doh:

I refused it and it was sent back and re-sent at the sender cost.
No duty the second time.
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline tel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: au
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2009, 12:13:41 PM »
Little doubt where the error lies in that one tho', is there? Either a very naive, or a very careless sender/seller. A bloke of my long-standing e-aquaintance in the UK regularly buys bogie side frame and wheel castings for his 7 1/4"g railway passenger trucks from a supplier here in Oz because he can do so cheaper, even after paying the postage, than he can get them from UK suppliers. It's a very strange situation.

Offline ieezitin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 662
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2009, 01:15:50 PM »
Gentlemen.

Tel”s example is quite shocking.

But I think I may of come up with a theory as to why us here in the states charge so much for overseas buyers. 

I sell a lot of my own designed tooling on Ebay and I have a store where the stuff trickles out. I have on my listings no international shipping but Ebay being greedy still show my listings abroad, now most people do not fully read the listing of the item they are interested in and since there is no shipping rates on my listings they  people from abroad email me for shipping costs. Now maybe the sellers response Is and I guess, think of a  price multiply it by three and respond to the email with the charges.

The reason for doing this is to send an item overseas you  need to go down to the post office to fill out a custom form  ( this includes Canada ) and some African nations have there own special documentation, usually the forms are 4 - 5 pages long and written in a language only an English professor can decipher, because of  911  the Homeland Security service demands answers to certain questions and if answered wrong you are held liable for any mistakes with prison terms up to 10 years Federal. Also the package sizes are scrutinized for silly sizes and weights and if you are off an inch  /  oz.  the price could double.

I use the USPS website for pricing and let me tell you when you enter in your details and it gives you an answer on the price and you go to the post office to send it they never match and usually its not in your favor. Then you can purchase the shipping documents and postage charges on line, fill in the info and pay the charge,  only to find when the post office receives it and gets processed  gets rejected your in the do-do.

Its not only the post office, This is a real example of what happened to me!. I had a 6 ton Chain hoist lever type for sale on Ebay, I listed the item and in the listing I stated no international buyers and sold only to the lower 48. ( lower 48 means no Hawaii and Alaska ) reason  ( we here on the mainland consider these states out of the country and even though they are the United States shipping items over that distance is not the same as to send a card from Here in Maryland to lets say Pennsylvania.)

Now a guy in Alaska wanted a price for shipping the item there, ok! I thought I would give it a shot, I phoned (UPS.  A private company)  Not ( USPS. Federal service.) I told them the weight 87Lbs and size of the crate,  Price was $97.00 7 day delivery. Which I thought was quite reasonable. I quoted the guy and he bought the item, money in Pay pall everything was Hunky-dory right?. The next day I crated the hoist and took it to the UPS depot struggled in the store the guy put in on the scale and started to do the paperwork then said “ that will be $210.00 “  What!!!!!!! You quoted me $97.00 what gives? He then explained that since the item was on a wood crate and could not be transported on a conveyor belt and a guy would have to personally handle the item from depot to depot to airplane and the like, the charges were what they were, his quote was for that item to be in a box so the conveyor  would be doing all the work ( he never told me this over the phone.) Well I re-packaged it went back and was charged the $87.00. P I T A.

So really what I am saying here even small items being sold abroad is just a hassle, its  designed that way. But let me say this!. I know Europe ( lived there 27 years)  and I know the States ( Been here 20 years)  There is a saying here “ Nickel and Dime you to death”  Listen they do!. Hidden charges, small details in print unseen, making a simple process outrageously difficult, selling lost leaders only to rape you somewhere else, suing lawyers with huge bank accounts and in need of the work.  Example: my phone bill is 5 pages long and illegible and I am on a fixed price per month.  The Americans are masters at selling and deceiving rolled into one. ( Good example was the Bank / Lending crisis ) I went back to England this year and noticed such behavior is happening there now, and this style of business is going global.

One more thing to consider and to put in an example would be this, England is one of the highest taxed Nations on earth last time I worked there my pay was taxed to around 52% ( this included National insurance stamp which = there health care ) then you get clobbered with a 17% VAT Tax when your money hit’s the streets, Thank you Maggie!. Do the math and you are left with little.

Now here in the States My income taxes run around 30% on a $1000,000 income not bad uh? Now I have to pay my State tax = 11% on my gross income annually, then there is my state sales tax ( everything purchased inside this state ) which is 6%, then there is my property taxes at around 16% based on my property value which is set by the state not the market, then I pay around 18% of my gross income for a private health care program, the list goes on people.

Hope this helps to understand some things and the way they work here in the states. Things seem cheaper example $2.56 a gallon of gas ( petrol ) then you get stupidly highly inflated costs to send things abroad, don’t make sense uh? Its designed that way. My conclusion is which ever way you slice the cake the result is the same and that goes for Europe and Australia

Sorry to drone on so long.      Anthony
If you cant fix it, get another hobby.

Offline jatt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 107
  • Country: au
  • chookshed engineer
Re: Paypal negative balance - can they take it? number 2
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2009, 09:25:14 PM »
I'm hearing u tel.

Even the small, lightweight, non delicate, plonk it in a sachel, easy to transport stuff like the inserts for my hearing protection.  Buying it in from the UK cause when all of the costs are tallied, no other means of obtaining them stacks up.  That includes stopping of at the one place in town that stocks them on the way to the workshop.
From an early age my father taught me to wear welding gloves . "Its not to protect your hands son, its to put out the fire when u set yourself alight".


Forget about the price of gold and oil, its the price of beer that matters.