Author Topic: 'Poppin' Flame Licker  (Read 77671 times)

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2010, 03:35:25 AM »
Thanks again for the support guys.

Madjack, I admire your patience and skill building your engine.

The warm bed and dvd was again too tempting last night but I intend to make the most of the weekend. I finish at midday on fridays so shouldn't be as tired in the evening.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2010, 05:31:51 PM »
A little more progress - not as much as I would of liked, but a little.

I got the crankshafts just about done.

I thought I'd be clever and try making a 'D' bit out of a bit of the silver steel that would become the crankshaft - that way I could accurately size the holes in the crank webs etc and flywheel bosses.

Here it is:



Later found out that didn't work though, think I must have milled just too much off as the D part went into the hole I had drilled too easily. So I used a number drill instead.

Milling a square end on the bar:



Milling down to correct thickness:


Setup for milling webs to length - this didn't work so had to do 1 at a time and mill across the vice at same height setting in end:


Setup for drilling holes:


Pair of cranks with loctite curing before I cut out centre section of main shaft:




Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Dean W

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 571
  • My kingdom for a lathe!
    • Projects web pages
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2010, 12:09:14 AM »
Those cranks are looking really good, Nick.
 
Suit yourself about the write up length, and number of pics.  We all like to see and read what each other is doing, but if it's getting in the way of the guy doing the work, well, you don't want it to turn into a chore.
I take a lot of pics hoping to share, but to tell the truth, I would do it anyway, even if no one else was looking.  For me, pics are a good reference, especially if I've forgotten how I did some tricky setup in the past.

Probably best to just keep our projects enjoyable in what ever manner works for us.

Thanks again for all your pictures and narrative.

Dean
Dean W.

Shop Projects:
http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/projects.html

Praise the Lord and pass the Carbide!

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2010, 04:42:41 AM »
Thanks Dean,

I didn't really have much to report on these to be honest, it was simple milling and drilling with the exception of some of my work holding methods being dodgy and not working.

I agree, the forum is brilliant and everything is good reference material to go into a large database - i've found peoples posts from years ago useful. Like you say, it can't turn into a chore though - then it's not worth doing. If I do find anything useful I come across like the hex indexing thing I will write a bit more about it. I tend to try to keep things as simple as possible to suit my limited skills!  :lol:

I don't think I'll be trying to make 2-offs of anything in future either, that has definitely made it less enjoyable for me! I think when I've finished this project I need a good clean up of the shop, a review of what I have and what tooling etc. I might like to help me in the future. I may be able to pick some stuff up at the Model Engineering show that's coming up in May in the UK.

I've still got quite a long list of projects which I intend to follow through - things I really want to make and have always wanted to, for example just to say yep, I've done that - I can make an internal combustion engine from scratch! These forums have definitely helped me in my quest, since I started looking / posting on these I've had the advice and support to help me make a working stirling engine and a working flame gulper which I may not have been able to do otherwise.

again, thanks for the support, interest and advice guys.

Nick

Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2010, 04:44:26 AM »
PS, I forgot to mention - I will try making a D bit again at some point, I just need to pay more attention to the amount milled off. I just touched on and used the quill dro but that obviously wasn't accurate enough and took too much off or something.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline jim

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • Country: 00
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2010, 08:44:59 AM »
This project is taking me ages,

Dont lose heart, this is more about the journey than the destination. If all we were interested in was just the end result we'd just go out and buy the completed model. But by taking however long as the project needs, and our own personal circumstances allow, we get the satisfaction from beating poor defensless bits of metal crafting and sculpting raw stock into working parts of a project.

So what's the rush, you know you are just going to start on another project as soon as you finish this one, so just enjoy the journey with the rest of us :thumbup:


Tim

very true!
my own poppin has been on hold for 2 months, its going to b another month before i get chance to carry on with it!
if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2010, 10:35:29 AM »
Jim, I know the feeling, it's frustrating. I was hoping to get this done by the end of March but I don't want to end up rushing and spoiling them though so will have to take my time I think. I keep jumping around to different parts to keep interest too. There doesn't seem to be any particular order you have to make things in for this engine which is good.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2010, 06:24:29 PM »
Started on the frames tonight, or standard as the designer calls it. I bought a length of 1" x 2" aluminium for this. The idea is supposed to be to machine the profile on the end of the bar sticking out of the vice, but my vice doesn't grip when at it's maximum opening - I remembered having problems with my cylinder for the last flame gulper.

