Author Topic: Stuart 10V Build Log  (Read 85497 times)

Offline raynerd

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2010, 06:52:24 PM »
haha, thanks again for your replies. MadJack - I`m along way from a vid of it running...but I`m about to go to bed so I guess I can dream!!

OK, well first problem this evening of my own doing! Despite reading through and even replying to Andy`s message earlier today regarding the length of the cylinder and the fact that the ports should be central to the length. I`ve managed to do a superb bore that I`m really pleased with and then I went and faced off the bottom but not taken quite enough off. I don`t know how I`ve done it as I`ve checked and double checked but I`ve pulled it off the lathe with 0.03" to come off the full length and then realised that will make it short on that side!!

The cylinder should be 1.125" length with the ports symmetrical. My cylinder is 1.155" with the ports symmetrical and centered!

So my dilemma is that I need to take .015 off each side but of course now I`ve done the bore and faced up the bottom side symmetrical to it, I can only remove material from the one side (the full 0.03”). I know for sure I`d mess up my bore if I tried to recentre it and I don`t have any more material left to centre and then take a few more skims to true the bore up ....

I know this isn`t ideal but for 0.03" too large cylinder, could I increase the piston rod by 0.03" (or would it be half of that 0.015" ?)

Advice appreciated.

Despite my problem, I do have a few pictures!
My Go-no go gauge I knocked up for testing the bore:


I don`t know why I`m putting this up as this is where I`ve mucked up!! I need 0.015” more off this side!!!


Despite being deflated with my muck up, I still wanted to mock up the sort of setup for truing up the steam face I`m going to use later on. This is what I was thinking – will remove the vice and bolt the angle plate to the table:


Anyway….I can`t go anywhere until I sort out this cylinder length. Any suggestions would be appreciated. It would be simple to take it to size, the issue is of course facing up true to the bore which of course should be done in one opperation.  





Offline raynerd

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2010, 03:31:56 AM »
Couldn`t sleep thinking about how I was going to correct this.

I have decided I can`t re-centre it, I just couldn`t get it accurate enough. I also can`t rebore it to bring it to centre, not enough material.

My cylinder is actually 0.03" too long. Would it be worth, as I suggested last night, leaving the cylinder as it is and increasing both the piston rod and the rod the works the slide valve by 0.015". This will bring the piston to the centre of the current cylinder, I`ll just have a 0.015" bigger gap than expected at both ends, but in my eyes, that won`t matter?? It`ll just stop it bottoming out ?

I thought I could take the 0.015" from the top side if I like but that won`t do anything will it, I`d still have to increase the piston and sliding valve rod lengths). If anything it is the bottom side (which is the faced up side which I can`t touch) that needs the 0.015" off then it would be to size!!!!

Advice would be much much appreciated!    :( :( :(


Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2010, 03:44:23 AM »
Chris,
I don't think the cylinder oal matters, that much. As long as the valve chest and cover can be made to match.  :thumbup:

I think you may do more harm than good. If you try to correct it now.  :scratch:

But! Who am I to give advice? I've never made one myself......  ::)

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline NickG

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2010, 04:05:21 AM »
Chris,

I don't understand why you can't just skim 0.015" off each end?

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline matnewsholme

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2010, 04:30:38 AM »
Couldn`t sleep thinking about how I was going to correct this.

I have decided I can`t re-centre it, I just couldn`t get it accurate enough. I also can`t rebore it to bring it to centre, not enough material.

My cylinder is actually 0.03" too long. Would it be worth, as I suggested last night, leaving the cylinder as it is and increasing both the piston rod and the rod the works the slide valve by 0.015". This will bring the piston to the centre of the current cylinder, I`ll just have a 0.015" bigger gap than expected at both ends, but in my eyes, that won`t matter?? It`ll just stop it bottoming out ?

I thought I could take the 0.015" from the top side if I like but that won`t do anything will it, I`d still have to increase the piston and sliding valve rod lengths). If anything it is the bottom side (which is the faced up side which I can`t touch) that needs the 0.015" off then it would be to size!!!!

Advice would be much much appreciated!    :( :( :(



chris

2 methods spring to mind. Either clamp the face your sure is square to the bore down to your mill table,fly cut 0.015 off the other end (thus making it parallel to first face. then flip and take .015 off other end.
If you want to do it lathe then turn a scrap bit of bar in lathe so its a nice sliding fit in bore. without removing this bar from chuck put a couple of drops of super glue on it and slide cylinder on making sure you leave enough gap between back face and chuck to get a facing tool in. then face .15 from both ends. You may need to use tailstock support on the scrap bar to allow it to extend far enough out from chuck to get a facing tool down back of cylinder.

mat

Offline kwackers

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2010, 04:35:47 AM »
Don't bother.

