Author Topic: 'Poppin' Flame Licker  (Read 78368 times)

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #100 on: January 12, 2011, 08:46:32 AM »
Hi Nick, I took another look and I don't see where it's "not well made", it all looks pretty well finished, square, smooth where it's supposed to be, all in all, I think it looks well made, at least from here.  With regard to that kind of boring, I usually set up the tool bit loose in the bar, put the bar down till the bit's inside the bore, push it with a scribe or something to touch off, then withdraw the bar, and nudge the bit to put on just enough to be sure I'm getting a cut.  Then, after the cut's finished, I know where I am exactly by measuring, and can divvy up the remainder in however many cuts I think are needed.
    All in all, I think the engine is looking right nice, and should turn out to be a good runner, once you've got er finished.  Just looking at the photos of your frame make me want to dive in and build a poppin, you really did a nice job on it, and the finish looks good, and no one's looking at the bore of the frame, and if they do, you can always go back and touch it up, it's just looks, not functionally important.  Just sitting somewhere, the poppin's a good looking engine all in its self. :beer: mad jack

Offline AdeV

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #101 on: January 12, 2011, 10:12:38 AM »
I have to agree with Jack - I think it looks great! And some of the solutions you've found to cutting various parts of that base were quite inspired.

I can't wait to see the next installment, forget drinking & mates, get your ar*e back in that workshop!  :poke:  :D

Cheers!
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Offline jim

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #102 on: January 12, 2011, 11:39:39 AM »
really looking good now!

if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #103 on: January 12, 2011, 01:11:50 PM »
I read "not particularly well made", earlier on. When no one else had posted.

I had to wait to see if anyone else could see what I couldn't.....  :scratch:

They can't! There's nowt wrong wi' that, Nick!  :thumbup:

Carry on. Yer doing just fine!  :D

David D
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Offline NickG

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #104 on: January 12, 2011, 06:16:08 PM »
Thanks for the encouragement guys, it's just I thought I was doing a really good job on it before I came back to it but when I've come to assemble the bits I've made I realise they aren't as good as I thought! I hope I can get it working and I'll be happy but I still have a long way to go and a lot to learn.

I must admit the engine is a nice design and that frame is an interesting machining job - not too difficult just quite time consuming but it makes a better job of it being out of the solid rather than 3 or 4 seperate bits.

 :lol: Ade, funnily enough I've made quite a radical new years resolution - because I don't get out much these days I found it increasingly more difficult to have afew pints without waking up with a bad head, so I decided I'd stop drinking! Not had an alcoholic drink since 30th December and know I'll feel better for it in the morning. Still going to pub just to get out and do something but there are a couple of us ordering orange squash much to the barmaids amusement! My mate just had too much over christmas I think - I am just thinking what's the point in having a couple of pints if it makes me feel like that - it doesn't really do a lot for me! So I could have safely gone into the garage tonight but was a bit too late!

Nick




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Offline NickG

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #105 on: January 13, 2011, 06:33:59 PM »
Got done what I planned tonight. Made the flywheel bosses, nuts and washer. Started off really slowly, didn't have material to hand, had to find right sized drills, swapping tools around etc! I did start taking pics of machining operations but then realised they were all straight forward, nothing people haven't seen 1 million times before so stopped to get on with it.

Here are the finished components:



and assembled onto the engine:



The crank is very free running, those two flywheels combined are actually quite heavy. 1 of the flywheels is spot on but the other has a very slight wobble for some reason!  :doh: Nothing too bad though.

Still lots of parts to make yet, wish I'd never started making two of them! I think I've said before I won't make 2 of anything again!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #106 on: January 14, 2011, 10:10:50 AM »
Hi Nick, you look like you're moving right along, and the work looks good.  The picture of those two flywheels on the shaft for a five eighths in bore is what inspired my own flywheel of rather large proportions, but having seen several "poppin's" which ran very well as such, I have confidence in them and my own.  While you lament having started two, I'm lamenting not having started five or six Duclos flame suckers, after seeing Arnold's success with a cast iron cylinder, and having them as presents.  It may be a bit of a pain now, but finishing two at a time will be welcomed at the end, particularly if you're like me and have to make two of most parts anyway, just to get one "just right".  You get those pistons right for those cylinders, and good vacuum on them, and you will be glad to have two good runners at the same time.  I have to turn around and start my little Duclos all the time to re-motivate me, when the one I'm working on isn't cooperating very much.  You're right close to getting things running, and when they do, you will be happy you perservered.  You're making me wish I'd jumped to the "poppin" rather than starting off with a random idea as I'm ready to run, but not, and now having to troubleshoot.  You'll be done before you know it  :poke: mad jack

