Author Topic: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"  (Read 78047 times)

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2010, 10:18:55 AM »
Now, having gotten my lathe back together, all the swarf out and tools sharpened, the last cylinders are cut, total of eleven, nine for the count, and two in case of error, or breakage.  These will all be lapped on a "wrist pin honing machine" by a friend of mine, or I will make a hone myself, depending on his answer when I go to see him about it.  They are all three to four thousandths under the nominal one inch diameter just needing the final finish, for seating the rings, and hot blueing for finish and corrosion resistance.


Now I need to grind a couple of special tools for the fins of the heads, particularly the tool for the fins on the valve towers, as it is rather thin and delicate.  Once the heads are finished, each will be fitted to a cylinder and torqued on for a permanent fit, and then the cylinder stud holes will be located.  Only about eight hundred more parts to make, and it will be done.  With the cylinders slid in their places, the engine starts to look like a radial engine.  Mad Jack

Offline Artie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
  • Country: au
  • Down here in the Aussie sunshine/heat :-)
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2010, 11:25:59 AM »
Man this is nice, very very nice. I also love the feeling of goose bumps I get whenever I hear a radial running... I read somewhere that a pilot once said that "real airplanes have radial engines!" I kinda agree in a nostalgic sort of way...

Alss I have seen quite a few 5 cylinder radial models and, to me, 5 cylinders just isnt 'busy' enough... its gotta be 7 (or even better) 9 cylinders to 'look' right.

Well done mate and keep it going, great build up (and recovery from those all too common 'adventures' if thats what a broken tap is....)

Cheers Artie
South Wales, wait...NEW South Wales... Batemans Bay.

Offline crankshafter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 59
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2010, 12:53:24 PM »
Hi madjack.
Nice work and wrightup :thumbup: :clap:
CS

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2010, 09:35:00 AM »
Thanks all for the encouragement, this is finally fulfilling a life-long dream, I too believe only a radial engine fits in an aircraft, and nine cylinders is what I've been wanting to build for more than forty years.  I anticipate the day I can put a video of a running engine on the end of the thread, smoke, smell and all.  This forum is almost as good as having you guys over to the shop for a cup of joe, and shooting the breeze for an evening of pleasure!  I'm glad "the boys" are from all around the world, and from many languages and cultures.  It shows our common mind that we all react to the same special skills and talents. :nrocks: mad jack

Offline dsquire

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2275
  • Country: ca
  • Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2010, 02:55:10 PM »
MadJack

I have been following along on your thread and like the way that this rotary is coming together. An aircraft with a radial engine has a definite different character about it that inline engines just don't have. There are also some very nice multi-cylinder inline engines on these forums.

I agree, it is great to have world wide participation in these forums and the skills and talents that the members bring to the table are amazing.

Keep up the good work Jack, I'll be watching as it comes together.  :ddb: :ddb:

Cheers  :beer:

Don
Good, better, best.
Never let it rest,
'til your good is better,
and your better best

Offline Artie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
  • Country: au
  • Down here in the Aussie sunshine/heat :-)
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2010, 04:59:51 PM »
I think its about time some did a Lycoming flat 6 or 4.... although Im sure it wont look as mean as a radial... :)
South Wales, wait...NEW South Wales... Batemans Bay.

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2010, 09:18:03 AM »
In reply to Artie, I've got a book called "Building Mastiff", a full and complete set of plans and description of work to build a four cylinder water cooled flat engine, meant for a set of castings, but can easily be done from billet.  It is meant to be a working engine, so it is well designed and stout.  I hope to build it one day, but not till this one's done.!!!  Doctor's appointment today, next step is to start work on the crankshaft assembly, and then the rods.  The heads are complicated, but rather straight forward, just difficult and tedious work, the crankshaft is built up of five main parts, and some smaller ones, and will need testing in situ.  More to be posted later on.  Mad Jack