The slide valve is adjustable and there's enough room in the chest to adjust out the error without it hitting the end of the chest. Even if it did, you could easily take of the 15 thou of the inside of the chest to give the valve space.

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2010, 04:46:02 AM »
You are hitting and hilighting every known problem imagineable when working from castings.

People imagine it is easier to work from castings than making from barstock, nothing could be further from the truth.

The first thing you must do when working with them is find your most critical datum point on each and every casting, and work everything out from that. In this case, it is the centre of your steam ports.

Find that position first by using your height gauge on your surface plate, blue up and scribe the centre line. Without touching anything, with a bit of maths, you can easily work out the height gauge settings for the top and bottom of the cylinder. Scribe those two lines on there. Now you should be able to split those lines by machining and you shouldn't be more than 0.002" out from centre and the actual length requirement. If you don't go too mad with the cutting, and take it very steady, measuring all the time, you should be able to get the cylinder length spot on.

As already mentioned, in this case, you are lucky in that the positions of the slide valve can be adjusted out. I have shown above how you should have gone about it if starting from scratch.

Your piston will be the next critical bit, and for that, your working datum should be the centre of the gudgeon pin hole. By working from that, your should be able to get the top and bottom in just the right places.

So really before doing anything else, go over your plans, find the datum points for each and every casting and mark them up on the plans with a pencil (not ink), and also put your new dimensions working out from it. Some parts might have more than one critical datum point at the start, so be careful when you are starting out.

As you machine each datum point, more datum points will be made that you can work to.

If you just dive in and machine willy nilly, you will end up buying a lot of replacement castings.

In a few months, I will be starting to work from castings again, after many years layoff from them. I have already started on my plans, finding out just where I am going to make my first cut.


Bogs
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2010, 05:38:23 AM »
Thanks for the replies...it seems I have been lucky here in the fact that I can adjust the slide valve - thanks Kwacks, that did reassure me when I read it  :med:

 
John, nice to hear from you again and thanks for your replies. I haven`t had to buy a new casting yet thankfully although I am in two minds as to whether I should buy the badly machined con rod that was done before I recieved the kit or if I should make it again from bar stock - however that is of now fault of my own. I have however, been waiting and putting off ordering this to save on postage should I need to order anything else while I build this!

Anyway...I`ll keep plugging away and be thankful that I got lucky this time.

If I remove it from the vice and bolt it to the table, does my method for facing off the steam surface look OK? - I just need to figure out how to set it up as parallel with the table as I can prior to cutting.

Cheers
Chris


Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2010, 06:39:45 AM »
The main critical bit is getting the valve face parallel to the bore. So your valve operating linkage runs parallel to the con rod centre.

I have attached a C-o-C to show how that can be achieved.

The diameter of the bar isn't critical as long as it doesn't bend when you push down on it and it has parallel sides, but the larger the better.

If you can mount it up like this in your vice, push down and tighten up, the port face will be parallel in the X axis to your bore. The only thing you have to watch out for is that it is square in the Y axis as well before taking your cut. But if you do it right, that should almost automatically align itself.


Bogs
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Offline NickG

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2010, 07:06:09 AM »
Chris, either of the ways shown will work for milling the valve face. In the first one which I and a couple of others suggested, you've got to assume your angle plate is square and your end face is perpendicular to the bore - it should be as you did that in one setting. .... this is the reason you can easily just put it back in the lathe with the square face against the chuck - skim one end to length - they're now both square to bore, flip round skim other end to ensure ports are dead centre.

Bogs method is technically better as you're only only assuming your milling table is good there - it is probably also a more rigid setup. Take the cut in the x axis though as otherwise you'll need your mill trammed spot on too.

As somebody else said though, it's not going to make a great deal of difference to the running, you can adjust the valve on its rod and having 30 thou dead space in the top of the cylinder won't matter a jot - what is the clearance when at top and bottom dead centre?

Good points about castings by Bogs, I tried to make some stuff from castings when I was really young, the first things I tried to machine - you won't be surprised I just wasted them all. Haven't touched a casting since but am beginning to think I want to try a small engine like yours.

Cheers,

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline kwackers

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2010, 07:22:55 AM »
Funny isn't it?

I've never really thought about castings before - just got on and machined them. It just seems to make sense that you need to extract the finished product 'out' of the casting so you make sure you can!