Offline NickG

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2011, 12:11:07 PM »
Jack, you're right, I think with a relatively short and small power stroke they need a decent flywheel. I think it's quite important to have the weight in the right place too as we have done, i.e. decent moment of inertia but keeping the mass down. My Jan Ridders flame licker has quite a large flywheel - an old casting I had lying around, and although it's a much less compact engine, the cylinder isn't that much bigger than poppin - only 19mm bore (think it's supposed to be 18 but I overshot) and remember a lot of the length in that cylinder is taken up by the internal valve.

With regards to doing the two at a time I thought it was going pretty well and it wasn't too tedious but when I've picked it back up, I can't think of anything worse than repeating things for some reason, even when it's fresh in my mind and the set up / material is there. It would make sense but I was not enjoying it!

I was pulling my hair out with the Jan Ridders version trouble shooting and it was only through people's help and advice on these forums that I got there in the end. I knew people had trouble with the internal valve design and was so intrigued by poppin seeing so many sucessful versions of that, it was then that I had to try it to see what the difference was. There are quite few parts to poppin, probably the most complex thing I've made so far.

Keep plugging logically away and am confident you'll get there with yours but I know what you mean, it is a frustrating time. Poppin will also be about the only thing I've followed somebody elses design entirely on (well almost entirely!) so I wanted to see if I was capable of doing that!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline arnoldb

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2011, 12:42:49 PM »
 :thumbup: Looking more and more like an engine Nick - keep at it!

Regards, Arnold

Offline sbwhart

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2011, 12:52:03 PM »
As Arnold said Nick looking like a real engine  :headbang: thats what so nice about flame lickers they do look the part.

Stew
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Offline NickG

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #110 on: January 17, 2011, 09:27:22 AM »
I decided I'd be a good husband and stay in with the wife on Friday night - actually I was knackered but she doesn't need to know that!  :lol:

Started making the valve rod. This was just a bit of 1/16" stainless rod with a thread on each end. The thread, unfortunately had to be 10ba (bit small for my liking). 1/16" is too small for my lathe chuck to grip so I had a cunning plan, or at least I thought I did... hold it in the pin chuck:



but this didn't really get a good enough grip. The collet was just too big so it slipped. So put the drill chuck in the headstock:



Worked this time. My new Soba 10ba die from the set I got for christmas didn't seem to be working very well though so used an old presto one and that worked!

Using 10ba also meant that I didn't have any nuts. I found one then had to drill another out that was even smaller!



Tapped in vice as couldn't feel what was happening in lathe:



The next thing to make was the valve rocker shaft. This was from 1/8" silver steel. First had to turn ends down for 8ba:



Then cut the threads:



Then had to think of a novel way to clamp in the vice level - this is the heath robinson way I came up with, rested on a parallel and used a bit of packing in the jaw to grip. Here I am centre drilling:



Seemed to work reasonably well, drilled out to tapping size and started tapping:



I was just thinking, this tapping lark in the milling machine is ok as long as use a low speed and oil and keep winding in and out... then ping!!!



I don't really know what I was thinking, 10ba in silver steel under power? Really?! I started it off with the taper ok so I should have taken it out at that point to finish by hand but no, I had counted my chickens so to speak!

Luckily I managed to punch the tap out with a bit I ground off the end of the tapping drill. I thought I had a pic but can't find it. I had actually drilled it a size smaller to attempt to get a tighter fit so that won't of helped, but it helped save it. It had only tapped a couple of threads so I opened it up to the proper size and tapped again, I hasten to add in the vice this time!



This was before de-burring:



Assembled with rod and nuts:



I then made the spring as was running out of time, that was nice and easy:



There's the assembly with the spring:



Forgot to mention that this was during the day on Saturday afternoon, I was allowed into the workshop for staying in the night before! The intention was to go back in later that night after watching a bit of silly sat night TV but I was too tired and only managed a bit. Did the valve shaft bushes.

Drilling the rod. Think it's phosphur bronze but not sure, it came off a set of old scientific scales I think. It's sort of coppery and seems soft to turn? Anyway, it's the same stuff I used for my bushes on the ridders flame gulper.



