Author Topic: BMW V8 dry sump from billet  (Read 208770 times)

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #125 on: March 21, 2010, 07:42:31 PM »
Cheers chaps :)

Ralph - in total, probably 6 hours today. If it had occurred to me that I didn't need a nice finish, I could have probably saved myself an hour. But what the heck, it's all good practice.
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline Dean W

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #126 on: March 21, 2010, 09:56:42 PM »
It's really coming along well, Ade.  (And thanks for all the good pics!)

Quote
Here we are after the spotting work is done (including some idiot lines)

Idiot lines my eye.  That's playing it smart.  Idiots can't do this kind of work.

Quote
So, it's a shame it's going to be hidden away under the oily bits of the engine...

Somebody will see whatever you do in there, some day.  Just think, when another fellow takes this off some time in the future,
he's gonna think, "This guy did nice work!".  

Dean
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Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #127 on: March 22, 2010, 06:18:42 PM »
Cheers Dean - actually, I used the phrase "idiot lines" in the same way as you'd use "idiot lights" - i.e. quick & dirty warning system. However, I've done some pretty idiotic things in my time; and even with the mill... so it's as wise to be sure..

Anyway, a very brief update tonight. Something that's been bugging me for a while is the one-shot oiler on my mill. It's never worked properly, and usually I'd get about 1/16" of movement on the handle if I used it. Since I've had the mill for 6 months now (yikes!), and it's never been properly 1-shot oiled, I decided I'd better do something about it... And besides, it's good for procrastinating when you're not sure what to do next...

The problem with the oiler was obvious; the pump shaft is bent at the top, causing it to jam hard on the oil outlet doodah. So, the doodah was removed, and since I can't get the shaft out to straighten it, I decided to open up the port a bit to give it some room. In the pic, I'm just roughly centering it by "hanging" it on the 8mm drill bit, I then dialled it in properly, and reamed it out to 8.3mm. As this proved to be totally insufficient, I chucked it up again & ran it out to 9mm; that seems to have done the trick.



So, by the time that was back on the mill, and one-shotted (the handle still hasn't come all the way down, so maybe there's a blockage too? Still, the knee seems easier to move now, time will tell), I'd decided what to do next: Drill the long holes.

This involves canting the head over 90 degrees, as with the wax model. Only this time, I wanted to be a bit more scientific about setting the head up. So, I started by getting it roughly right, then using a dial gauge running on a cutter shank to try to get rid of any up-down differences:



This wasn't easy, the cutter seemed to have some run-out/taper in it, and I was getting bored.... so I decided to try another method. I loaded the big drill up, then set my longest square on a 1-2-3 block.  I positioned the knee so the end of the square was roughly on the centre line.

Next; set the dial gauge up so it's at the exact (by eye, admittedly) same height as the square on it's 1-2-3 block, then set the centre line somewhat more accurately, thus:




Now, move the square to the end of the table (I suppose the dial indicator would have worked just as well, and the magnet would mean I didn't need to clamp it like I did with the square... ho hum):



Howzabout that? About 3-4mm low. So, I just spannered the head to the right angle by eye. I figure if it's within 1mm over 600+mm, that's pretty accurate...

Question to anyone reading this: Is my method of setting the head angle sane? I'm not sure how much droop there is in that drill bit, and I'm not entirely sure how to measure it. Bear in mind the drill bit is tapered, so I can't use an edge with any accuracy... Any suggestions on how to be absolutely certain I've got the thing dead level would be much appreciated.
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline Stormin

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #128 on: March 22, 2010, 07:21:29 PM »
Question to anyone reading this: Is my method of setting the head angle sane? I'm not sure how much droop there is in that drill bit, and I'm not entirely sure how to measure it. Bear in mind the drill bit is tapered, so I can't use an edge with any accuracy... Any suggestions on how to be absolutely certain I've got the thing dead level would be much appreciated.


Not an expert but I reckon there's a reasonable droop in the drill bit too. How about a cheapo laser pointer mounted in the spindle and set a target near to the pointer then further away on the table. Similar to the way you've done things but gaurantees a straight line to work from.

Offline DMIOM

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #129 on: March 22, 2010, 07:21:51 PM »
.....Bear in mind the drill bit is tapered, so I can't use an edge with any accuracy... Any suggestions on how to be absolutely certain I've got the thing dead level would be much appreciated........

Not sure how practical this would be, with (a) overhang and (b) taper; but as food for thought :

Take a block of, say, aluminium - might only need to be, say, a couple of inches cube (block needs to be long enough in X to span several turns of the flutes of the drill). Secure block to table and drill by feeding the full length of the drill through it. When the shank end has been reached, it should be drilling at the biggest diameter. Make certain the block is still well anchored and that the hole hasn't gone visibily out of round. With the spindle stopped, carefully feed the table back so as to withdraw the drill. When you get back to just before the tip, if there was no taper, the block should still be tight to the drill. If there is taper, it won't be tight any more, so loosen the clamp and then shim up the block (need to lift it squarely) and check if the amount of shim to get it to touch the bottom of the drill matches the specified taper. If you don't know the taper figure, with the block sat back un-shimmed on the table, slide the un-clamped block in and out on Y and clock the difference and halve it, then the shim in Z should be the same.

