Author Topic: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log  (Read 47358 times)

Offline raynerd

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Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« on: August 03, 2010, 06:58:56 PM »
I`ve not posted this until now as I`ve got 101 projects on the go and wanted to get a little closer to finishing this one before talking about it. I have been posting little blogs on my website and so I`ve basically pulled my three enteries on this build from there. I`ve been working on this for about 3 weeks now on and off. One thing I`m starting to learn is that things take time and up until now I`ve been rushing everything to get a result ... hopefully this will pay off but yet to see....these engines aren`t easy to run but really blow me away!

This is Jan Ridders Simple LTD Stirling....

--part 1 July 15th 2010 --

I made an attempt at an LTD Stirling Engine several months ago and failed quite miserably. I know these things are temperamental but after my first attempt I did have quite a few ideas for improvements...nothing new, things that people have already been doing but stuff that I ignored! So over the last few months despite having 101 other projects on the go I started collecting materials. I decided on a glass cylinder with a graphite piston for the power piston and also point bearings as shown in Jan Ridders latest LTD simple stirling plans.

Here is the lump of graphite I`ve managed to get hold of... it is a fair old lump!


And it seems to cut OK. I hacked a long block off the top and turned it down holding the vac under the tool to pull all the graphite dust away. This was just a test but I used the same process to make the displacer piston bushings.



The power piston will have a glass cylinder. I needed to know that I can cut test tubes before I got into this and this setup worked a treat. Turning the glass slowly in the lathe I eased the dremel cutter slowly into the tube. I believe you can cut it half way and snap it the rest of the way but I actually held a cloth under it and cut right through.



Here is a collection of most of the materials. The only thing missing is the 2.5mm silver steel which I forgot to include in the picture.



The container was purchased at Asda for £1 and is about 101mm OD. I rang a plastic company and for a 100mm OD clear acrylic piece of 20mm length they wanted £12 plus £10 postage!!!! I think this will do the trick nicely and it cut far more easily than the tapered Tesco spaghetti tube I used last time - the 20mm cut off length can also be seen above!  You can also see the glass cylinder.

So I`ve now made some progress with the displacer cylinder, top and bottom have been cut and the top displacer rod hole bushed with graphite. The displacer cylinder will be permanently sealed once completed unlike some designs (and my last attempt) which used screws to clamp the cylinder in place. I think I had a problem with air leakage last time so this time I`ll stick to Jans idea of a permanent seal. I`m actually going to use sealant to permanently bond the bottom section of the aluminum to the plastic displacer cylinder. I`ve cut the top aluminum so that there is a rim of the same ID of the cylinder. This allows me to lock the cylinder onto the rim and I`ll use a small bead of silicon just on the outside join to seal the two as it is held tight without any bonding. If anything does go wrong it`ll be easier to cut this small seal if I need to disassemble the displacer again.






-- Part 2 - 21st July 2010 ---

Still pushing on with this, I have now cut a new cylinder to size and with a better finish from a 16mm OD test-tube with 14mm ID. This is the graphite piston to a perfect polished fit. This is the first time working with graphite and I`m very impressed with the fit!



Wasn`t quite finished in this picture but you can see the mirror finish starting.



This is the graphite bush for the displacer rod.




Since I don`t have a boring head for the mill and didn`t want to offset the plate in the mill, I luckly had this step drill that gave me just the 16mm by 3mm shoulder I needed just to sit the glass piston cylinder inside.




I then turned up two supports...



And here is the insert for the graphite power piston.




And what I have so far....



------ Part 3 - 3rd Aug 2010 ---

A little update here as I feel I am coming to the final straight!

Here is a picture of the parts so far but not including the glass cylinder and graphite piston - they are safe away from potential smashes! I`ve now cut the main parts for the crank shaft assembly - the displacer and piston rods, various size parts to the crank axis and of course the four webs.


I`ve also turned the tiny graphite bushes that sit between the webs and allow smooth movement of the rods.


I have now made a small error as at the same time I`ve not soldered the other axis to give the 90deg shift. I DID thread them onto the axis to keep them aligned whilest silver soldering these bits and my intention was to solder the axis for the 90 deg shift in my next "shop time". Of course when I solder the next bits, it`ll loosen the current soldered parts!! I am strongly considering gluing the other parts that make up the crank assembly. Especially with it being a stirling engine, there are few excessive forces or temperatures to worry about.



--------------------

I`ll keep updated from here, any advice appreciated. I really hope this runs!!

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2010, 08:53:33 AM »
That looks nice Chris:- slowly does it is the answer.

Stew
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2010, 11:22:32 AM »
Nice Chris. Hope it runs for you the first time around.  :thumbup:

Now to that 101 "craynerd" peojects list. I got you beat with 202 "Bernd" projects.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2010, 12:41:57 PM »
Wow Chris!  :bugeye:

Those parts are nicely made!  :clap:

Purposeful is the word, I think...... 

Good luck with future progress...... That will be a runner, no problem!  :thumbup:

David D
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2010, 04:40:10 PM »
Cheers guys, fingers crossed its a runner!  :med: :med:

I actually dropped one of these little crank assemblies last night and chipped the graphite bush so I`ve just come back from the workshop after repairing that. At one time I would have just run with the chipped one but ohh no, this is the new patient me... a new rebuild and better fitting than before  :lol:

Chris

Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2010, 04:43:12 PM »
Can anyone recommend a super glue that may be suitable for holding the rest of the crank assembly? - steel in brass.
Chris

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2010, 06:57:45 PM »
Very nice Chris  :clap: :clap: :clap: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Rob  :thumbup:

Offline mklotz

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2010, 07:25:56 PM »
Can anyone recommend a super glue that may be suitable for holding the rest of the crank assembly? - steel in brass.



A very handy weapon in the model engineering arsenal is Loctite 420 - a wicking superglue.  Over on HMEM I posted about a test I did on this stuff...

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=9099.msg98378#msg98378

Caveat:  I've never tried it on graphite.
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Offline NickG

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2010, 02:39:38 AM »
Nearly missed this Chris,

excellent work!  :bow:

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2010, 01:00:16 PM »
First of all, thanks for the replies! Kvom - interesting stuff regarding the loctite. A quick google didn`t bring up any obvious suppliers of loctite 420. I have heard that 601 is a good one and 603. It is certainly something I will be ordering soon.

An update ---

I`m off work for 6 weeks at present and so I`m getting more done than I ever have! - I`m having a great time between the workshop and looking after my little one.

I was lying in bed last night thinking about gluing the rest of the crank shaft and then I thought again, should I really not be following the plans! I`d also ignorantly cut the crank shaft into all the right sized little bits to soft solder into position. It was only when I chose to read the text that comes with the plans does it explain to insert that as one long piece, soft solder and cut the small sections out. Of course, despite having to remake the crank axis, this method allows perfect alignment and the only thing I had to do was set the cranks 90deg apart. I thought about a fancy jig and then decided that I could do this using a couple of pin vices.

My soft soldering leaves a lot to be desired. My flame seems too fierce and I end up with a huge blob of solder around the part. However, some time, effort and a lot of sanding got rid of the most of it.

Here is everything assembled so far. Perhaps I`ll have some time for the displacer tonight!



After going on about the displacer and how pleased I was with the graphite, I`m now not sure! It seems to move freely and when I blow it, the pressure builds up and the piston shoots out. However, the fall through test doesn`t work very well, it still falls through with a finger sealing the top... humm would you go with this piston or try and change it?  The piston will be something that could be changed once all is assembled. I`m tempted to run with it....
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 01:09:03 PM by craynerd »

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2010, 01:55:18 PM »
These have a good choice of loctite they don't seem to stock the one your after though.

http://www.bearingshopuk.co.uk/loctite-173-c.asp

Stew
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 :wave:

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Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2010, 02:06:15 PM »
Stew - Yea thanks, they do. I found those as well last night but your right, I couldn`t find that one.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the graphite power piston? As I`ve said, if you blow in the end of the cylinder if shoots out so it clearly holding a good seal but if you put your hand over the top of the cylinder, it falls down the cylinder which it shouldn`t. For saying that the brass piston insert makes it quite heavy!

Chris

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2010, 02:16:31 PM »
Stew - Yea thanks, they do. I found those as well last night but your right, I couldn`t find that one.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the graphite power piston? As I`ve said, if you blow in the end of the cylinder if shoots out so it clearly holding a good seal but if you put your hand over the top of the cylinder, it falls down the cylinder which it shouldn`t. For saying that the brass piston insert makes it quite heavy!

Chris

Carry on Chris!

You can always change it later, if necessary......  :thumbup:

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Offline Dean W

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2010, 09:58:03 PM »
Wow.  I miss one day and miss a whole build!  It's looking good, Chris.

I see the yoke for the piston is held in by a single screw through the bottom of the piston.  Could that be leaking
air?  It doesn't take much pressure to blow a piston out of a cylinder, but it has to be a pretty good fit to keep it
from falling through by gravity. 
If the bottom of the hole for the piston yoke isn't truly flat, it may be letting air past the fastening screw.

Just a question, not a criticism.  The base looks pretty thick.  Is it that thick in the plans for this engine?

Thanks for all the good pictures!

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Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2010, 02:25:34 AM »
Thanks for the questions and ideas. Sadly no pictures yet but I made the displacer cylinder, axis and connecting head last night.

Dean, good observations. You are correct about the screw holding the piston yolk in place, I have also thought that and my intention was to put a small dobb of sealant on the last few threads when I was happy with it. The plans call for the graphite to be threaded but I really struggled doing that! I guess I can`t call if I`m happy with it until I seal it up! My other thought, that Kwackers pointed out when he visted recently was that I`ve used the top part of a testube. When I cut the testtube, the finish isn`t very good so my thought was that if I use the top, I`ve only one cut to make and the top has a nice polished, liped edge. We both wondered however that if they do pull the lip of the testtube out at the top when blowing the glass, maybe the top of the testtube is not uniform or at least less uniform than if I took a middle piece from a testtube ?? - just a thought. Maybe I will attempt another piston before fitting it all together, at least there is more likelyhood it will work and it will save disappointment.

Also, regarding the base again you are correct. I need to chuck this bottom plate up and skim the bottom to 1mm thickness but not all over. I`ll leave it the same thickness at the edges, just from where the plastic cylinder rim fits I`ll bring it down to size. Sadly the Boxford is in bits at present and it won`t fit on my other lathes. My inverter should arrive in the next few days and I`ll want to immediately test that anyway so I will have to rebuild the sadlle and install the new 3 phase motor and at that point I`ll be able to do these little bits.


Thanks for looking, it is really helpful hearing others views.

Offline NickG

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2010, 06:15:38 AM »
Chris,

The top displacer cover on yours looks thick too - is that to drawing? I'm not quite sure how this will affect it's operation - it may retain more heat than a thin cover would, will the heat transfer as well though the thick base as it would a thin one? or if your top plate is thick, will you need the base to be thick too? I don't know the answers to these questions but what I'm trying to say is, I'd leave the base as it is until you've tried running it, as it could affect something.

I'd also try your existing power piston after sealing it up. If that doesn't work, try a new power piston first before altering the base - much easier to make than a new base!

nearly there  :thumbup:

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2010, 10:27:21 AM »
Hi Nick, just read your message. I`m trying to stick to the plans as much as possible as I believe these are tricky to run as they are so I want to work as near as possible to a known method and dimensions. The plans call for a 1mm thick base and the top I think 5mm, although my base is 6mm, I`ve now thinned it down in the centre to just shy of 1mm so the clear perspex displacer now sits on a small shoulder and the bottom disk is then recessed to 1mm thin base. I`m guessing the thicker edges could actually effect it so I may remove them if I have a problem.

I`m sure someone will correct me but my understanding is that this engines, LTD - low temp differential, work due to the difference in temperature between the top and bottom plate. In theory, the base size shouldn`t matter but of course if it is thicker it`ll take longer to heat up, especially if I`m hoping for it run of a low temperature source - like the palm of my hand  :lol: .. I wish!  A thinner base will heat up quicker and having a thicker top plate would mean it will heat up slower and therefore maintaining a great temperature difference for a longer period and greater running time. I`m guessing putting grooves in the top plate would give a greater area for heat loss and would make the engine perform better.

I am going to run with this graphite piston. I`ve thinned the top plate last night and also made the holder for the flywheel. Pictures to come later...


Chris

Offline mklotz

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2010, 11:24:57 AM »
Chris,

You may know this already but be aware that you can run your engine from a 'cold source' just as easily as with a heat source.

At exhibitions I baffle the onlookers by setting my LTD on a cold pack (or saucer of ice cubes) and letting it run off the heat available from the air or sunshine hitting the top plate when out of doors.  After the spectators have seen this I plop the engine onto a cup of coffee and it begins to run in the opposite direction.  Spectators generally know nothing of physics so they're astounded.

Incidentally, take the engine to your local bar/pub and do what I described above.  The trick is usually worth a free pint or two.  :D
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Offline GordTopps

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2010, 12:49:01 PM »
Good tip!  :D :)

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Offline kwackers

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2010, 01:26:22 PM »
I use ice lollies too.

People just don't get it - the idea an engine can run off 'cold' causes some of them great difficulty. They simply don't consider room temperature to be 'hot'.
In real terms though 273 deg K is almost the same as 300 deg K...

Offline mklotz

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2010, 01:44:45 PM »
I had one lady spectator who introduced herself to me and offered to shake hands.  I noticed that she had nice warm hands so, playing the evil genius, I set about convincing her that the engine ran on the psychic energy that humans emitted.  She looked sceptical so I told her to put her fingers on the (upper) 'hot' plate and, if the engine speed increased, it would prove that she had a good 'aura'.

She did, the engine sped up, and her eyes dilated and her mouth dropped open.  Last I saw her she was running off to tell her girlfriends all about 'psychic' engines.

My wife, standing in the background and watching all this, read me the riot act for falsely raising the hopes of the clueless but she had a hard time being serious about it for all the giggling she was doing.
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2010, 02:33:01 PM »
Recent show. Warm handed Spectator........




I wondered if I'd get the engine back! He wandered off with it, to show all his pals......   

David D
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2010, 02:35:27 PM »
Hi guys, thanks for your replies. Yes, Kvom, I did know they could run on a cold source but only because I`ve seen them doing so on youtube and it makes sense but I wouldn`t have considered it. I guess any temperature difference between the plates will cause it to run.

OK, here are some pictures for you. I`m pretty sure that this is all the parts are now complete and I`ll spend tonight polishing them up and then finally sealing the displacer if I have time.

Here is the displacer being cut from foam board. It actually cut very nicely on the lathe with a sharp tool, much better and more accurate than using a craft knife.


This is the holder for the displacer being formed





I next needed to make a similar holder for the flywheel. The plans for the flywheel to be glued to the holder but I wanted to be able to change it from something more aesthetically pleasing, I`m not keen on two CDs stuck together..but again I want to stick to the plans until it runs!


To make the flywheel changeable, I wanted to drill 4 holes so that I could attach it with small screws. So onto the milling machine and mounting my new Boxford spindle nose attachment so I can use the Boxford chuck. Only ever cutting gears, believe it or not, I`ve never using it this way around so have only just run into this potential disaster!! It doesn`t fit!!!!! I need a solution for future!


Luckily with about 2mm clearance I could just centre spot the hole locations but it certainly wasn`t ideal.




Two CDs were glued together and attached to the holder


And now all the pieces in the box ready for polishing and assembly!


OK, I couldn`t resist a quick mock up..notice this was a temporary single disk on the flywheel, it seems to run very very smooth but then the power piston wasn`t in. It did give me an idea of what it would look like.


Hopefully further updates shortly! I will need to leave it at least 18 hours for the sealant to dry and of course that is if I get onto it tonight.
Thanks for the comments and interest so far.
Chris





Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2010, 02:37:17 PM »
Oh yea, forgot to mention, I cut a middle section out of another testtube and using the same piston with no modifications it seems excellent!! Much better and doesn`t fall through with a finger on the top! :D Thanks to Kwackers for his suggestion on that one.

Offline NickG

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2010, 10:48:50 AM »
Chris, you're right to try to keep to the drawings with thicknesses, I've not seen one with a thick top plate before so I thought you had made it thicker.

Am I right in thinking the bottom of your base isn't flat then? How will it collect the heat, if only the thick edges contact the heat source, or are you planning to run it on top of a cup that it will drop over?

Looking good and the new cylinder sounds promising - can't wait to see the result fingers crossed, I think you have a runner!  :thumbup:

Nice work.

Nick

Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2010, 11:45:59 AM »
Hi Nick, the recess in the plate is on the piston side, the base is totally flat.



This is actually called for in the plans as the recess allows the displacer cylinder walls to sit inside it and be glued/sealed in place. The only difference is, I started with 6mm thick ally and left the walls this thickness instead of the 3-4mm in the plans. I have now reduced it to whatever the plans say so I`m back inline with the plans!

Chris
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 11:54:20 AM by craynerd »

Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2010, 05:21:58 PM »
A quick update… last night I sealed the cylinder to the top plate:


and then I sealed the side of the displacer onto the top plate:


This evening I managed to cut the counter weight but I have to admit I struggled with this. At one point the flywheel was clearly falling to the bottom weighted position. The instructions, as I read them, was to keep trimming material from the weight until the flywheel landed at random positions. After quite a bit of material coming off the weight, I did get to a position where it became a little more random but it still favoured one side – I am concerned the power piston brass centre is too heavy as it is this falling to the lowest position which is causing the flywheel to end up at one side. That said, it isn`t as bad as it was so I`m hoping it is balanced correctly. If it doesn`t work it`ll definitely be my first “check”.
All the bits together and a picture of my trying to balance the system without the bottom plate.


And now the bottom plate sealed in position:


I guess the proof will be in the pudding when I try it out tomorrow when the sealant has gone off! 

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2010, 05:47:03 PM »
Looking good Chris

If you use ER collets on your mill you can use them for drilling that will give you more head height.

Stew
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 :wave:

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Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2010, 02:53:08 AM »
Hi Stew, yes I have a set of er32 collets so I guess your right, it`ll give me a little more height but still think it`ll be an issue.

It is 7:50am, I awake with my alarm call (daughter shouting she wants to get out of her cot), dashed downstairs to put it on a hot cup and coffee.

and.....

It doesn`t run !    :( :( :( :( :( :(

Humm, it does seem to be pushing itself around a little bit... OK, I`ve a few things to check now. All I can say right now beginners with B ands rhymes with hugger.

Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2010, 05:18:18 AM »


Is it just me or does it look like it is having a bit of a push behind it? Look at the first spin, the last two revolutions seem to get a "kick" ??

I`ve sadly ammended the first concern I had, that being the yoke to the power piston was too heavy and I`ve sealed it properly. Sadly, still no joy :(

Any thoughts or suggestions. I`ve also lifted it up and tried it in various positions and still no go.

Chris

Offline NickG

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2010, 07:23:19 AM »
Chris,

This nearly always happens with Stirling engines and I've heard LTD are notoriously difficult to get to run.

If you're confident of the seal between top and bottom plates I would start by taking the flywheel / frame assembly off, leave the the displacer piston rod in, submerge the displacement cylinder in water and blow into the power cylinder to see if any bubbles come from around the displacer piston rod. If it's a good seal there shouldn't be any, or very little.

It sounded like the power piston was a good fit in its cylinder, does it move very very freely because it needs to. The displacer rod also needs to run very very freely in its guide. What is the clearance between the displacer piston and cylinder wall? You don't want any unnecessary drag caused by friction or too small a clearance.

Finally, the crankshaft needs to be extremely free running. if you spin it over with nothing connected it should keep spinning for about 20 seconds.

Hope this helps, I know how difficult it was trouble shooting my stirling and flame gulper but if you take a systematic approach you'll get there.

Cheers

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2010, 07:25:10 AM »
Removed the bottom cover and re-balanced the system. I think I did this correctly yesterday dispite my concerns and so things haven`t changed at all.



Now, call it impatience, I call it experimenting but I sealed the bottom plate on again and with the sealant still tacky, I put it on a hot plate. The sealant started to buldge out as the gas expanded inside the engine....does this tell me that the system is well sealed and also, more importantly that I have a good seal on the power piston and displacer bushing?!?

What could be wrong ...  :smart:
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 07:33:40 AM by craynerd »

Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2010, 07:33:03 AM »
Chris,

This nearly always happens with Stirling engines and I've heard LTD are notoriously difficult to get to run.

If you're confident of the seal between top and bottom plates I would start by taking the flywheel / frame assembly off, leave the the displacer piston rod in, submerge the displacement cylinder in water and blow into the power cylinder to see if any bubbles come from around the displacer piston rod. If it's a good seal there shouldn't be any, or very little.

It sounded like the power piston was a good fit in its cylinder, does it move very very freely because it needs to. The displacer rod also needs to run very very freely in its guide. What is the clearance between the displacer piston and cylinder wall? You don't want any unnecessary drag caused by friction or too small a clearance.

Finally, the crankshaft needs to be extremely free running. if you spin it over with nothing connected it should keep spinning for about 20 seconds.

Hope this helps, I know how difficult it was trouble shooting my stirling and flame gulper but if you take a systematic approach you'll get there.

Cheers

Nick

Hi Nick

Thanks for the reply, we were typing at the same time! But if you look at my last response you`ll see I`ve ensured the system is balanced and I think you`ll see from the video that the crank seems to be freely moving. I`m happy with everything... I`ll have a bit more of a play once the sealant has gone off again. My main concern, and perhaps I should have changed it just now when I had the bottom plate off, but the displacer piston has a gap of about 1mm - 1.5mm. I know this is uneven but it is due to the foam board not cutting quite as clean as hoped in the end. Perhaps the 1.5mm gap is too large. The plans do state balsa wood but I know foam board is used. The plans also call for only 5mm thick balsa and this is quite thin, I know most stirlings take up a lot more of the displacer cylinders volume up with the piston itself!! Perhaps if after a little more fiddling I can`t get this to run, I`ll turn to the displacer cylinder and change that. Thanks for the support and advice..I appreciate it!

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2010, 03:12:21 PM »
Chris

I have no advice as I haven't built a LTD Sterling (yet!). Keep plugging at it though... you are bound to get it.


Eric
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Offline Dean W

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2010, 07:23:47 PM »
Chris, here's my take on your first video;  I think it's making a little power.  When you rotate it CCW, it seems to
try to make a little go of it.  When you rotate it CW, it appears that the engine doesn't want to go that way, and
just from looking at it, seems to be making power enough to try to "push back" when turned the wrong direction.

When the glue dries, try it again.  Use a little more heat to see if it will make even a bit of a show at working.  If it
does, you probably just have some tuning work to do in the area of the crank bearings and alignment of the crank
journals, and in tracking down friction in the power piston and the displacer bushing.
It may have been my imagination, but I think I heard a squeak a couple of time when you were spinning it. 
Squeaks are a pretty sure sign of friction on some point.

Sometimes it just takes a while to sort these out.  The first one I made took me many hours to get running,
mainly because I didn't know "how much is too much" when it came to friction.
The last one I built started on the first flip.  
You'll figure it out!  Keep at it.  (BTW, the balance looks quite good.)

Dean
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 07:26:58 PM by Dean W »
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2010, 03:19:13 AM »
Chris,

I think the word is, perseverance.......  :thumbup:

You are so close..... You will have a runner!  :)

David D
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2010, 03:26:11 AM »
Well it is back open again. The only thing that I wasn`t 100% happy with was the displacer piston. I`m going to get some fresh material for that and replace it, seal the unit back up again and then concentrate on mods to the top of the engine to get it running. Fingers crossed.

I was proud of myself last night, I opened it up and started making a new displacer. Things were going wrong so guess what I did.... yes, I managed to leave it and put it down for the night...  :med: :med: :med: :med:  I couldn`t believe myself!

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2010, 03:36:50 AM »
Keep at it Chris you have all the basics for a runner you just have to slowly work at it and tease it into life, your at the point that we all arive at with a new engine of really learning about it, making the engine is only part of the story, getting it running is the last and most important chapter.

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A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Offline NickG

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2010, 07:32:09 AM »
Not far off now Chris,

I think your gap of 1mm around the displacer piston probably was too big so it'll be that and friction that are your enemy. Sorry I haven't seen your videos yet but as Dean says, try more heat or a couple of ice cubes on top plate. I had to do the ice cube trick on my stirling to initially get it to run, which helped troubleshoot.

Something else that isn't easy to see but just worth checking, is there definitely 90 degrees in your timing? Things can slip / move etc.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2010, 12:25:32 PM »
Hi Chris, I just watched your balancing video, and it seemed to me you are a bit tight on the bearings there.  I've not built an LTD stirling, but studied them a bit, planning on one, but I have lots of experience balancing shafts in ancient military radio and radar equipment, and the flywheel should coast more I believe, yours seems to stop rather certainly and not just drift to a stop.  Another thing, the use of the foam seems to be standard these days, but punching out holes in the displacer, and inserting stainless steel wool, boiled clean, as a "regenerative material", accumulating heat as the displacer moves down, and being a very poor conductor of heat, giving it back up to the air, as the displacer moves up, is also supposed to be a substantial improvement in efficiency, with about a third of the displacer area being replaced by the stainless wool being the norm.  Friction is the main enemy in any event.  good luck, I hope to see a running video instead of a balancing video, next. :nrocks: mad jack

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2010, 03:35:56 PM »
Yes, me too MadJack. My lathe is currently burried under tools while I re-organise my workshop .I should be finished tidying by weekend and I`ll try again then - I think I needed a break from it anyway.

You know the steel wool - how does it stay in? I can imagine the stray whisker popping out and causing a problem!

Thanks for the motivation. I`ve not given up, just a short break!

Offline NickG

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2010, 04:58:39 PM »
Just seen the video Chris and it's almost running! Not far off at all, I had a Kontax one like the one David D showed us earlier in the thread and the moment of inertia of the flywheel on that was way higher than on yours  - wonder if that has much bearing on how easy it is to get them to run - possibly better with a higher moment of inertia although obviously the ones with CD's for flywheels have been proven to work too.

Did you try some ice cubes on top plate? I think it might run just with a bit more heat, it's nothing more than fine tuning any 'tight' spots and possibly that displacer.

Nick  :thumbup:
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2010, 10:08:42 AM »
Hi Chris,  the steel wool must be pushed and prodded into shape so it basically holds its own shape, with the holes in the foam providing a perimeter, and taking a needle or fine set of tweezers and weaving stray fibers back into the pad with some super glue to get the last stragglers to stay in place.  I'm curious, have you run an indicator around the test tube power cylinder and checked it for oval and taper?  I'm not sure how the test tubes are made, but I'm pretty sure they are not a ground finish inside, and you may well have less than a good piston seal.  I've got an "air-pot" dashpot, which is a ground glass cylinder with a graphite piston, intended to act as a shock absorber in some sort of electronics equipment, I got it as a "free sample", by mailing a card in, and the piston will stay at the top of its cylinder for hours with very little discernable drop, if the port is plugged completely.  It takes about twenty four hours to drop down if left totally alone.  If all else fails, I would try using conventional lapping techniques and lap out the power cylinder with perhaps a wood dowel lap, and very fine carborundum lapping compound, which is also a rather good way to see exactly how straight and round a glass cylinder is, as well.  I've found with my little flame sucker, it can easily be a dozen problems all at the same time stopping it from running, yet needing each and every fix, and not allowing a single one go undone and still work.  I questioned whether the new cylinder with actual head fins was necessary, after fixing everything else wrong, and put the old cylinder back on, with all the other problems still fixed, and while it was better than previous, it still did not even try to run, and immediately after putting back the new cylinder, it ran the first time I spun it over.  The only thing making me certain it was my problems, was the fact I've seen an engine exactly like mine, but with a quarter inch bore and a seven sixteenths stroke with a quarter next to it for size, just sitting there running a few thousand rpm like it was no problem.  I hope to see your LTD engine running like a top, soon.  I'm sure you'll get it all worked out, and you will know exactly where you fixed the most important impediment when you get to it. :thumbup: mad jack

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2010, 12:00:28 PM »
Heh, MadJack, not trying to steal craynerd´s thread, but the head fins in the flame licker are vitally important, like I told you elsewhere... 
I can´t be of much help with the LTD, having never built one myself. Although one is in my projects list. But from the videos it seems that it´s actually producing some power, but not enough to sustain the entire 360* rotation. So, you need more power, and less losses. More power= bigger heat differential, "tighter" power piston. Less losses= reducing friction in the bearings, linkages, wherever it might feel tight. Just one thought. Instead of a CD, I might try using an old hard disk platter, for the flywheel. They come in two varieties, metal and glass disks. Either one would have far greater a momentum than a polycarbonate CD.
And I´m sure you get a runner, it´s not missing much.
 :wave:
Olli
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2010, 12:26:22 PM »
Not to steal this thread myself, but I must admit you were absolutely spot on, with regard to the head fins, cidron, and as a matter of fact, I took the engine and mounted it to the cylinder head of a ten horse Tecumseh engine which died, just to get the extremely greater heat dissapation the head fins give, and the engine runs essentially till I shut it down.  I would second that motion for a hard drive disc for the greater flywheel weight and effect, the videos both show the engine is very close to running, and just lacking the last little bit.  Powdered graphite is sold for use in locks for doors and such, and a tiny bit on the displacer shaft and in the power cylinder could help a bit.  As cidron says, you are definitely close to having a runner. :headbang: mad jack

Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2010, 08:04:17 AM »
Well, I hate to be defeated but this has beat me. I`ve spent hours and hours on this and still no luck. I`m sure it`ll be something obvious, there have been attempts when it felt like it wanted to "go" but could never quite pull itself around. So, sadly, it has the same fate as my other attempt and to the shelf it goes..... unless I can tempt anyone to have a quick look at it for me and give me your opinions and perhaps a bit of time..???... I`d pay for P&P both way!!
I`ve always wanted one of these and I`m gutted to see it not running
Chris

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2010, 09:04:58 AM »
After seeing your last post, I went back and looked at the thread from the start.  I think you are very close.  Your balance looks good, but I think it's deceptive.

You have way too much friction in the system.   That flywheel should turn over many times with a flick of the finger before stoping.  It should also "coast" to a stop, as madjackghengis observed.  Thses things have next to zero torque, and will not overcome

Loosen thing up a little, and I'll bet you find that your balance is still a bit off (but close), and that it will run after you dial that in.
Creating scrap, one part at a time

Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2010, 02:55:58 PM »
The crank seems free running in the pivots, I feel any friction is coming from the power piston and more than anything, the displacer rod bush - if I free them up I`m worried then I`ll have air escaping! Hummmm...  :( :( :( :( :(

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2010, 11:57:04 AM »
Hi Chris, if you'd like I'd take you up on the checking it out, but I fear the postage would be a killer for you.  I've just gone through your build log and this is what I see, and I'll try to keep it in order of priority.  First, I have no confidence in your cylinder.  Test tubes are not ground and lapped, so it is not round nor straight, I would almost guarantee.  The fix is to machine a piece of polycarbonate or some other hard plastic to just barely fit in the cylinder, put some grooves to hold lapping compound, and I would rub rouge on it, lapping it longitudinally, while rotating the lap back and forth, and if the cylinder is true, you will get even lapping evidence throughout the cylinder.  The best lap would be one longer than the cylinder, probably twice as long or a bit more.  You can "prove out the cylinder by coating the piston with prussian blue, and pushing it down in the cylinder and pull it out taking care to avoid any turning or side pressure.  If the cylinder is round and straight, you will get at least a 75% transfer of blue and it will be evenly spread with the 25% max, being spots disconnected from each other.  Knowing the quality of test tubes from experience, I wouldn't even bother, but would lap the cylinder from the start, and if you can't get the one in place out, break it out, after you've lapped a new one, and are completely happy with it.  Your lapping is done when you've got as near 100% cross-hatch as you can get, but you must ensure no dirt or dust gets in the lap.  You can also turn a piston out of some plastic or metal, just for the use of testing your cylinder in place, making it just barely fit, and using it with the prussian blue.  Secondly, once you are sure you have a perfect cylinder or as close as possible, you will need to turn a new graphite piston, but it will be easier this time, because your cylinder will be more accurate and a better gauge than the last.  Your trunion in the piston should be as small as possible and aluminum for mass purposes.  Third, you should have little discernable friction in the graphite displacer rod bushing unless it is cocked, or under pressure.  Once reamed in line, there should be no discernable friction there.  Fourth, your connecting rods should be loose enough on their pins to have no discernable friction there as well.  The possibility of excess glue on the pin is something to investigate for and you should be able to feel any friction when turning the connecting rods around their respective crank pins, and there should again, be no discernable friction.  If they are just a little snug, a bit of shaking side to side while rotating them around their pins should move sufficient metal to relieve any friction if there is no glue, and the pins are truly round.  Next, the main shaft, with no connections, but rods freely moving, should be turned not by the wheel, which gives enormous mechanical advantage, but removes any slight "feel" you might get, but turn the shaft in your fingers by the end of the bare shaft, or somewhere in the middle, where your fingers can judge any force necessary to overcome friction.  Again there should be no discernable friction here as well.   There seemed to be some in the main shaft from your videos, but that is not as good as feeling it, so I may be wrong.  A little loose is better than dead on, if you put your two respective "cranks" together with the main shaft running through both side plates of both cranks, and sawing out the middle of the shaft, once the pins were glued in, it should be in line.  If you didn't do that, it is quite possible each crank is performing its own elipse, and causing the excess friction.  If this is the case, I'd re-do the cranks, putting all the cheeks in their proper respective places on a single piece of shaft, gluing the pins in place at the same time as gluing the cheeks to the shaft, but only after getting all aligned and in proper timing to each other, and giving over night for the glue to set, so you don't disturb your accurate setup while cutting out the shaft between the cheeks of the respective cranks.  At this point, I would mount everything but the flywheel, with the connecting rods attached to the displacer rod and the piston, and turn the shaft with your fingers pinched, to get the best feel of what actual friction you will have accumulated.  It should almost be free enough to have momentum past spinning, even without the flywheel.  If it does, then it is time to mount the flywheel and balance it.  If it does not, as per my own experience, you must find where the friction has crept in, and it will be in one of the places you've just been through.  It will most likely be a niggling little thing, such as a slight bend in a connecting rod or a pin where it connects to the displacer rod or the piston.  Spinning it with light machine oil on the metal to metal bearing surfaces with a drill motor at a moderate speed so as not to bend the crank from the inertia of the displacer, should free up any friction in the shaft at this point.  Once the flywheel is balanced to compensate for the mass of the displacer, it should run, as those are all the essential points absent the basic concept of a stirling, the sealing and good heat transfer.  A "dashpot" made for many purposes in both electronics and in vacuum control circuits is commonly sold which is a ground, lapped and polished pyrex cylinder, with a fitted piston is commonly available here, I expect you can find similar there looking up "dashpot" as the key word, if you wish to avoid the work of fitting the power piston, however there is no reason you can't equal what they do, if you start right.  For a new cylinder, I would put a piece of hard plastic round stock in the lathe with double the length of the cylinder sticking out, machine it to a snug fit and spin it in the lathe, working the test tube cylinder back and forth on it until is moves freely.  I'd either split the plastic, or mill our a section half way through, in the middle of the working section of the lap, before using it, and take another piece already turned to the exact same size, and mill half of it away, and drill for two pins to hold the two parts in alignment, with the pins fixed in the main part of the lap, and then, once the cylinder tube is free on the lap, adding a piece of fine cigarette paper between the two parts of the lap to expand it, and continuing, doing this each time the cylinder gets free, before it gets loose, and continuing until you have an even lap as close to 100% as you are willing to work it.  The displacer rod bushing should be reamed to exact size, and if it is a two part bushing, both parts in place for the reaming.  That should eliminate any friction in it.  I supect your piston and cylinder is the power issue, as you can probably tell.  The lapping of the glass cylinder can also be done with a hardwood dowel, however I've had problems with warpage once I've cut one, because of grain patterns, that's why I recommend the plastic rod.  I believe it is acetal or delrin I've used, not polycarbonate.  Delrin is very cheap and easy to get, so I would go with it.  I hope you can find some use in this, I'd hate to see you shelve a project with the labor in it, you will someday look at it and have to fix it anyway, that is my own experience. :poke: :scratch: jack

Offline NickG

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2010, 02:04:11 AM »
Chris,

just to give you an idea of friction required, not sure if you've seen Jan's troubleshooting tips on his other LTD page here http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu/Webpaginas/pagina_koffiekop_jan/koffiejan_frameset.htm

Notibly though, "The unloaded fly wheel must rotate for at least 4 minutes after you gave it a firm push by hand" and "With only the displacer coupled to the fly wheel this rotating time must be at least 15 seconds" finally "With coupled displacer and working piston this rotating time must be between 5 and 10 seconds (10 to 20 strokes)"

there are also guidelines on permissible air leaks, I would strongly recommend you look at that page, following his guidance was what got my stirling running.


Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2010, 04:01:19 PM »
Guys, sorry for not replying. I did read both your posts when you made them. I have tried a lot of what you said. Infact me and Kwacks took a look at this and sadly I think there are a few issues. As MadJack mentioned, the testtube for a start is just not accurate enough. I think I`m going to have to start this one over again. I need to change the power piston cylinder and a few other problems but it`ll have to be when the Stuart is finished.

I`ll get back on this asap.

Chris

Offline NickG

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2010, 03:37:42 AM »
Glad you've done some troubleshooting chris, would be a shame to leave it.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2010, 11:39:11 AM »
Chris, I learned about "straight and round" dealing with hydraulic lifters in engines, needing a couple of tenths clearance, and less ovality and taper, and this is followed in hydraulics all the way through.  Then, when you get into diesels, the injector pumps and injectors are even more precision, and demanding.  The use of a wood or plastic "soft lap" is the best way to get something as hard as glass perfect, and with care, you can keep taper and roundness within a tenth of a thousandth.  It is best when you can use something like the finest valve grinding compound to take out the "meat" of the out of round and any taper, and gradually get finer, so you don't waste time trying to cut lots with the fine compound.  I think once you've got a good power piston seal, the other niggling details will fall, one at a time, into place and you will see it run as it should.  I never would have bothered going back to my failed flamesucker, had it not been for seeing the exact model of mine, running on this forum, and goading me.  After I get the radial engine done, and the Ajax Steam engine, and The Poppin', if you're still down with regards to the LTD stirling, I'll build one I've been meaning to, and give you a goad, maybe, or at least competition as to who gets one running.  :poke: :headbang: :nrocks:  jack

Offline raynerd

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2012, 07:29:09 PM »
Well it has been a year and a half since anything was updated on this post. I have spent hours and hours on the engine at the time trying to get it to run but with no avail. I could "feel" it pushing and wanting to go but it would never take off. Anyway, a month or so a go a fellow madmodder allowed me to send it down to him for inspection. Within a few nights I had a message back with videos of it running.

As presumed at the time, the test tube glass power piston was not true enough and this has been lapped. The pillars holding the main crank shaft have also been aligned.

It came back to me in pieces and it took me two nights to reassemble it so it would work. I spent hours on it again and it just wouldn`t go!!!! Anyway, when it finally set off I took these pictures.

So before I show, a huge huge thanks to Pete...   :beer:  I owe you one for sure as this thing has been driving me bonkers for years!

It runs every time now it is together and setup but I`m going to make so finer adjustments so it will run better.




Offline NickG

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2012, 10:11:10 PM »
Well done Chris and Pete,

Fantastic, surely the hardest type of engine to get to run.

In the last couple of years you've made an LTD engine, an i.c. engine and a clock which I think are amazing achievements!  :bow:
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2012, 02:18:13 AM »
Chris.
I'd forgotten, you'd not actually made this one run! 

Well done Pete, for the tweaking!   :clap: :clap:

It runs at the right sort of rpm too! I like to see the wheels go around....... :thumbup:

David D
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Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2012, 04:30:40 AM »
Chris just realised why it took so long to get it working?

You were too close to the kettle  :lol:
Once in hole stop digging.

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2012, 11:36:09 AM »
Awesome job guys. It looks like a smooth runner.

...
As presumed at the time, the test tube glass power piston was not true enough and this has been lapped. The pillars holding the main crank shaft have also been aligned.
...

So the cylinder was lapped? How was this done?

Eric
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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2012, 04:41:44 AM »
Eric, not sure, I`ve been waiting for Pete to reply...I`m sure he`ll pop up in the next few days. The lapping has worked really well it seems and has certainly taken down a few high spots and you can see this where the glass has lightly clouded due to rubbing. I`m not sure how he did it though.

Chris

Offline Pete.

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Re: Jan Ridders' Simple LTD Stirling Engine - craynerd build log
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2012, 06:56:10 PM »
Hey guys - sorry I had missed this, probably just because of pressures of work.

I found that the test tube that the cylinder was cut from rather than being round was actually slightly four-lobed, and this was causing havoc with the piston-cylinder fit. I found a marker pen with a strong parallel body which tapered to the end and wrapped some emery paper around then sat for a good while watching the TV and gently sanding the inside with this makeshift tool to round the cylinder ID off. Also tried some autobody cutting paste which turned to be too coarse and caused the paper to bind badly so persevered with the emery and finished it off with fine wet & dry with soapy water to improve the inside surface and reduce the friction.

I kept this up until the graphite piston would slowly sink in the tube when stood end-up on my desk but drop freely if I lifted it.