Author Topic: BMW V8 dry sump from billet (Read 207756 times)

AdeV · « **Reply #175 on:** March 29, 2010, 04:42:30 PM »

Cheers chaps, keep up the encouragement.... it's needed just now...

Spigots of Death - Part 1

I need 3 spigots, one per pipe, so that the flexi hose to the oil pump can be fixed on. This means lathe work... In my defence, the lathe is much newer to me than the milling machine, and I've had a lot less practice on it. Which probably explains why I now have 2 scrap spigots & no good ones... and I'm rapidly wearing my 1" ali stock down...

Here's the two attempts:

Attempt #1, incongruously, is the one on the right that looks just fine. OK, the shoulder end of the thread is a bit messy, but that side is basically OK. The thread was cut with a mixture of single pointing & then a die. As it transpires, I had my metric threading tool in the toolpost, so it didn't cut a particularly good BSF thread... Switched to the imperial cutter tonight and that did better.... except I cut the threads too deep. So, when I drilled out the centre, the last drill just ate the threaded end. Doh!

Looking from this side, you can see the problem with the "good" spigot - I've badly over-cut the spigot wall, so there's nearly no meat left. Certainly not enough to clamp a hose to. It makes for a really light part, though! Wall thickness on the other one is better. All it needed was a chamfered end, and it'd have been bob on.

I cut the spigot end (on both parts) using a parting tool: I'm sure that's a Really Bad Idea, but I can't think of a better way to cut between the shoulder and the 4-jaw chuck. Won't be a problem after tomorrow, I've got a tasty new ER32 collect chuck + some collets arriving

so I'll finally be able to turn stuff around without having to spend 1/2 hour dialling it back in. I just hope it sticks out past the 4-jaw, so I don't have to take that off... 'cos that would be a right arse ache.

So..... a disappointing evening on the lathe. But fear not.... I will not be beaten.... Part 2 tomorrow (hopefully).

Darren · « **Reply #176 on:** March 29, 2010, 06:35:31 PM »

Hey, chin-up .... it's not a failure, just call it practice to get you closer to your goal ....

I'm sure we have no doubts of your capabilities

AdeV · « **Reply #177 on:** March 29, 2010, 08:01:16 PM »

It's funny, but as I look at the semi-failed part (the first one, with the holes I just noticed in the threads - clearly visible in the 3rd photo...), it still amazes me that I made it myself.

I. Made. It.

I mean, how cool is that?

Even though it's useless, I think I'll finish it off - the final operation was to mill a hex on the central section, so it can be spanner tightened onto the sump.

It also raises the question... can I run a 5/8" bore through a 3/4" BSF threaded section without it failing due to being too thin? Evidence to date would suggest not; but, then, I can try cutting the threads a little shallow, safe in the knowledge the tap seems to be cutting a trifle deep

No1_sonuk · « **Reply #178 on:** March 29, 2010, 08:10:35 PM »

Could you not cast up some of your wax into a cylinder and test the idea?

AdeV · « **Reply #179 on:** March 29, 2010, 08:20:01 PM »

Quote from: No1_sonuk on March 29, 2010, 08:10:35 PM

Could you not cast up some of your wax into a cylinder and test the idea?

I'm pretty sure the wax is too delicate at that sort of thinness, it would just break up as the drill went through. Having said that, it's got to be worth a go...

I've found a BSF chart which suggests that, theoretically at least, a 5/8" bore WILL go through a 3/4" BSF thread, with a "generous" 0.018" wall thickness between the minor diameter & the inner bore... I'll have to get out the measuring tongs tomorrow & see if the hole I'm cutting is oversized; but, as I mused above, I reckon I can cut the thread a bit shallow to give me a bit more elbow room with the bore size. Of course, 5/8" is the ideal bore, I could get away with 19/32" if it's going to be a problem.... except I probably haven't got a drill or reamer that size...

Darren · « **Reply #180 on:** March 29, 2010, 08:32:56 PM »

Does this help?

http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/source/b/r/british%20standard%20whitworth/source.html

Artie · « **Reply #181 on:** March 29, 2010, 08:39:28 PM »

Hi Ade, firstly, damned great job so far. Loving the write up. Secondly, I have to endorse earlier comments, no cock up is a failure if you learn something from it... its called 'practise' and its time well invested!!

Lastly, are not these fittings available in steel or hi tensile ali? (such as Earls fittings at www.holley.com) I ask this because if one of these broke at the thread point it would cost you an engine. Sort of a silly reason to lose an engine.

Keep it up mate.

dsquire · « **Reply #182 on:** March 29, 2010, 10:40:15 PM »

Ade

I'm going to throw my 2 cents worth in here.

When making the plugs for the oil passages you were very concerned that they might come out hence the loctite and possible pin to keep them in place. An elephant could not get them out.

Now you are making the spigots and they are looking pretty fragile to me. I think that it wouldn't take much of a bump to break one off and then you have oil all over the track instead of the crankshaft.

Cheers

Don

AdeV · « **Reply #183 on:** March 30, 2010, 10:39:34 AM »

Bugger!

So, I will have to take the 4-jaw off to use that shiny new ER32 collet chuck

Not a job I'm looking forward to, it must be said...

...maybe I'll buy a 3MT extension sleeve for future use, although that runs the risk of being a bit floppy... I really ~~need~~ want a quick-change chuck system...

Stilldrillin · « **Reply #184 on:** March 30, 2010, 12:05:36 PM »

Ah!

That`s a pity.......

An extension sleeve will make very little difference to the rigidity....... You will only be taking light cuts, I guess.

David D

Divided he ad · « **Reply #185 on:** March 30, 2010, 12:17:59 PM »

Ade,

What thread has it got in your collet chuck and where abouts are you? (PM if need be)

You see I've got an ER32 collet holder with a body a bit too long for my machine bout 100mm (or looks at least twice the length of body to yours) nut to the start of the moarse.... I'll have to measure it correctly, but I'm going to play pool in about 10 min's.

Anyway, I only got it 8-10 months or so ago and it's only been used about 5 times (not much shop time at all last year

)

You can see were I'm going with this can't you??

Just a thought, no need for wobbly extensions

Ralph.

Jasonb · « **Reply #186 on:** March 30, 2010, 12:27:23 PM »

Quote

a 5/8" bore WILL go through a 3/4" BSF thread, with a "generous" 0.018" wall thickness

The difference in bore and core dia is 0.018" which only gives you a fag paper 0.009" wall thickness as you need to divide by two. Also you can have a radius on the end of the tool which will help with strength as it reduces the stress raisers.

If you can only use 3/4" BSF then I would not take the bore over 9/16"

May also be worth having a slightly raised lip on the stub for the hose to reduce the risk of it sliding off even with the clamp tightened

Or you could push the boat out and get some Aeroquip fittings

Jason

Jason

jim · « **Reply #187 on:** March 30, 2010, 02:02:28 PM »

jsut a quick question about the hose fittings.

are you intending to use ally? if so i'd be inclinded to buy some in, as mentioned previously.

you've done a fantastic job so far!

AdeV · « **Reply #188 on:** March 30, 2010, 02:11:49 PM »

David, hmm, light cuts you say? I guess 0.030" in ali doesn't count as light, no?

Ralph - Collet chuck has a 7/16" BSW thread (because, obviously, that's in SUCH common use these days...), and is about 15cm full length (including taper). I'm based just across the river from Liverpool (just off the Wirral end of the M53 motorway). Certainly I'd prefer not to be messing around with extensions, if I can help it.... and yes, I think I can see where you're going with your thinking...

, no wait,

I mean...

Jason - thanks for the calcs. I'm not sure there's any kind of radius on my single pointing tool (it's very pointy). I chose 3/4" BSF as I happen to posess a full set of taps (taper, 2nd & plug), which I don't have for any other size of hole. And because, nominally, it's able to take the 5/8" hole....

...but, as it's so close, I think I'll try Plan B: I'll use a straight shank on both ends, and some Loctite to retain it in the sump. As the oil pump & sump don't move in relation to each other, there shouldn't be much repetitive strain going on, maybe some vibration, but no major pulls & pushes.

Jim.... buy? Buy!? How very dare you!

Purchased fittings will be the choice of last resort... I'll make 'em out of Stainless if I have to...

Jasonb · « **Reply #189 on:** March 30, 2010, 02:25:54 PM »

I think I would be happier with a thread rather than loctite but go for a finer pitch in metric something like M18x 1.0 or 1.5 or you could use 3/4 x 16 UNC. Maybe even 5/8 BSP as this is designed for 5/8" ID pipe.

Jason

AdeV · « **Reply #190 on:** March 30, 2010, 05:13:08 PM »

Jason - I'll check out 5/8 BSP I think; I should be able to get taps for that before Easter...

Meanwhile, another frustrating evening on the lathe... It started off OK, I chucked up & centered a 2.25" length of 1" ali bar, and turned 0.75" down to about 20mm (small enough to fit in an ER32 collet anyway).

Then, pulled the 4J off, cleaned out the spindle (mucky pup it was too), popped in the 3MT sleeve, added the collet chuck and - woah - LOADS of runout... over 0.2mm at the chuck body. Damn.

Investigations have shown that the 3MT sleeve is the culprit, with around 0.1mm runout right at the neck of the internal morse taper (it's probably worse than that, the dial gauge was at an angle). Humbug. Now I need to make a new one of them. I'm glad I've got this one, mind, the external taper doesn't conform to any documented standard that I can find... looks like I'm going to be busy over Easter...

CrewCab · « **Reply #191 on:** March 30, 2010, 05:22:53 PM »

As ever Ade ........... great work and dam good entertainment

Quote from: AdeV on March 30, 2010, 02:11:49 PM

I'll make 'em out of Stainless if I have to...

Got to say with the wall thickness etc my first thoughts were that ally was probably not the best choice

............ but just my 2c worth of course, it's easy to be a critic from afar ain't it

keep up the good work mate

CC

Divided he ad · « **Reply #192 on:** March 30, 2010, 07:45:44 PM »

The Wirral.... I was there repairing a door this afternoon

Only about 45 min's away

My threads are M12x1.5 I could probably re-thread your one to my specs, but would that thread be an issue to yourself? Have you got a drawbar for your lathe of that thread?

Anywho, I'll measure it all up and you and I can have a chat about it tomorrow

I know everyone is saying good stuff, calc's and all about these hose fittings but.... As long as your making them I assume your heading for one of these styles?

Hopefully you can make out a pictorial form of what Jason was saying???

Sorry about the true C-o-C quality... It's 00:40!!

Just make sure the wall of your fitting is thick enough to take the pressure of the tightened clip too! Steel would be my choice! (I know, sucking eggs! But I'd rather say it than not

)

Ralph.

AdeV · « **Reply #193 on:** March 30, 2010, 08:41:34 PM »

Ralph - the thread doesn't bother me at all, I've no drawbar; and if I need one (if the Plastic Hammer of Doom isn't hard enough to scare the chuck into place), then I'll make one for whatever thread I've got...

Your first C-o-C is exactly what I'm aiming for. The threaded end screws into the sump (and is purely there for safe keeping). The rubber hose is then jubilee'd onto the smooth sticky outy bit. It doesn't need much of a "nose", probably 1mm will be plenty.

I'm reasonably sure I can fit a 5/8" BSP screw thread into my chosen pipe layout at the sump end; it's a fair bit bigger than the 3/4 BSF I've been using, so there should be plenty of meat left (even using ali) to prevent snappage or stress fracturing - plus, since the pump & sump don't move relative to each other, and since the whole lot's under a vacuum in use, I can't see masses of stress in that area anyway. With the threading at a temporary impasse, I'm not convinced that a Loctited slip fitting wouldn't hold up.

WRT material; the fittings on the oil pump are aluminium. Two of them are mega-substantial hose fittings of some incredibly expensive variety; but the third is a plain spigot, 16mm ID, 18mm OD (or thereabouts), and that's not crushed. And again, as this is the vacuum side & not the pressure side, slightly loose pipes will suck themselves further on, rather than getting blown off (sure - very loose pipes will fall off, but that's another story), so one doesn't need to clamp them murder tight.

I hear you on the steel thing, though. I may make a spare set of mild steel fittings, just in case. But not until after I've finished the rest of it off...

Jasonb · « **Reply #194 on:** March 31, 2010, 02:37:08 AM »

You really should have a drawbar, the side pressure from the turning tool can make the taper come loose, the last thing you want is your collet chuck dropping out while you are machining something.

Jason

Divided he ad · « **Reply #195 on:** March 31, 2010, 03:38:03 AM »

No worries

Figured you were going that direction. What with such cars and engine swaps you must have seen hundreds of hose fittings

Only asked about the crush factor cause I found a steel one (~1mm wall thickness) on my car that had been abused by a previous owner

Drawbar.... Fully agreed with Jason, you really should make one! Could be kinda scary without

Ralph.

Divided he ad · « **Reply #196 on:** March 31, 2010, 06:34:12 PM »

It was good to meet you Ade

brief but fun

I just got back from a trip over to Ade's workshop.... it's a little bit bigger than mine

Swapped a collet holder and had a bit of a chat with Ade and his dad... Both very happy chilled out blokes

The sump project looks very huge and awkward! But fun too! The wax stuff is brilliant, I had no idea it would be so strong and light!

I don't envy you your next challenge with the tapers either Ade, your going to have fun finding a boring bar long enough!

Thinking about it, you only need to drill a hole the narrow size of the MT3 taper through the blank and then make the taper ~4" long (whatever the MT length is?) so not such a huge boring bar really

Snowing here again, 1" on the local roads, much fun the last 2 miles home, the back of the motor stepping out at the slightest hint of power

Usually surprises the muppets driving 4 feet of my arse end!

We will have to find a day in the future (probably best a warm one!!) that allows a longer time to chat.... at only 30 mins away it's not a bad run

Take it easy, have fun with the tool making tomorrow

Ralph.

AdeV · « **Reply #197 on:** March 31, 2010, 07:19:15 PM »

Cheers Ralph, it was great to put a face to the name, and I don't envy you your car in this weather.... it'd be a scream round Oulton though.. you'll have to book a track day (if you can get the locks to work, that is!

)

I like the way you say "you only need to drill a hole the narrow size of the MT3 taper through the blank", like it'll be easy or something... You do realise I cut myself an 8" piece for my blank? I do have some long(ish) drills (not to mention Da Monster), not sure I've got any 8" ones though...

Hmmm. I guess we'll find out tomorrow....

I'll start a new thread for this project, just on the billion to one chance that another Edgwick owner ever graces these pages & needs a sleeve...

Jasonb · « **Reply #198 on:** April 01, 2010, 02:38:49 AM »

If its a sleeve to take that collet colder you only need the through hole large enough to clear the drawbar as thats all that will be going through the hole. Unless I'm missing something.

Jason

AdeV · « **Reply #199 on:** April 12, 2010, 04:10:49 PM »

Hmm, it seems to have been a while since I did anything on this project... haven't really had much workshop time recently. Although there's no excuse other than pure bone idleness for not doing owt over the weekend...

So, anyway, after a few calculations & stuff, I canted the angle plate up & milled away the bulk of the interior side wall material on one side:

There's about another 0.5mm to take in each axis to get them spot on - I'll do that with a finishing cutter (not the rippa, which was used today), just to get a nice smoooth surface. Hopefully, that'll be tomorrow's job, then I can flip it over & do the other side.

Interestingly, the surface (again) looks worse in the photo than it is in reality; there's a few ridges in the nearest hollow (just me being lax in pulling the quill right down to the stop, I think), but the others are again dead smooth to the touch. I'm hoping they'll be even nicer when I finish with a "proper" cutter...

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Author Topic: BMW V8 dry sump from billet (Read 207756 times)