One thing I'm not sure about though is how much whip you might have after drilling through such a short block ......

Dave
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 07:25:42 PM by DMIOM »

Offline andyf

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #130 on: March 22, 2010, 08:16:04 PM »
If the position of the job on the table permits the work to be brought close to the collet or whatever is holding the drill (this should be possible, or you wouldn't be able to drill the hole to full depth), I'd use a short, non-droopy drill of the same diameter to drill a few inches in, then wind the job away, fit the long drill, and proceed to full depth.
Counsel of perfection (well, after a couple of pints, it doesn't seem too bad an idea :lol: ): arrange some crude support for the middle of the long drill, so it doesn't sag. Some sort of jack with a generous flat top, brought up to the drill near the collet and then moved out to the mid-point, might do the trick.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #131 on: March 22, 2010, 10:01:25 PM »
Stormin - that's an interesting idea, I'll have to look into laser pointers. They seem to be cheap enough on eBay; I wonder how true they point when chucked up in a collet...

Dave - I think the taper is the other way around to what you think - i.e. the "fat" end of the drill is the pointy end, and it narrows towards the shank. This makes sense from a chip-clearing perspective, and also it means you're never cutting on the full length of the drill. Mind you, it does make you wonder why they bothered fluting it all the way to the end... since I can only cut around 10mm at a time in the aluminium. Also, the drill does whip very alarmingly if run in free air (no prizes for guessing how I know this...), I'd reckon that a short block wouldn't offer much support after 1/2 the drill length had passed through it; also, because of the taper, it would start cutting oval in very short order, I reckon.

Andy - I know it's a looong time ago, but way back on p4, that's exactly what I did with the wax model. I used a 16mm end mill (Not sure why, I have a 5/8" end mill... hm, maybe I don't have a 5/8" collet). I also did that when I did the trial hole in aluminium, which is on p5... I'll be doing it again this time too  :thumbup:

FWIW, and in case I'm being unclear, I'm only concerned with the drill bit drooping while I try to get the head set up perfectly horizontal. Once drilling has begun, the hole supports the drill, so it doesn't appear to wander at all.
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline usn ret

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #132 on: March 22, 2010, 10:53:17 PM »
Ade, a length of white steels/drill rod held in your collet would not sag and you can check squareness over the lenght of the rod to get the desired degree of trueness. Hope this helps.  :beer: Ypur project has a much larger audience than you know. I am impressed with your progress ao far.   :hammer: Measure mannnnny times cut once!!!! :wack:
Cliff :beer:
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 02:02:53 PM by CrewCab »
If it isn't broken your not looking hard enough!

Offline Stormin

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #133 on: March 23, 2010, 06:02:34 AM »
Stormin - that's an interesting idea, I'll have to look into laser pointers. They seem to be cheap enough on eBay; I wonder how true they point when chucked up in a collet...


Easy way to tell is watch if the mark dances about on the wall when you set the spindle revolving.

Forgot to complement you on the machining and ingenuity shown so far on this project, keep up the good work.
Be nice to see the finished car but it sems to be missing from your first post now.

Edit: It's seems to be back again now. I'd forgot it was a Capri and not BMW this engine was going in.

Offline DMIOM

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #134 on: March 23, 2010, 06:04:26 AM »
Stormin - that's an interesting idea, I'll have to look into laser pointers. They seem to be cheap enough on eBay; I wonder how true they point when chucked up in a collet...

OK - if you get a self-contained laser pointer, you could pop it in a collet and then spin by hand or at low speed whilst watching the image on a card as far away as practical - at least as far away as your drill is long.  If the spot gets bigger when its spinning, then its describing a circle and needs nudging to true it up. Then, when running true, "erect" a target which you can secure to the bed, mark where the dot is and traverse the table and check that the dot stays static.

Dave

EDIT cross-posted at same time as Stormin !

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #135 on: March 23, 2010, 08:32:11 AM »
Cool, I'd thought of getting one of those cheapie keyring ones, cut off the keyring, and it looks like it ought to go in a collet. I'll get some ordered  :thumbup:

The only downside is, Staples want £40 minimum for a pointer, vs. less than £2 on eBay, so I'll just set up as best I can without a laser for now.
After all, it's not like it's my sump!  :lol:
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline crankshafter

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #136 on: March 23, 2010, 08:33:06 AM »
Hi Ade.
Nice work
Laser edge/senter finder, have a look at this, fits in your colett
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2604
CS

Offline kvom

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #137 on: March 23, 2010, 08:46:54 AM »
I'm wondering how rigid the head is when set at 90 degrees like that.  Perhaps some additional support would be a good idea.  :scratch:

For setting level, some drill rod in a collet checked with the DI seems like a reasonable approach

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #138 on: March 23, 2010, 08:53:27 AM »
CS: $85!!!! Wow, that's clean out of my budget... I'm sure it must be possible to rig up a holder for one of those cheap "cat toy" laser pointers... 