So I had to flycut the material down a bit first:

 First time I’d really flycut anything and it went well, or at least I thought it had but when I measured it, the bar was about 20 thou different end to end. The milling machine is cutting on a taper  – which means either the vice is not made properly, or the milling machine is not made properly – I’m guessing the milling machine. When I got my machine 2 of us bought the same one to get a discount, I know the other guy had a problem with his table being tapered. Will have to check mine now.

I could now remove the jaws from the vice to get a bit better grip (faulty vice) and grip to mill end square:


Next I milled the bit off the end leaving a radius, this took a while, I was taking cuts of around 3/32 – 1/8”:


I then decided to mark the thing up as it was a pain trying to use the graduated dials – and I know they are not that accurate, really need some sort of DRO setup:


I then started milling the other section out to leave the 2 rads, but this is as far as I got:


When I went to mill along, the metal moved in the vice again – no damage done but just no grip.
Whipped the end plate off the vice and found this:


The casting has cracked at some point leaving only half a nut for the screw to screw into – hence at wide openings if you try to get a decent tightness, there is enough play in the bearing to let the screw ride up on the threads and jump out of mesh. Don’t think this will be particularly easy to fix but will have to have a look. I don’t think it’s something that’s just happened as the broken bit is nowhere to be seen. Probably always been like this, I’ve just been getting away with it for small openings as the nut is engaged closer to the bearing, hence there isn’t enough play to let it ride up and jump out of mesh with the screw.

So probably on the look out for a new vice now as not too hopeful of being able to repair this one – shame as it is, or at least was a good vice – Elliot.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2010, 02:32:57 AM »
Nice work Nick

You could repair the vice by completely drilling out the damaged thread and fitting a screwed bush, my home made vice is made this way with a brass bush, I'll post you a pic later.

The taper you're getting could be down to the vice as well, as you tighten up the moving jaw could be flexing up.

Try running a clock down the table then grip a bar you know is parallel in the vice and run a clock down that as well.

Hope this helps

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline jim

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • Country: 00
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2010, 02:37:48 AM »
thats bad, but, it could have been worse!

another project to fix the vice!
if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #60 on: March 10, 2010, 05:28:19 AM »
Thanks Stew, I will try clocking table and vice. You're right it might be pushing up as when I rest something on parallels and tighten up the parallel sometimes becomes looser - exactly what you said.

I don't know how I would attach the bush at the moment, I may have to mill a flat and make a square brass block with thread in it that bolts down to the vice? Will have to get it properly to bits to see.

That's the only problem Jim  - I don't want to be spending time repairing things but if it saves £60 and a good vice it might have to be done. That £60 could go towards a rotary table or QCTP!

Will strip down vice tonight so I can see what it's like then decide whether or not to attempt a repair!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #61 on: March 10, 2010, 05:50:17 AM »
Her we go Nick my vice pics showing the brass nut





The end nearest the moving jaw has a flange on it to take the thrust.

Your next problem is the thread size if its not a standard size you can get a tap for you'll have to screw cut it.

Hope this helps

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #62 on: March 10, 2010, 12:22:15 PM »
A little more progress - not as much as I would of liked, but a little.

I got the crankshafts just about done.

I thought I'd be clever and try making a 'D' bit out of a bit of the silver steel that would become the crankshaft - that way I could accurately size the holes in the crank webs etc and flywheel bosses.

Here it is:



Later found out that didn't work though, think I must have milled just too much off as the D part went into the hole I had drilled too easily. So I used a number drill instead.

Milling a square end on the bar:



Milling down to correct thickness:


Setup for milling webs to length - this didn't work so had to do 1 at a time and mill across the vice at same height setting in end:


Setup for drilling holes:


Pair of cranks with loctite curing before I cut out centre section of main shaft:





Hi Nick, just a thought, if you want to mill your multiple pieces at one time, and have it work out, try putting a piece of paper between the movable jaw and the pieces, and then set them up square.  The paper will compress, and equalize the pressure on the four bars, and they will not move.  Even rather rough bars can be machined at the same time if you use a heavy brown paper rather than light notebook paper, as I would with pieces all cut out of one bar that is fairly smooth in finish.  For what its worth, mad jack :beer:

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #63 on: March 10, 2010, 01:37:07 PM »
Stew,

Thanks for that - I think I will have to screw cut as I think it's a square ish thread. I was going to investigate further tonight but the wife has just informed me it's stay in, film night tonight!  :doh: think that was my idea so I can't disagree!

Madjack, thanks for that tip - i've tried to mill like that on a couple of occasions now without success. Hopefully the little paper trick should work - it sounds logical.