Reaming 1/8" with my other christmas pressie:



Turning down to size. I wanted a light press fit, if too heavy it would crush due to thin wall and my 1/8" dia would be no more!



Finally parting off:



I thought the parting off was going badly as it kept leaving a pip (even though it was dead on centre) but luckily the pip just crumbled away and it was ok after a couple of twists by had with a countersink:



Then I tried the shaft in it and it was too tight! Then I remembered what Bogs told me about hand reamers having a longer tapered section, but I had reamed it blind so put it back in the lathe and reamed right through:



Another thing I noticed was that despite me being careful and using the graduated dial on top slide to make sure I parted off the right amount, it was coming out over size. I wasn't too concerned about this but when I started looking at the drawing, it was critical, the shoulder had to be 0.025" so that the shaft would protrude slightly at each end so I had to skim this down. Here is the finished bush:



Once I'd done the same for the other one, I'd had enough and quit while I was ahead. I just pressed the bushes in with a dab of loctite.

On Sunday I was allowed in the workshop during the day again ... what's going on?  :scratch: !

So I set about making the cam(s). These are 1" diameter and 0.047" thick. I decided the best way would be to turn a bar to 1", drill, ream and part off. I had a little short length of cast iron I thought would be good as I know it's easy to part!

Facing off:



Turning to size:



Centre drilling:



opening up:



by the way, what do you leave on there to ream? Some people say make the reamer work, some people say just a smidgin ... I drilled 7.5mm for the 5/15" reamer I think and it seemed about right?

Reaming:



Then i set my parting tool up, looking from this angle I quickly realised you don't need to have much sticking out:



Parting off, used the centre as I wasn't gripping on much so remembered the advice from last time:



Here are the two blanks. One turned out 0.049" and the other 0.045" - oh well, think it'll do though!



The radii on the bottom of the cam was 0.300" so I set about making 2 filing buttons of 0.600" diameter with a 5/16" hole through the same. I took photos but just realised the entire operation was exactly the same as the cams, just from steel and a bit thicker! The only thing new was that it was the first time I've sucessfully parted steel  :ddb:



I should have mentioned that I luckily remembered about the arbor I'd made for the flywheels which was the right diameter to hold it. With a bit of foresight, the od of this could have been made the same thereby incorporating filing buttons, but I had made mine from hex bar to index for the flywheel holes.

Here are the blanks mounted on the arbor with filing buttons and marked:



I thought, that looks wrong some how, and another look at the drawing confirmed that it was. The 110 degrees duration is shown in a funny way, so I interpreted what it meant and re-marked. You probably can't see it very well.



I thought I had a couple more photos but I can't find them. Anyway, I just hacksawed most of it away with junior hacksaw and filed the rest. The filing buttons didn't really work as they were just steel and not hardened but were there as a visual guide I suppose! I fear I may have taken a bit too much off so not sure whether the valve will be open long enough. Will see.



Sorry, it's a long post this ... need to update more frequently in future in bite sized chunks!

Next was the roller, pin and arm in that order.

The roller was from a bit of stainless steel:

Facing:



Turning to size:



Drilling:



I decided I'd have to grind a drill flat to square out the counter bore for the pin as didn't have a slot drill or end mill small enough:



Drilled with right sized drill first:



Then flat drill before parting off:



I tried to be clever when parting to give it the 1/64" step which sort of worked but I did my calcs wrong and it ended up too long anyway. Hadn't read drawing properly and added 1/64" to overall length. To that had to come off. Needed to ream it through anyway though:



Here are a couple of pics of the finished roller:





Parting the stainless was worse than the mild steel - tended to chatter a bit, prob had speed or feed wrong.

Onto the pin, simple turning job but had to be the right dimensions again.

Facing:



Turning bearing surface:



Turning pin:



Parting:



Finished:



Assembled into roller:



Now the arm, which would complete the whole valve assembly. I was going to use some 1/4" square bar, drill the holes and try to split it giving me 2 components but I decided that was destined to fail and I was making hard work of this. So I routed around and found some rusty steel sheet just the right thickness. Had a bit of straightening to do then cut a bit off.

Squared up in milling machine:



Here it is:



Marked it up:



Cut off and squared it up again:



Then had to re-mark it:



Drilled holes:



Then, by eye put at an angle in vice to mill angled sides. I didn't just do it willy nilly but thought I'd align the centre of the big hole and the bottom of little hole with the top of the vice jaw which would give the required offset.