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2010, 01:34:51 PM »
Well all, having gotten the cylinders out of the way, I've gotten to the crank, which of course is the thing we all look forward to making, when building an engine.  In this one, the crankshaft is a five piece affair if you only count the big pieces, and about a twenty piece one, if you count all the pins and such.  I just count big pieces as that way I don't have to take off my boots in the count.
   The front shaft, which drives the propeller, has the first gear of cam drive train cut in the shaft its self, it is four and a quarter inches long, with a breather hole drilled from the prop end back, with a cross drilled hole near the pinion, and an oil feed hole drilled from the back end, half way through to the main bearing, where a hole will be drilled to let the oil out on the bearing.

threading the mainshaft for the prop nut

finishing the front shaft end

drilling the oil passage for the main bearing from the back side of front main shaft

cutting the pinion gear on the front shaft for the cam drive train

finished pinion, ready for a bearing sleeve to be pressed on and machined to fit.  cutting pinion runs off into bearing area, so it is cut down, making room for a sleeve when the pinion is done.

front shaft with the spur gear which it will drive

starting the jack shaft for the cam drive train

finishing the other end of the jack shaft for the cam drive pinion

jack shaft with both spur gear and pinion mounted, along with main shaft

main shaft propped in place in front main bearing, with jack shaft installed and spur gear engaged with pinion of the main shaft.  Main bearing is integral with bronze bearing which carries the cam, and also has rear jack shaft bearing reamed in it.

Offline zeroaxe

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2010, 03:06:31 PM »
My goodness  :bugeye: You rock! This build is fantastic. Honestly, I can only dream to have the skills you have...................AND THE GUTS to tackle such a project :headbang:
So much to learn, so little time - Author Unknown

Offline Bernd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3680
  • Country: us
  • 1915 C Cab
    • Kingstone Model Works
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2010, 07:26:01 PM »
Lookin' good there Madjack.  :thumbup:

Bernd
You can't fix "STUPID".

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2010, 04:45:29 AM »
nice work on the gears madjack - fantastic project this. I doubt if I'll ever have the skills or patience to make my own gears.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #61 on: March 12, 2010, 12:49:13 PM »
Hi all, and for you Nick, that is the first time I've ever cut a complete gear using proper equipment, and it actually engages with correct backlash, too.  More parts made, working on the gear train and cam drive to get it out of the way of moving forward with the multi-piece crank, which I expect to have fun with, especially drilling the oil passages.

making a stub arbor for turning the o.d. of the cam gear, and clearance for the cam bearing

the cam gear, note the internal teeth, these will engage with the pinion on the jack shaft

the cam gear in place on the stub arbor waiting to be clamped

cam gear clamped on stub arbor

cam gear machined, clearanced for the cam bearing

another view of gear on arbor

drilling holes in the cam retention plate, this hole is for the outer jack shaft bushing

boring the mainshaft clearance hole in the cam retaining plate

retaining plate completed.  Outside three holes will hold cam retaining bearing posts with the three inner holes sitting on stanchions, with screws through the stanchions, to fix the plate in proper place

cam retaining plate, jackshaft with gears, and the cam gear, relative to each other.  We shall see what a new day brings forth, hopefully some successful work on getting the crank ready and working.  Thanks for all the comments, it is almost as good as hanging around a coffee pot and exchanging views, or a tea pot, for those so inclined. Mad Jack :beer:


Offline Stormin

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 7
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #62 on: March 12, 2010, 03:10:44 PM »
Fantastic work!
I'm intrigued to know how you machined the internal teeth on the cam gear. Was it using a shaper or some tool post mounted bit in the lathe?

Offline Bernd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3680
  • Country: us
  • 1915 C Cab
    • Kingstone Model Works
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #63 on: March 12, 2010, 03:48:27 PM »
Yah Jack, how did you make those internal gears.  :scratch:

You din't buy it did you?  :wack: With all that work your doing I just can't see you purchasing a gear.  :beer:

Bernd
You can't fix "STUPID".

Offline sorveltaja

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #64 on: March 12, 2010, 07:10:33 PM »
Internal gears always get my attention. How was yours made? By broaching perhaps?


Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2010, 09:48:15 AM »
Well, I can see that I will have to hang my head in shame, I did buy the gear, along with most of the others, because it was cheaper than buying the cutters for two different gear sizes.  I will say that when I got the bill for the gears, I decided I'd never buy an internal one again, it was over seventy dollars by its self.  This engine build is a prelude to building a much larger radial engine for the use on a motorcycle, which I expect to be about a hundred cubic inches, and I want to work out all the difficulties on a small scale, before investing in the bigger scale.  I will be doing all the gear cutting for that, as once I saw the gear and it's abbreviated teeth, I realized it would have been an easy cut on a shaper and would set up and do it myself.  Ah well, it's only money!
   I have I think seven more gears to install, two for the oil pressure feed pump, and two for the scavenge pump, and one for the rear main shaft to drive the oil gears.  At the end of the rear main shaft, there will be a pair of bevel gears to drive the distributor, and they will be a two to one ratio as well.  As I told Nick, the pinion I cut on the front mainstaft is the first gear I've ever cut with the proper tooling, from start to finish, and it surprised me coming out perfect the first time with proper back lash and everything.
   I hope to get a good go on the crank shaft assembly, and the rear main bearing, so I can establish end play, as that is critical in the way this goes together.  More pictures coming soon.  Mad Jack :headbang:

Offline Bernd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3680
  • Country: us
  • 1915 C Cab
    • Kingstone Model Works
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2010, 04:45:16 PM »
Well sometimes you just need to buy some of the parts. That's OK we won't hold it against you Mad jack.  :headbang:

A larger radial engine scrtach built for a motorcycle?  :bugeye: That ought to be some build.  :bow:

More power to ya! for that project.  :ddb:

Bernd
You can't fix "STUPID".

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2010, 10:43:14 AM »
I appreciate the understanding shown, regarding buying gears, but I'll say this, if I had known the actual form the internal gear would have, is has quite abreviated addendums, to clear the pinion, I would have set up on the shaper and cut it.  I also want to say, I'm not doing the cranks according to the plans I purchased at great expense, because I don't like the set up, but looking at all the different crank set ups I've seen for the fifteen or twenty different engines I've looked at on this forum has helped me make up my mind as to how I will set it up.  Just watching the means some of you use to get around problems is motivating, and instructional, and makes me glad I was turned on to this project forum.  I've seen some truly impressive work here, and I've seen some that was done in a matter of just a few days.  I have to say I never imagined such a thing when I was a kid, and had decided to be a mechanic, it was great then just to find a like minded individual, or an older more experienced "man of metal", who had the patience to share some of the experience and skills accumulated.  I wonder, do tax auditors have similar forums where they can "build" model cases of tax fraud, or tax honesty, and enjoy doing for pleasure, what they do for a living?  I don't think there is anything in the world better than being a mechanic.  It means one is a "creator" in his own right, and that is a special feeling.  Mad Jack :nrocks: :beer:

Offline Bernd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3680
  • Country: us
  • 1915 C Cab
    • Kingstone Model Works
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #68 on: March 14, 2010, 11:50:55 AM »
Right on Mad Jack.  :ddb:  :nrocks:  :ddb:  :nrocks:  :ddb:  :nrocks:  :headbang:

Oh ya, can't forget the motivation loation  :beer:  :beer:  :beer:  :beer:

and for you that don't drink  :coffee:
You can't fix "STUPID".

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2010, 11:43:16 AM »
Well, I started on the crankshaft "cheeks" yesterday, decided to use some half inch steel from a disc harrow, already hardened to at least RC 45 or so, got it cut, cleaned both sides and faces, tacked the two pieces together and bored the crank holes, drilled and reamed the alignment holes in the counter weights, and drilled and reamed the crank pin holes, and somehow ended up with nasty crank pin holes six thousandths bigger and uglier than the reamer.  I think I will try to get the still tacked "block" aligned in my vise again, and bore the crank pin holes till they are smooth and clean, and turn the press fit ends a bit larger than three eighths, and if that doesn't work, cut off a couple more pieces of this rusty, nasty hard steel, and do it again, but use my shaper to get everything square and parallel, and see if that works better.  There will be pictures of crank cheeks and maybe a crank tomorrow, if I have to stay up all night.  I think one flute of the drill I used before running the reamer in the crank pin hole is chipped, and made it drill oversized.  I gave up on the pictures last night when I miked the crank pin hole because I didn't want the rust stain from the tear, to ruin the otherwise good looking crank cheeks block.  At least I've got plenty of spare bar stock, a bit old and cranky, but the price was right.  mad jack :coffee: :smart: :bang:

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #70 on: March 16, 2010, 03:24:08 PM »
Well, my good friend and mentor George, who finished his appreticeship before I was born, stopped by yesterday, and we had a nice chat, considering whether to start fresh on the crank cheeks, or do something.  I figured out I looked up the right drill to precede the reamer, but pulled the wrong one out of the index, and that was why the crankpin hole was nasty and oversized.  As usual, George was practical and decisive, and told me, were it him, he'd put the block back in the vise, square it up nice an do a minimum boring with a boring head, since there is plenty of room between the finished bored holes at 0.382, and the crank pin o.d. of 0.562, and I decided if it was good enough for George, who was I to question it.

After boring, cutting the cheeks down to size on my shaper, breathing in the glorious fumes of dark, sulferated, lard cutting oil.

Making smoke, and hot blue chips flying, you've got to love a shaper :clap:

cutting the other side, centering the holes.

Partially finished cheeks, ready for more operations

Another view of the cheeks, showing the steps.
Now to finish the profiling of the cheeks, install the prop shaft, make a rear shaft, and make a crank pin.  All in all, not too bad for a some parts already written off.  To err is human, but to really screw something up takes government management!  ta ta for now, Mad Jack

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2010, 12:17:37 PM »
As I grunt my way through the crank shaft, it seems like a never ending project, in and of its self.  Not satisfied with the design of the designer, but having to wonder if my own ideas are ones already tried and found less than effective, but without experience yet to have a clue.  The crank cheeks are done, the prop shaft is pressed in place, permanently, I hope, and now I have to start making the last two shafts to finish of the Crank Shaft, and move on.  Here's some pictures of the forming of the cheeks, and the machines used.

cutting the retangular blocks to put a taper on both sides, lightening the crankpin end, and leaving the counter weight end heavy

another picture with the cheeks in the shaper vise and the sweet aroma of black sulferated lard cutting oil smoke

having made a stub arbor for them, turning the radius on the counter weights on the lathe

Cheeks finished, with the radius on the crank pin end rough ground, and then finished with a hand file to a good looking contour

the cheeks with the stub arbor used for the radius

The front cheek with the prop shaft pressed in place with half a thousandth press fit, and loctite 609

another shot, and showing the rear cheek, waiting for its shaft to be made and fit.  Once the shaft is finished, assembled, the rear bearing turned, then disassembled, then on to the master connecting rod.  Hopefully I can get the two shafts finished, and all oil passages drilled, and start on that rod soon.  Good day all, mad jack :beer: :coffee:

Offline zeroaxe

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2010, 02:45:38 PM »
Wow, good job as usual. But then again, you know that already, right? :)

I have a question about the shaper. Never known such a machine exist before joining this forum. So..... How does it work? Does it work in/with a swinging action back and forth? Or does the cutter do a full 360 turn? :scratch:

Watching this space..... Cant wait to see this engine running :headbang:

So much to learn, so little time - Author Unknown

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4935
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2010, 04:51:47 PM »
Wow, good job as usual. But then again, you know that already, right? :)

I have a question about the shaper. Never known such a machine exist before joining this forum. So..... How does it work? Does it work in/with a swinging action back and forth? Or does the cutter do a full 360 turn?
:scratch:

Watching this space..... Cant wait to see this engine running :headbang:

Here you go........

But, it`s running backwards.........  ::)

<object style="height: 344px; width: 425px"><param name="movie" value="
"><param name="allowFullScreen"

David D



David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3522
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2010, 05:03:00 PM »
Great bit of work Mad Jack

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire