Author Topic: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"  (Read 78577 times)

Offline zeroaxe

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2010, 05:59:50 PM »
Thanks for the video. I get it now. However, I have yet one more question.... Why would one not use a milling machine instead of the shaper?
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Offline Bernd

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2010, 09:41:11 AM »
That shaper was the fore runner of the mill. But therre are some things you can do with a shaper that you can't on a mill.

Bernd
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Offline Darren

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2010, 11:22:07 AM »
Thanks for the video. I get it now. However, I have yet one more question.... Why would one not use a milling machine instead of the shaper?

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2830.msg30273#msg30273
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2010, 12:19:26 PM »
Thanks 'drilling, I appreciate the video, I could do it if I knew how, but your's shows it so well.  And Bernd, thanks for your statement, in fact, the welding of the raw stock together, and the coprocessing of the cheeks is intended to make it easy to align the crank in its tight place when finished, and a shaper gives a more accurate straight line cut than an equally tight and good working mill, so the sides of the cheeks are exactly parallel and perpedicular to the faces.  The shaper also does faster heavy cutting with cheaper tool bits, and the cutters are easily ground back sharp on the grinding wheel, no special tool sharpening needed as there is for milling cutters.
Having broken the last of my valve seat cutter inserts, broken the valve guide of the head at the same time, I gave up on my work for the day yesterday, and decided to do something I knew would come out all right, and would take up the last bit of my time:  the crank pin.

the crank pin is an inch and three eighths long with the bearing surface .875 long, .5625 diameter, with the stubs turned to match the pin holes in the crank cheeks or webs, turned down to .395 for a moderate press fit.  At least one end must not be permanent, if the crank is ever to be removed, so these two joints, when finished, will be cross pinned with taper pins with the rear one removeable, as it has little power taken off it, only to drive the distributor and air impeller.

the crank pin is tighter fit to the front, prop shaft cheek, as this will have power taken from it

another view of the partially completed crank

another view of the crank to put the pieces into perspective.  If I have time after seeing the doctor today, I may get the rear shaft made, and perhaps at least some of the final oil holes drilled.  The main ones are drilled, it is only the connecting ones, which must be done with the shaft completely together, which have not been drilled yet.  Soon to be working on a master rod, I can hardly wait for that.  The crank shaft makes me happy :beer: mad jack, all the interest keeps me motivated, and I will master taking videos soon, because I'm going to show it running as soon as I can get there!!! :clap: :nrocks: :ddb:  Thanks all!!!

Offline NickG

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2010, 02:30:51 PM »
When I first got into model engineering people told me that shapers were old hat, slow etc and that milling machines had pretty much taken over, infact we cut one up and scrapped it at our club a few years back. But since joining this forum I see more and more people making great use of them. The club still has a small boxford shaper that looks in excellent condition - gets little use.

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Offline zeroaxe

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #80 on: March 19, 2010, 03:01:01 PM »
Thanks for the info on the Shaper/s. I will have a look at the quoted thread later tonight. Clearly, I still have a lot to learn. Unfortunately, due an upcoming move in September, I wont be able to aquire on of these type machines. That is why I am aiming for a smaller X2-type mill.


Good job on that crank. It even looks professionally made!  :clap:
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2010, 06:40:20 PM »
Thanks for the info on the Shaper/s. I will have a look at the quoted thread later tonight. Clearly, I still have a lot to learn. Unfortunately, due an upcoming move in September, I wont be able to aquire on of these type machines. That is why I am aiming for a smaller X2-type mill.


Good job on that crank. It even looks professionally made!  :clap:Thanks for the  compliment, I just want to say, when I first got into machine work, about forty years ago, I was told shapers were obsolete, and I'd never use one as a machinist.  I've worked only part time as a machinist at any one time, having spent twenty as a Marine, however in every machine shop I've ever worked in, part time, there's been at least one shaper, and it was being used every week, if not every day.  The last shop I worked in that wasn't my own, there were half a dozen shapers, and each was set up for a specific use, and all were used commonly.  Nothing cuts a keyway in a large propeller better and faster, nor in a shaft coupling for the other end of a boat shaft.  I use my mill and lathe every day, but would be hard pressed sometimes without the shaper.  Nothing does better dove tails, or gets all the features of a piece dead in line and parallel better, or even matches.  Of course when I went to electronics school for the Marine Corps, I was told not to worry about tube theory, as I would never see a tube in service as a technician, either.  All the equipment I worked on had tubes throughout the two decades I served, and when I retired from the Corps in 97, as head of the same shop I first checked in for my first duty station, I left behind a shop which still had dozens of aircraft systems which were primarily tube driven, with very little solid state parts in them.  I just was given a 12 inch shaper which I will rebuild, that was made before the 1880s, and still has less than five thousandths slop in the ram.  It too will get used often.  I would not want my shop to be without one, having used them all my life.  The sides of my crank cheeks are flatter and straighter than the faces which were milled, and I wish I had used the shaper for the faces, after the fact.  They are less sensitive to hard and soft spots in the work, particularly if the tool edge is kept keen.  Thanks for looking, Mad Jack :beer:

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #82 on: March 21, 2010, 12:01:38 PM »
While not a banner day, yesterday worked out well, I got the rear shaft made twice, wrong the first time, and fitting properly the second.  I failed to take pictures of the turning and all, but I did remember to take pictures after it was done.

the crank shaft, together, almost finished, just lacking the last of the oil passages and the distributor drive gear note the oil groove around the rear main bearing, this is the input for the oil for the main bearing, the master connecting rod and the front main bearing

another view of the bottom side of the crank shaft, note the dark spots in the middle of the edge of each crank cheek - these were machined out of hardened fifty or sixty year old tool steel from a disc cultivator farm implement.  The dark spot is what is left of one of the tack welds I used to keep the two pieces fixed together for all the machine work, the weld on the other end was completely machined away with no sign of it left

note the hole just visible in the cheek weight, a quarter inch hole was reamed through both for aligning the crank as it is pressed together

the crank standing on its webs, showing its size relative to the case, cover, and with a castle nut which will hold the prop on.  Next job is to finish drilling out the final oil passages, drilling the final vent, as this engine vents through the prop shaft, needing only the cross hole drilled for this now, but requiring a fixture to drill holes at a 45 degree angle from the center of the crank pin, through each cheek, and connecting the pin to the rear bearing and oil supply, with the passage from the pin to through the front cheek supplying the front main bearing, and with the oil coming out from around the bearing to pool in the front cavity, and oil the cam and the prop shaft bearing, a ball bearing which will fit in the front cover.  The case has a drain at the bottom for the oil to return to the sump connected to the main case cavity for the return pump to pick up, and return to the tank via a filter.  Next is machining the rear main bearing, as this is where the oil pumps attach, and drive off a gear which will be pinned to the rear shaft against the rear main bearing.  It's hard to choose whether to machine the master rod and slave rods next, after the rear main bearing, or to stay there, and machine the two oil pumps and associated work.  The oil pumps are directly adjacent to the bearing, however the master rod and slave rods appear more interesting, the choice is difficult, but both must be done, so it will be as it will be.  First, a fixture to allow drilling the oil passages through the cheeks of the crank, can't forget that.  Till next time, Mad Jack :clap: :beer:

Offline zeroaxe

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #83 on: March 21, 2010, 12:38:05 PM »


I know what you mean about those dark spots. I am in the process of making a ball turner(actually, I need the turner to turn (concave or convex???  :scratch:) 'pulley' or rather a 'wheel' for a tube bender(NOT a pipe bender!). Anyway, I also have 4 spots like that on the bottom of the disc where I welded a 'stub' to hold in the chuck(this disc was cut at work on a plasma cutter that is not realy accurate!). After one side was faced, I cut the stub off and face that side. No matter how much machining, I cant get rid of those 4 spots!!!* Also, I tried (when the stub was still on) to cut the edge square. The steel is tempered too much(way too hard) there and these carbide tools arent happy with that. Actually, I fuzzed my tools  :(  Live and learn!

I also noticed something else in this pic...... It is not only that black wheel on the table that I am curious about, but also the rest that is attached to it!!! What is it!?




*Side note... I cant remembered if it was here or on the CXhester forum, that I got some advice about this tempered disc. I heated it up with the Oxy/Acethylene torch to HOT(not red hot, but hot ), fired up the BBQ and make some fire. Only this time, it was to roast some metal! I left it at it's own devices in it's ash-bed. Took it the next day and what do you know? Machined tose spots right off! The only thing that remains, is the 4 little 'guide holes' that I had the plasma cutter "punch" in the disc. In after thought, it is not even neccesary because I can mark it out and just have the drill at it!  :bang:
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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #84 on: March 21, 2010, 06:50:36 PM »
Thats a nice looking crankshaft!  :thumbup:

Eric
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #85 on: March 22, 2010, 10:00:42 AM »
Sometimes a person does something that seems reasonable, but makes you want to cry afterwards.  Having been aligning multi-piece crank assemblies for some thirty odd years, I had to check the crank I just assembled, and come to find out the shafts are not aligned, but have as much as seven and eight thousandths eccentricity.  Now is the time I regret using the mill for the crank cheeks, and will go back, make a new set, assuming I don't ruin the shafts, dissassembling the whole thing, and hopefully this time get all faces in the same plane, so there is a reasonable accuracy in the shaft rotation.  For those who have used the method of running shafts through holes in both crank sides, and then cut out the middle section, this is where you win.

with the main bearings on V blocks, and the dial indicator on the ends of the shafts, they are obviously not straight.

Since the shafts were straight when machined, and each "second end" clocked in before turning, it is the crank cheeks causing the eccentricity and must be replaced.  And I thought foolishly, I was ready to move forward, Ha :bang: teach me to measure something I don't want the answer to :bang:  I have to think about this, I will not use the same method to make the crank cheeks, this is definitely about the two faces, inner and outer, being other than parallel.  With Harley engines, I just start hitting the flywheels with a lead hammer, and continue until the shafts are within a thousandth of an inch.  These have already, not succumed to that treatment.  I think I will use the shaper exclusively for the faces, and the mill only for boring the necessary accurate holes.  When using a multi-element face cutter on hardened steel, it tends to deflect as the individual inserts enter and leave the metal, often leaving a wavy pattern on the surface which is always visible, but not always easily measurable for accuracy.  Perhaps if I machine the cheeks parallel and a quarter inch thick, ensuring to my best ability the parallel factor, and then add metal to the counter weight end with rivets, after the crank is proven out straight and round turning.  Time for some thought and some research, it will not do as it is.  Mad Jack :bang: :bang: :bang:

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #86 on: March 22, 2010, 10:13:10 AM »
And to Zeroaxe, that wheel is attached to one of those artsy fartsy motorcycles made out of coat hanger wire, string, beads, and any other old thing, and is art far beyond any artistry I can accomplish, because it has no measuring, no fixed dimensions, and looks good without having to work.  My mom keeps saying I should make such things as they sell well, but I can't see them in the pile of metal I have, all I see is things that require machining and fitting, and can't be just hung together, although other people just don't understand why I can't, after all, I can weld like the artist, and I can bend the wires like he can, and I know what all kinds of cool things look like, I just can't twist them out of coat hangers and odd bits and pieces, but have to make the individual parts, and they have to turn and fit, and the like.

They look good, and sit nice on shelves, but they don't run and make noise, almost like having models!!Mad Jack :headbang:

Offline Bernd

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #87 on: March 22, 2010, 02:41:33 PM »
MAd Jack,

Just a thought here on seperating the shafts from the cheeks. How about grinding or cutting with a slitting saw, a slot on the cheeks by the shafts in line with them. In other words relieve the tension on the hole that holds the shafts in. Kind of like splitting an old bearing to get it out of the hole. I think thar would make it easier to take apart.

Bernd
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #88 on: March 23, 2010, 01:55:50 PM »
Thanks for the suggestion on the disassembly of the crank, as it turned out, it disassembled rather easily, the crank pin punching out with a brass drift, as it was not meant to be permanent, and with the front and rear shafts pressing out with an arbor press with only a little more effort.  Measuring the inner cheek faces showed the three insert face mill left the cheek faces quite other than flat, with as much as two and a half thousandths difference just on opposite sides of the crank pin holes on both cheeks which is exactly what I expected given the way the shafts were out of alignment.

crank disassembled, ready for measuring and checking the shafts

Starting the new blank for the crank cheeks

the delicious aroma of suferated lard cutting oil, as the shaper cuts the steel

a look at the cut from the back side

the blank cut to size, a thousandth taper from one edge to the other, which will be filed to a micrometer measured flat when the cheek is cut to shape, after the holes are properly bored.

The old cheeks sitting on top of the blank, showing plenty of room.

Offline Bernd

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #89 on: March 23, 2010, 03:46:28 PM »
Nice save Mad Jack.  :thumbup:

Looks like a surface grinder would come in mighty handy to get them parallel.

Bernd
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #90 on: March 24, 2010, 09:24:30 AM »
You know Bernd, I was thinking a lot about surface grinders, and the many ways one can approximate one while shaping this flat.  I've read of a method of driving a wheel on a pillar on one of those granite checking blocks, (since I won't drill holes in my surface plate for anything), with the belt kind of loose, and the nine by nine or thereabouts granite block well mounted not to move, and sliding the work under the wheel, after dressing it of course with a makeshift setup using a diamond dressing stone, and a clamped parallel, with the object to grind in the neighborhood of a quarter of a thousandth at a time, and always feeding the work into out-going end of the grinding wheel.  I've got one of those blocks, and about a dozen or two odd motors, I think I might try to jig up a spindle to fit on a pillar that will bolt in the hole already in the block, and see what I can do.  It'd be nice to know the sides are both flat, and are parallel.  The uncut side of the stock is flat and straight right now, even after the cutting by the shaper, so it would just be grinding the side I cut, and only a couple of thousandths, total at worst.  That's a good idea, and I appreciate the suggestion. Let me see what turns up and see if I can get a straight crank and some interesting pictures.  A man can put off a good idea for decades because he finds his own way around a problem, only to finally end up with a situation which requires doing what has been put off for so long.  I could write a book if I could remember all the good ideas and good advice I've been given over the years.  Damned brain cells!!!  cheers :beer: Mad Jack

Offline Bernd

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #91 on: March 24, 2010, 10:01:48 AM »
Sounds like you've got Guy Lautard's Bedside Readers. Can't remember which one it's in but he explains how a friend of his ground his tool block almost square with that method. He also mentioned that .001" was a heavy cut on such a hands on grinder.

Hey, you can always mount a grinder on the end of the shaper and do it that way. I've read about somebody doing that but can't remember where. Ani't getting old fun. Can't remember a dam thing.  :lol:

Bernd
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #92 on: March 25, 2010, 09:49:48 AM »
You know Bernd, I've got all Guy Lautard's readers, and have gotten a lot of good info out of them, and this was one of the tidbits. By the way, Bernd, if you haven't tried his suggestion of stoning off a file, and using the stoned file for lathe filing, you should.  I finally did, after knowing it for ten or fifteen years, and was shocked at the quality improvement and the overall end finish. If you can't do everything in the world, you can learn an awful lot about what you don't get to, by reading.  About three things went wrong yesterday making it a non-profit day all the way, so, rather than tackle the crank, which has me a bit peeved right now, I went ahead and chucked the chunk of bronze to be the rear main bearing, machined the first side, and bored the main bearing and fit it to the rear shaft, which fits quite nicely with just enough room for the oil, and hopefully tight enough to build good oil pressure, when it's running.

Now all I have to do is chuck on the bearing, center it well, and finish it off for thickness, diameter, a shoulder to bear in the case on, and drill mounting holes.  I'm either getting my motorcycle safety inspected, or getting three welding tanks swapped out for full ones, and then finishing the rear bearing today, all depending on the weather and the clock.  At least when you still have hundreds of small parts to make, you don't have to stop on a project, just because what you're working on isn't cooperating.  The problem is I've got to get a straight crank together, so I can get to the master rod, which I expect to be a real pain, and require lots of time and attention.
    Sometimes it's a real pain to have the real work break your machines, and cost you money when all you want to do is get a simple job done.  I'm still playing with the tech reps over the "proper" insert for my valve re-seating machine, which is obsolete now, even though I bought it new, not twenty years ago.  Hopefully today we, meaning me, the tech rep at MSC, the tech rep at Kennametals, and the tech rep at LeBlonde can all get together and come out with the same answer, and the insert chosen, fit my cutter bar.  That's all I've got for today, too much time on the tele yesterday, and not enough successful work. :bang: :bang:Mad Jack

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #93 on: March 26, 2010, 12:27:09 PM »
Every once in a while, strange things happen, and everything falls in place, so I try to let it happen as often as possible.  I took the bearing, half finished, cleaned out all the chips from my three jaw chuck, and chucked the half inch deep bearing in it, and put an indicator in the inside of the bearing.  With only a bit of playing around, I had less than a quarter thousandth of runout even though its a three jaw, so with that, I went to work on the rest of the bearing.

chucked on the bearing spigot turning the o.d.

machining the shoulder the bearing will bear on in the crankcase, a spigot .062 deep

machining the inner thrust bearing to length, .020, for crank shaft end play

front side of bearing, with spigot and thrust bearing showing

back side of bearing, with half an inch of bearing sticking out, for the oil pump to mount over, and feed the crank through.  There are about thirty or so holes which must be drilled for mounting the bearing in the crankcase, holes which will mount the oil pump, and holes which will be oil galleries, as well as bearing pivot holes for the oil pump shafts for both a pressure and a scavenge pump, all of which require the oil pump made, and fit to keep the oil going in its proper path.  All of this must be done before any more can be done to the actual bearing, so I am left with building the oil pump, and finishing the bearing arangement, or finishing the crank properly, and then moving on with the oil pump.  Either way, my next session will be a long and tedious one requiring accurate mating of the work to what is done.  Both require the other as the oil pump requires the drive gear set up on the rear shaft, and the crank shaft requires the oil pump set up, that the gear can be set up properly.  Almost as if it were one big shaft job.  Well, it should be fun, Mad Jack

Offline sbwhart

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #94 on: March 26, 2010, 12:38:54 PM »
Coming along nicely Jack lovely work.