After a bit of filing, it worked pretty well:



Then assembled the pin and roller onto it:



The idea was to peen over the pin, but without a ball pein hammer or rivet snap I had to use a nail punch, which worked well enough. I was really impressed with the roller, it spins over almost like a ball race but a bit looser. Probably due to the relatively hard metals it's made of.

That's about as far as I've got. Still on track, just the piston, rod & big end, burner and wooden base to complete. I've decided against the metal base (again!). I was going to make a brass one and machine turn it but I decided you can only see 3/16" all around so it's not worth it and it's pointless to boot!

Here are a few snaps of the assembled engine so far. What a fiddly job that was  :lol: shame it's got to come back to bits!  :doh:















Getting nearer to the elusive finishing line!

Nick




Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline saw

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #111 on: January 17, 2011, 09:34:19 AM »
Nice
 :nrocks:
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #112 on: January 17, 2011, 10:53:24 AM »
"Proper Job!"   :clap:   :thumbup:

David D
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Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline jim

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #113 on: January 17, 2011, 10:58:35 AM »
that looks so much better than mine!!!

can't wait to see it run!
if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #114 on: January 17, 2011, 01:28:26 PM »
That is turning out to be a great engine. Some nice looking work there!

Eric
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Offline NickG

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #115 on: January 18, 2011, 03:03:02 PM »
Thanks guys,

I got a bit more done last night and today but the last few bits are taking a lot longer than I expected so slightly behind schedule. Going to cinema tonight so won't be making any further progress tonight!

I started work on the piston with the graphite kindly donated by Ade.

I sawed a chunk off and just gripped it in the 3 jaw - would have been better in the 4 jaw but as long as it held, the cutting forces are very low so I was able to turn myself a new datum to work from.

Faced the end:



Then turned a length any old diameter to grip on:



Flipped it around, faced:



Then started turning down to size:



Now taking the tiniest finishing cuts, something like 1/4 of a thou but easy to do with this material:



Across into the milling machine to mill the slot for the con-rod. When I was turning the datum, it dawned on me to stop short and it would give me something to rest on and keep square in the milling vice. I just cut to the full depth using a 1/8" end mill. I widened the slot slightly though by a few thou as I'm using 1/8" silver steel for the con rod.



Flipped on its side to drill hole for gudgeon pin. I've drilled it for a push fit in there so it stays in place and the con rod will have the clearance hole. I wasn't sure whether the graphite would wear, probably not but anyway, that's what I've done.



Back into the lathe to part off:



Because it's quite brittle it snapped with about a 3/16" pip so I had to put it back into the chuck to face off with some aluminium to protect it:



There's the finished piston with the gudgeon pin:



Next was the conrod big end. This is made up from a couple of bits of brass fastened together then drilled so it can split and be fastened to the crank. The problem was, I didn't have any 3/16" square brass, so I would have to turn some 3/8" down (smallest my 4 jaw can cope with) and then mill the square down to 3/16". This is what took much longer than it should have given the right material.

Facing the 3/8" brass:



Drilling for the 1/8" rod:



Turning down to size:



Over to the mill to whittle down to 3/16"



And the other side:



Centre drilling for pin:



and drilling through:



Sawing off the parent stock:



facing to length:



It was supposed to have a 1/16" rivet in it but as I said before, I didn't have a rivet snap so I just filed it off flush, made a bit of a mess but it's ok I guess:



The other part of the big end has a slot milled into it and fits snugly over the last bit like a clasp (think that's the word!) So this is 3/16" wide to fit between the crank webs and 5/15" deep.

Squaring up the brass:



Milling down to 5/16":



and 3/16" in the other plane:



Squaring the other end so I can stand upright to mill the slot:



Marked up and ready to mill and drill:



Drilling for the pinch bolt - notice my mistake here, I'd already centre drilled it.



Milling the slot - I nearly made a booboo here, I used the graduations on the handwheel to get the width - which didn't work but luckily I had a small cut on and I noticed soon enough. So I just went to my markings my eye then measured each side and the bit it slots over and took appropriate amounts off.





This is what I probably should have done before, don't know why I didn't drill it in one sitting. I had to re-position and pick up the original hole:



Opening up the top prong for 8ba clearance:



and tapping the bottom prong:



At this point I thought I'd finished, but I still need to drill the holes for the crank journal and gudgeon pin and cut the rod to length - just minor points!! I was worried before about getting those two holes parallel but of course because I haven't done either it will be easy, just do it at the same setting.



After that, the engine is technically complete, I just need a base and a burner - which begs the question, do I try it by lashing it together before I have made those, hold the camera with my teeth, burner in one hand and other hand to flip the flywheel!  :lol:

Nick





« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 03:05:14 PM by NickG »
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline winklmj

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #116 on: January 18, 2011, 03:09:48 PM »
Looks great. Can't wait to see it running.
Mike

Offline saw

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #117 on: January 18, 2011, 04:27:52 PM »
Yes I like..  :ddb:
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #118 on: January 19, 2011, 02:18:54 AM »

After that, the engine is technically complete, I just need a base and a burner - which begs the question, do I try it by lashing it together before I have made those, hold the camera with my teeth, burner in one hand and other hand to flip the flywheel!  :lol:

Nick

What a daft question Nick!  :bugeye:     Of course you do!  ::)

A small tripod might help, by steadying the camera.......  :thumbup:

 :lol:    :lol:    :lol:    :lol:

 :clap: :clap: :thumbup:

David D
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Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #119 on: January 19, 2011, 02:51:28 AM »
This is looking really well now Nick, and I am sure you will have it running in no time.

Do what I did when I made my vid for the swing up threading tool, stick the camera onto a mag base, it only took a few minutes to make up a plate to get the two married together.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2323.msg25332#msg25332


John
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #120 on: January 19, 2011, 03:11:00 AM »
This is looking really well now Nick, and I am sure you will have it running in no time.

Do what I did when I made my vid for the swing up threading tool, stick the camera onto a mag base, it only took a few minutes to make up a plate to get the two married together.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2323.msg25332#msg25332


John


Yep thats what I did having seen Johns works a treat great for taking stills as well removes camera shake.

Engine looking good Nick  :headbang: now lets see you whip it :whip: into life.

Stew
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Offline NickG

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #121 on: January 19, 2011, 06:23:15 AM »
Thanks lads, forgot to mention I have to saw it from the stock adn face to length too! I didn't notice that optical illusion on the last photo before, it looks like there's a raised hump but actually it's just the pattern made by the end mill when I was trying to touch on! Or is that just my eyes?!

Great idea for the camera John, will definitely get onto that. I made a tripod for a uni project once (I say I, it was supposed to be a group project but I was the only one interested it getting my hands dirty!) have no idea where it is now, I remember robbing bits of metal off it at some point though!

It will be more useful in the workshop to mount it on the mag base though.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline AdeV

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #122 on: January 19, 2011, 10:47:01 AM »
Nick, that's starting to look like a bought one ;)

Nice work, glad the graphite machined OK. Just a thought, is it light enough for this application? It looks like the piston is still quite a solid lump, I wonder if you don't need to machine a bit more out of it to feather-weight it a bit?

Cheers!
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Offline NickG

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #123 on: January 19, 2011, 11:21:39 AM »
Hi Ade, thanks and thanks again for the graphite.

Not sure, you're right it does look quite solid, I was wondering about that as it is the only deviation I've made from the plans. The cast iron piston I made like that for the Jan Ridders flame gulper didn't work! But I thought a really thin wall with the graphite piston would be unnecessary as it's a lot lighter - that was my thinking anyway. Just had a quick look on tinternet and found the following:

Graphite is approx 2.09 - 2.23g/cm^3

Cast iron is approx  6.8 - 7.8g/cm^3

So cast iron is pretty much 3 x the density, I could model the two to check the weight but remember with the cast iron piston you've also got the yoke and screw so hopefully I should be ok for weight. I'm not sure whether I've got the fit loose enough but it seems to slide easily, drops through most of bore under it's own weight but seems a good seal so fingers crossed! I think it will quickly wear to where it needs to be.

The bit I'm more worried about than anything else is the big end. It doesn't have a ball race as per how Jim modified his, just a plain brass bearing. Think it will be the highest source of friction on mine. The roller rubbing on flywheel or flywheel on uprights could be another issue but I can mess around with washers etc to minimise anything like that.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline arnoldb

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Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #124 on: January 19, 2011, 12:08:27 PM »
Well, you're cracking right along now Nick  :thumbup:

I'll openly admit I'm way too chicken to try and run those small taps under power!

 :beer:, Arnold