Remember the "Green Steam Engine ™" ?

[Bernd]

I was digging through my favorites tonight for something to do before bedtime. (Can't make any noise, the wifes in bed already. She gets up at 2:30AM.)

I see he has designed a few more steam engines. I'm always surprised at his horsepower rating of these steam engines.

What got my attention was watching the Z8 engine running in slow motion. I was watching the flywheel. It's got a bit of wobble in it. I don't think I'd want to buy one of his engines if he can't even get a flywheel to run straight.

Personnal opinion, I"ve always thought this guy to be a rip off artist. I realy like his claim that he has fractional HP (believeable) to hundreds of HP (un-believable).

Your own mileage may vary on this one. It's always fun to see what he has to offer.  

Bernd

P.S. watch the video with the 5 different steam engines. The interesting part is near the end. His claim to there horsepower seems a little high to me.

P.P.S. scroll down to the subject line "Two Cylinder Direct Drive Genarator". Didn't they have a bit of a fit over on HMEM about using one of these for a boiler?  

[Stilldrillin]

Have you got a link, Bernd? 

David D

[dsquire]

David D.

I think this is the link that Bernd was talking about.

http://www.greensteamengine.com/

Cheers 

Don

[Stilldrillin]

Thanks Don! 

I thought that project had died, by now....... 

David D

[Bernd]

I must have been asleep writing that one.

Don got the link right. No use posting it again.

Thanks Don for pulling my fat back out of the fire. 

Bernd

[Bernd]

Thanks Don! 

I thought that project had died, by now....... 

David D

So did I. Like I said I like to go and see if anything has changed. I see he's designed a few more engines. At one time he advertised in one of the US modeling magzines. A few people wrote in about him and I haven't seen any more adds.

One of my concerns was what he suggests to use a boiler. Very dangerous.

Bernd

[cedge]

The newer designs are old technology with a proven track record. Swash Plate engines have powered naval torpedos for many years. The original Green engine aways felt more than a wee bit Rube Goldberg to me.

Steve

[Bluechip]

Cedge

Maybe more like the Siemens Drive, rather than a swash plate. Not that I'm an authority ...

I remember a 4-cyl Axial Stirling Cycle engine in Model Engineer mag. made by David Urwick a long time ago. Maybe early '70's.

Cannot remember whether it was a build series or just an article.

Some reference to it here ..

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=829043

I have a small pic. of the engine on P47 of 'The Stirling Engine Manual' by James Rizzo.
As it is obviously copyright material, I wont reproduce it.

EDIT ...   Found a bit more for anyone with access,  ME published in Dec. 1980 : Jan. 1981. : Jun. 1982



Dave BC

[Rob.Wilson]

I would say they have been around for a wile ,,,,,,,,,,,,, nothing new ,,,,,,,,, this one looks the job 



Dose copy write still apply after 125 years 


Rob 

[Bluechip]

Hi Rob

That looks interesting    ... some sort of oscillating piston ??

Can you turn the page now please, read that one ...   

Dave BC

[Pete49]

I think that copyright dies off 75 years after the death of the holder but that may have changed
Cheers
Pete

[PTsideshow]

My hard covers of ME are copyrighted from the 70's,

When you can't get a weed wacker, or lawn mower built by anybody. When everybody is making and building green products with out rhyme or reason.
He always seems not to have a reason for the big powered stuff not to run other than is very bad video. 

He is still collect investors so he can continue the life style he has become accustomed to 

[PTsideshow]

None of the generators are ever producing electricity  As the two wires are just jutting into the air. Unless he is also working on Tesla's wire transmission of electricity    and the things called generators all look to be lower volt/amperage ones. Or maybe they are just the shells of them.

Over on the Village Press home shop board, they did have a long thread on these engines. a couple of people had bought the plans. And it seems that the plans are lacking in some info and Mr Green wasn't as much help as his web site claims.

Add to the fact that the engine and steam generation, in general aren't high energy efficient. There seems too be only to green's with the engine.

His surname and that he is still bringing in the green from the web.

As with the other guy with the self contained, burn anything steam boiler/ engine that can be scaled from small to large trucks, boats etc.

http://www.cyclonepower.com/index.html They too are still trying to get somebody to buy their equipment and put it to use.

You know things might not be what they claim when the biggest news on their web site is a press release on the engine being mentioned in a Detroit web blog. Wonder if their troll will pick this up and turn it in to a press release. This is the engine last year that was built into the battlefield robot that could burn corpses, that caused quite an uproar! The post and links about that are on this forum.
 

[Bernd]

The comments on this thread have been very interesting. I wondered what would happen with this subject.