I like the shaper smoke signals:- what was the message  :D

Have fun

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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #95 on: March 27, 2010, 11:50:46 AM »
Stew, when I was a small boy, we lived in Barcelona, Spain for about a year, and then in Naples Italy, for a couple more, and reconstruction from after the war was still going on, but with pre-war equipment in a large part.  Road rollers will always be "steam rollers" to me, bucket shovels will always be "steam shovels", and the smooth, steady strokes of a shaper will always be the epitome of machining a straight line, or the cutting out of a channel, and it always goes with the smell of smoking suferated lard oil, which has been with me since I was two or three.  The smoke signal is that of a man, relaxed in his own shop, enjoying properly working machinery, making chips that won't be cursed, and says "all is well with the world", at least inside the metal sides of my shop, and to hell with the world outside it.  If I could get my wife to enjoy that smell and replace the tobacco smell she loves with it, we could live in my shop, and only leave for groceries and the like.  Alas, she enjoys her smokes, she appreciates the finished products of the shop, and she enjoys that broken things can be fixed, but she won't replace the smokes with the appreciation of the smell of sulfer and lard burning slowly.  There are things about Europe I will always miss, much as I love the different ways of America, and I get to enjoy some of them on this project site, interacting with people from places I haven't visited in almost fifty years in some cases.  The smoke signals are a "thanks" for the appreciation, and a "welcome to my shop", for all who wish to look in.  I put the smoke pictures in on purpose, a shaper doesn't look right without smoke coming off the tool.  Mad Jack :thumbup:

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #96 on: April 08, 2010, 11:03:13 AM »
With some machine problems interfering with work, I had to change directions, so I'm working on other parts of the engine, since they all have to be made, for it to be complete.
While I did use a long center drill to get past the clamping bolt, I neglected to get a photo of it, so pretend there is one in between this comment and the next.
Using a long center drill to get past the clamping bolt, and center drill the mounting holes for the bearing.

drilling out the mount holes to size for their screws

drilling some of the other twenty odd holes which will hold the oil pump and allow the oil to move where it needs to go.  The rear main bearing is complete except for some work which must be done with the oil pump for bearing alignment reasons, and for feeds and returns to be properly aligned.

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2010, 12:09:36 PM »
Having made the rear main bearing so the whole crankshaft could be fitted and tested, I found it to be no where close to straight, and took it out, put it in some V blocks, and put an indicator on it.  With more than fifteen thousandths of wobble on the end of the shafts with the bearings in the V blocks, I did some careful measuring and found the sides of my "crank cheeks" were by no means parallel, but because of cutting them out of hard steel, I had hills and valleys keeping any of the shaft shoulders from seating properly.  I've sat on this for a couple weeks, looked at all the parts laid out, considered all the choices, and decided to make a new crank from scratch, as every part of the old crank has been pushed and prodded, and is no longer trustworthy.

cutting the steel blank to the thickness for the crank pin to press into, while keeping the full half inch of thickness for counter weight

Another shot of the shaper, thinning the stock.  Finished piece is flat within half a thousandth over the three inches of width.

I've already thinned the one side of the plate for the crank pin clearance, and this is reaming out the crankpin hole, using the DRO so the two plates are identical after I cut the plate in half.

The old crank cheeks above, with the new ones, pinned together for finishing the outer contour.

Another perspective of the new crank cheeks, now, on to the new shafts.

Offline Darren

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2010, 03:10:00 PM »
Nice to see a shaper being used  :clap: Something about them isn't there ...


I would desperately like one of those toolholders for my shaper if anyone has one spare ....
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
« Reply #99 on: April 27, 2010, 07:55:07 AM »
Nice to see a shaper being used  :clap: Something about them isn't there ...


I would desperately like one of those toolholders for my shaper if anyone has one spare ....
Hi Darren, I've personally found tooling for shapers is getting extremely hard to find, and end up resorting to making it.  A tool holder like the one I'm using can be fabricated out of a bar and a piece of round stock, suitably bored for essentially a shoulder bolt, with a hole drilled and filed square, and the bar stock left with a hole bored to fit the larger diameter holding the tool, and a smaller hole left for the bolt to stick through.  The holder I have has divisions allowing I think eight positions, but a home made one would essentially be infinite in the angles.  I know I flip this holder around front to back depending on whether I'm using the vise perpendicular to the cut of the shaper, or if it's rotated so the jaw is linear to the line of the cut, to move the tool bit an inch and a quarter or so, to make up for where the vise is on the table.  I hope that gives another line of thinking for that tool. mad jack