Nick
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 01:43:37 PM by NickG »
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2010, 12:04:35 PM »
PS, I forgot to mention - I will try making a D bit again at some point, I just need to pay more attention to the amount milled off. I just touched on and used the quill dro but that obviously wasn't accurate enough and took too much off or something.

Nick
Hi Nick, with regard to D bits, they are best made just as you describe, touching off and then using the down feed read out, however stop short of half and leave at least four or five thousandths for hand finishing, on a stone and lapping, and you can mic it out as you are doing the final lap, hopefully on a diamond lap.  I've found a proper D bit gives a more accurate hole size than even a comercial reamer, unless you are absolutely perfect in your handling of the comercial reamer.  No matter where it is, a single cutting edge always is more accurate than multiple cutting edges, it's just a matter of means of handling.  For what it's worth, mad jack :headbang:

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2010, 04:34:12 AM »
Will have to try that again madjack, thanks.


Well I started an attempt to repair the vice last night - haven't uploaded the pics yet but I may have bitten off more than I can chew! It's a simple component to repair it, but the thread itself will be the stumbling block.

From what I can tell, it's an 8 TPI acme thread - well it's certainly sort of square bottomed with slightly tapered sides - I guess all I can do is measure the major and minor, pitch and grind a tool to fit the profile - suck it and see.

I could have chosen a better material - the only lump in my scrap box that looked about the right size was a lump I hacked off the back end of a massive old cutting tool. It hacksawed and seems to machine ok but you can sort of tell it's quite hard. Will have to do the thread in many passes I think. I swore I would only have 1 attempt at a repair but it's so simple in theory that I might have another go if the first doesn't work! I've got that cast round gunmetal that may be a more suitable material - easier to work with although the wrong shape to start with.

Anyway, all will become clear when I post the pics.  :worthless: I'm not sure what it originally looked like as that half nut bit does have a bit chipped off it, but it also has a machined surface and what looks like 2 snapped off pins or screws. I wonder what was on top - whatever it was is missing. It's a good vice though so worth at least trying to save - and save £65 at same time.

Nick

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline DMIOM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Country: gb
  • Isle of Man
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2010, 04:52:51 AM »
........I've got that cast round gunmetal that may be a more suitable material - easier to work with although the wrong shape to start with. ......

Since you're already into :proj: diversification mode, why-not re-cast it into the right shape?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 04:54:22 AM by DMIOM »

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2010, 05:07:08 AM »
Sounds a long way round, haven't got any casting gear just need to mill some flats on it.
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline DMIOM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Country: gb
  • Isle of Man
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2010, 06:55:36 AM »
sorry for going off-topic - was meant to be a joke  :wave:

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2010, 10:04:00 AM »
By the way Nick, that piece of gun metal is probably your best bet for a good, solid vise nut.  It will bear a lot of pressure for years and wear slowly, yet it cuts pretty easily, it's just a matter of setting up a good boring bar and getting a cutter bit good and square with the bored hole.  Vises are expensive, and only get scrapped if there simply is no way to save them.  By the same token, an old shaper or planer vise at the right price needing rebuilding is better than a brand new vise made in some foreign land which uses pictograms, almost always!!  That gun metal should silver solder with hard solder very well, and strong, if you need to put ears on it, of something to attach it to the vise body, that or brazing will work well.  Good luck with the fix, hope to see it working again.  mad jack :headbang:

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2010, 10:11:58 AM »
Nick

Cant you just replace the screw with a rasping big set screw M12 ish the nut will be easy then.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2010, 05:01:22 PM »
Thanks for the advice guys. Stew, yes I did think of remaking the screw as well to make the nut easier! M12 is about the largest tap and die I have I think but that is still quite a bit smaller than the 5/8" thread it is at the moment. Would probably sill be plenty strong enough though I would think.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline andyf

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1795
  • Country: gb
    • The Warco WM180 Lathe - Modifications
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2010, 02:28:59 PM »
Nick, this place sells 5/8" x 10TPI Acme flanged nuts. No prices on their website, though!

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2010, 02:32:51 PM »
Andy,  :doh: you missed the link out!  :lol: This vice problem has stopped me in my tracks a bit but I don't want to chuck it out for the sake of a tap or a nut or whatever, it's too good.

I've been pretty slack lately too, just can't be bothered to get in the garage to tell you the truth, but I will soon.

nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline jim

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • Country: 00
Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2010, 03:02:48 PM »

I've been pretty slack lately too, just can't be bothered to get in the garage to tell you the truth, but I will soon.

nick

normal service will be resummed at my workshop next weekend!!!
if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it