If I remember right he also had/has a website selling vitamins or something like that.

Bernd

[PTsideshow]

The comments on this thread have been very interesting. I wondered what would happen with this subject.
Bernd

Well as your sig line says it all!  can't fix stupid
And they will be lining up to give him money.

There are more sheepole out there now than ever before from the ones that will believe any and everything a politician says. (forgetting the proven axiom, If their lips are moving they are lying!) To if it's on the inter net it must be real,and the younger ones that follow the tech bug to past the point of common sense. Two tween girls walking next to each other by my house when I was cutting the grass. Both txting away maddly! One stops and punches the other one, after she was texted something, by her friend walking next to each other.

They aren't even interacting with each other when next to each other by talking.
A sad state of affairs, and a dim view ahead for the world of our old age. But then again with the new health care we really won't need to worry about it.
 

[Rob.Wilson]

Maybe ,, we , us,, someone should build one of Mr Greens engines , and test it out ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 


Rob

[PTsideshow]

The ones that bought the plans, on the other forums over the last couple of years. Most couldn't get them to work. And he was non responsive after the first you must have not followed my directions emails, check out the thread on HMEM I think only one got it to work and only after extensive re-engineering. And the people on Home shop Machinist that bought em weren't impressed either. You might pick up a set of plans cheaper on either one of those forums.
 

[Bernd]

Hey Glenn,

From what you've written I think you and I think along the same lines. As far as my sig line. I believe in that 100% as I meet more and more that just don't get it. 

The reason for posting this subject was more to point toward the use of a Pressure Cooker as a boiler. I'm sure you read the thread on HMEM about the use of PC. Seems like all the experts tell you how dangerous they are and not to use them, but they never say why they should not use them. None of them seem to want to take the time to explain in more detail how to build a boiler and why they have all the saftey devices, plus the proper care and feeding of a boiler.

Bernd

[kwackers]

Hey Glenn,

From what you've written I think you and I think along the same lines. As far as my sig line. I believe in that 100% as I meet more and more that just don't get it. 

The reason for posting this subject was more to point toward the use of a Pressure Cooker as a boiler. I'm sure you read the thread on HMEM about the use of PC. Seems like all the experts tell you how dangerous they are and not to use them, but they never say why they should not use them. None of them seem to want to take the time to explain in more detail how to build a boiler and why they have all the saftey devices, plus the proper care and feeding of a boiler.

Bernd

Is it not obvious why one wouldn't use a pressure cooker? Just thinking of the pressure on the lid, the crap 'lip' that holds it on makes me want to run and hide! 

[PTsideshow]

That and the fiddling with the relief device to get it to stop leaking, I had a teacher bring a garage sale find of a Pressure cooker that she wanted me to fix. She meet me in the main hallway of the school. As anybody could plainly see, with the hex bolt screwed in the hole where the pressure relief valve was supposed to go, let alone the rubber gasket material hanging down from under the lid.

She put it down in the hall as she was tired of carrying it. And that's were I left it, I wouldn't even touch it. As she would blame me for doing something to it, when it let go. Till the day I retired she blamed me for making her look stupid! of course she never needed my help for that before.

Her rational thought was since I was a a steam engineer I could fix it for her. I told her I didn't make house calls, or fix pots and pans 

People don't think, and they don't understand or really care to clutter their mind with things that don't relate to fashion, stars or other more important things.
 

[Dean W]

The reason for posting this subject was more to point toward the use of a Pressure Cooker as a boiler. I'm sure you read the thread on HMEM about the use of PC. Seems like all the experts tell you how dangerous they are and not to use them, but they never say why they should not use them. None of them seem to want to take the time to explain in more detail how to build a boiler and why they have all the saftey devices, plus the proper care and feeding of a boiler.

Bernd

Bernd, there have been a few explanations on HMEM on why NOT to use a pressure cooker.  There are also a great number of threads
dealing with building a proper boiler, and boilers in progress.  If you don't see what you want to know, go to the "Boilers" section and
ASK.  There are a number of build threads there that go into great detail.

Dean

[Bernd]

Bernd, there have been a few explanations on HMEM on why NOT to use a pressure cooker.  There are also a great number of threads
dealing with building a proper boiler, and boilers in progress.  If you don't see what you want to know, go to the "Boilers" section and
ASK.  There are a number of build threads there that go into great detail.

Dean

Dean,

I've gone back and looked at the boiler building threads. The first that comes to mind is Firebirds thread on building a boiler. A very fine thread on how to. And I believe was the first thorough thread on building a boiler. The second one that stands out is Dusti's thread of building a boiler. Interesting to see the stress analysis that he has done.

Now, I've been a model railroader ever since I can remember and always had an interest in steam. I also belonged to a live steam club for several years and got to see how the models were built. Reading up on steam engine explosions I've learned about the crown sheet and that it should be covered with water at all times. How do you know the boiler water is at the proper level? With the water sight glass, or try cocks, as fitted on the first boiler designs. I've also read about how a pressure releive valve is supposed to work on a working boiler. And I know that saftey plugs are screwed into the crown sheet so if the firebox gets to hot they will melt and doss the fire out.

Have I ever built a boiler? NO. But I believe I've read enough and have enough common sense to build a safe boiler and would know how to use it. What are some of my sourses, Hioroka's series on geared engines. Early magazine articles in Live Steam. A book called Model Boilermaking, Designing, making and testing by G.L. Pearce. And some others that I don't remember right now, plus the fact that I can ask questions on the forums about what I don't understand.

With all that knowledge at my finger tips I wouldn't consider myself any were near an expert.

Ok, now on to why I started this thread and why I've made the comment I have. I dug around and found what I was looking for. This is the question Karl (aka Zee) asked "If pressure cookers are not safe as a steam source (and I think any pressure vessel is to some degree unsafe)...then why? What are the dangers? I know even cooking can cause overpressure." In the thread "causing upset" reply #23. When I read Tel's reply (#27) I have to ask myself, "Dose he really know how much steam is generated?" I remember my mother canning veggies using a pressure cooker and my wife also uses one. So I'm familar with pressure cookers. Also I don't think that was a proper answer. To me any pressure vessel that is not being tended to while in use can and will be dangerous. So with that in mind would you stand next to me while I was using a pressure cooker to run a stean engine that will run on 15psi or will you stand next to my 1 1/2" scale live steam engine with the propane valve wide open heating the water while I'm off wandering around talking to other people? I'll bet you pick the live steamer, why? Beacuse you'll hope that I've built the saftey valves properly. How will you know if I did?

I'm sure you can see where I'm going here. I'm not trying to start a heated debate but hopefuly some understanding. To me any boiler should be attended to while in operation. It should be run within it's limits and the person running it should understand the how's and why's.

Now here's something of interest if anybody wants to understand the anatomoy of a boiler explosion. I believe it's a must read. I'm sure that many in the USA are familar with. Read the report and then look at the pictures. These are the kinds of answers that should be given when boiler questions come up as to their saftey.

     http://www.dli.mn.gov/ccld/BoilerIncidentsHobby.asp

     http://www.dli.mn.gov/ccld/BoilerIncidentsHobby1.asp

Here's a boiler that should have been safe, but............

So my question is which pressure cooker is safer the one on the stove or the one with wheels on it?

My answer to that would be neither if boiler saftey is ignored. Problem is you can't teach common sense. That's all it takes some times is a bit of common sense and understanding what your working with.

And if you still think pressure cookers are unsave, take a look at Elmer Verbergs engine number #26 "Live Steam Boiler and Engine". Take note of his fill plug. Also I believe the engine is designed to run on about 5 to 10 pounds of steam.

For those of you who don't have drawings they are available here, go to http://john-tom.com/ElmersEngines/25_26_WobblerBoiler.pdf

That's it for now.

Regards,
Bernd

Note: Just found another report of a boiler explosion that happened in Pennsylvania in 1995 on a tourist line. Interesting read, also recommended for the boiler minded.

Ammended to add link to report. http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1996/sir9605.pdf

[kwackers]

.....
And if you still think pressure cookers are unsave, take a look at Elmer Verbergs engine number #26 "Live Steam Boiler and Engine". Take note of his fill plug. Also I believe the engine is designed to run on about 5 to 10 pounds of steam.
.....

Phew! When I read pressure cookers I had visions of people trying to get 80psi out of them!

[Bernd]

.....
And if you still think pressure cookers are unsave, take a look at Elmer Verbergs engine number #26 "Live Steam Boiler and Engine". Take note of his fill plug. Also I believe the engine is designed to run on about 5 to 10 pounds of steam.
.....

Phew! When I read pressure cookers I had visions of people trying to get 80psi out of them!

That is one of the problems. A pressure cooker is designed to operate at no more than 15 psi or perhaps 20 psi. The pressure vessel needs to be designed for how much you will need to power your engine. You can't take a pressure vessel or boiler design that gives you only 20 psi to operate an engine that needs at least 50 psi to run. Another factor is how fast will the boiler turn water into steam to do any useful work.

A boiler needs constant attention to make sure that everything is functioning properly and that it is run properly within it's limitations.

Bernd