:proj: strikes again...

Kvom: It's not bad, actually, so long as you clamp the head bolts down nice & firmly. Yeah, there's a fair amount of weight on the backside, what with the motor hanging off it - and changing the speed is a bit of a pain (needs at least 3 hands, 5 would be better). The Bridgie is obviously designed to take such arrangements, as apparently there's an oil modification you need to do if you plan to leave the head on its side for a significant period of time (typically, "significant" is not defined: Is it an hour? a day? a week?). At any rate, I managed the three wax holes & 1 aluminium hole without any apparent issues; so I'm not overly concerned right now. Ask me again in about 10 hours..... my reply might be a bit different...  :zap:
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #139 on: March 23, 2010, 07:24:27 PM »
OK, tonight's update; and due to a late finish, it's pretty brief I'm afraid. I spent ages setting up, using a dial indicator to try to get the sump straight & true:




Then using a piece of 5/8" mild steel rod as a crude edge finder:



Finally, I am ready to take the plunge & start drilling. I can't reach as far as the work piece with a centre drill, so I'm just having to chance that the 7mm drill won't wander too badly. It seemed OK:



These holes were then opened out to 1/2" (biggest drill bit I've got with a straight shank), and finally milled to 5/8" with a cutter held in the chuck - the only way I could make it reach the sump:



....and that's the last of tonight's photos. I went ahead & drilled the shortest hole (238mm), and the longest (483mm). I videoed the long hole, it's loading onto the computer now & I should be able to edit it down sometime in the next couple of days... I thought you'd prefer a video to some stills...

Right, offski. Haven't eaten yet, and it's gone 11pm  :bugeye:

 :thumbup:
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline jim

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #140 on: March 24, 2010, 04:10:10 AM »
good work!

if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline Divided he ad

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #141 on: March 24, 2010, 04:38:00 AM »
Looks like your going to have some fun today Ade!?!?   :ddb:



It'll be hard to drill it with all your fingers crossed though  :dremel:




Hope it all goes as smoothly as the test pieces  :headbang:







Ralph.
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #142 on: March 24, 2010, 04:43:11 AM »
Wishing continuing good luck to you Ade!  :thumbup:

David D

David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Darren

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #143 on: March 24, 2010, 09:28:16 AM »
Praying for you over here too ....  :thumbup:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Bernd

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #144 on: March 24, 2010, 09:56:40 AM »
WOW  :bugeye:

That's some setup. It's a wonder the mill didn't tip over sideways.  :lol:

Hope you get the expected results.   :beer:  :ddb:

Bernd
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Offline crankshafter

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #145 on: March 24, 2010, 10:45:40 AM »
Hi Ade.
That's what we call a setup :jaw: :bugeye: :D
Ade: you and  :mmr:
CS

Offline Dean W

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #146 on: March 24, 2010, 08:24:53 PM »
Yes, that's quite a setup. 
Okay, just like with the wax, now.  Three nice big straight holes!
Going great, Ade.  I know you'll be victorious over the metal monster! 

Dean
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Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #147 on: March 24, 2010, 08:35:47 PM »
Thanks chaps, your encouragement & general approval means a lot to me. :thumbup: To think, a little over 6 months ago, I'd never touched a metalworking machine in my life (well, maybe excepting brushing past a lathe at school, twenty mumbleteen years ago). I'm fairly sure that, if I knew what I was doing, I certainly wouldn't be attempting this!

Don't worry about the mill tipping over, I had my ample weight anchoring the mill down on the other side...  :lol:

No progress tonight, the day job got in the way.... I had finished & uploaded the video but YouTube have decided that I can't use my chosen soundtrack due to copyright infringement, so I need to find a more obscure version of it before I can show & tell...

FWIW - the drill chattered a LOT more on the two holes I've drilled so far, than it did on the test hole. I don't know if it's the extra material causing it to have to work harder, or some other factor; but it was a proper pucker job drilling the first two holes. Of course, with only one hole left to go, I'm pretty happy about the various noises now, so I don't anticipate any problems.

The only remaining mystery is - did the drill go to where I expected it to? I won't find that out until tomorrow at the earliest...  :coffee:

Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline Divided he ad

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #148 on: March 25, 2010, 04:44:59 AM »
(said in the super deep movie trailer introduction voice....!)

"The story of a man realising his engineering abilities. A brush with the "law". Nail biting drama. Mystery, and suspense....... This thread has everything!

"BMW V8 dry sump from billet"  Coming to a forum near you soooon!!  "


 :lol:


I don't know... It seemed funny while I was writing it!?   :)



Sounds like your having fun Ade?


Waiting for the vid' after you get around the "law"  :bang:


 :nrocks:




Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #149 on: March 25, 2010, 11:06:09 AM »
And now....




.....





....for something completely different...


Or, indeed, maybe not. The video finally uploaded & didn't trigger any lawyers  :thumbup:

Cheers!
Ade.
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Location: Wallasey, Merseyside. A long way from anywhere.
Occasionally: Zhengzhou, China. An even longer way from anywhere...