Mind you a fair chunk of the machining I've done over the years is from castings so perhaps I'm just used to them. I have had a few failures though! :bugeye:

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2010, 07:38:01 AM »
Kwackers,

A few casting suppliers nowadays seem to be using old castings as their pattern, rather than the corrected size patterns. This means that after metal shrinkage has occurred, the castings are in fact sometimes undersized.

So the first thing you must do is check that the bit you want to make will actually be able to come out of that casting. I don't know whether this is true of Stuart Turner, but a few people I know are complaining that after getting their datum points set, there is not enough metal left to put the fixings in. So then you have to resort to fiddling with dimensions, not just on the part you are making, but on the mating parts as well.

That is why you should check all your castings first, and mark up your start points.


Bogs
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Offline NickG

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2010, 08:07:19 AM »
That would be really annoying as the only reasons I can see for buying something made from castings is so there's less work to do i.e. less material to machine away and so it looks top notch and more representative of the real thing, but if you have to start fiddling things it defeats the point of trying to build a recognised off shelf design and could compromise the overall look.

Does anybody know a supplier of really good quality casting / material kits?

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline raynerd

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2010, 08:19:58 AM »
Just to remind you that these Stuarts look very good! it was my error!!!

Chris

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2010, 10:55:23 AM »
Sorry to slightly hijack, but just to answer Nick's question.

My next two kits that I have already bought are from Bruce Engineering. They are very good quality and have plenty of spare meat on them.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=9233.0

They do some really nice out of the ordinary engines from the Anthony Mount stable. They really are outstanding engines, but not for the total beginner.

You will need to download their large catalogue from here.

http://www.pollymodelengineering.co.uk/sections/bruce-engineering/price-list.asp


Bogs
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2010, 11:17:25 AM »
Hi Chris, again, the advise you've got is all good, but in truth, you need do nothing about the length, you can leave .015 dead space at each end, which I would recomend over leaving it all on one end, or you can simply leave the piston .030 thicker/longer and allow it to take up the extra space.  The hardest way would be to increase the stroke when you machine the crank, so it has an extra .015 in stroke, and as John said, make notes on all the different things it would effect.  You should have enough rod length to allow for adjusting the piston to equal travel and equal head space on both dead centers, or if necessary, add the .015 to the rod length, it should be threading into the cross head anyway, as you always have to adjust the length of the piston rod to set up your dead centers (top dead center and bottom dead center).  The rod from the valve eccentric also is adjustable with threads and a lock nut I assume, and the rod running through the valve should have a nut on either end of the valve to set the timing, so if you have to make the valve rod fifteen thous. longer, no big deal.  The main issue is you've got the port centered, and everything else is just individuality in your engine, nothing more or less.  You can even claim you did it on purpose to get more horsepower, and draw diagrams demonstrating the truth in your statement.
   As to machining the valve face, I would bolt the angle plate directly to the table, as you are "stacking tolerances", in clamping it in a vise.  As a rule, you will tend to be more accurate, the more you work directly on the table of the mill, and the fewer parts of "jig" between the part being machined, and the table, assuming the mill is fairly accurate with respect to flatness of the table, perpendicularity of the spindle, and more importantly, perpendicularity of your quill travel.  Much error has crept into work because the spindle was indeed perpendicular to the table, but the quill travel its self was not.  You can test this by putting an indicator in the spindle with your best square on the table, and running the quill down and up, with the indicator against the square.  If you are not certain of your square, you can do the same thing twice, once on each side of the quill, and if the reading is zero on both, your quill is indeed perpendicular, and if the reading is say .005 on one side, and .005 going the same direction with the quill i.e. down on both or up both sides, it is your square out of truth.  All that said, you will have dead space top and bottom just to keep from hitting when things get loosened up a bit from running, I'd just go ahead and mill the valve face, and use the X axis for reasons stated by Nick I think.
    Personally, I prefer castings to billet, as they save lots of metal and machine time when they're right, and in my experience, castings I've worked over the past ten years are substantially better than those I worked on thirty years ago, lots of them come from very high tech controlled atmosphere furnaces, being done with automated equipment, and with better quality original metal and a better knowledge of the ore going into the original foundry.  You will note, most people who machine out of billet end up doing much work altering the final profile to more closely resemble castings, and how they make the whole of an engine look.  As a final note, when you mill a flat at each end of the cylinder to drill your ports to meet the cast in ports on the valve face, it is worth the time and effort to move the table all around, with a drill bit in, or some drill rod, and ensure the shallow angle you will be drilling, will meet the port as clean and well as you possibly can as you will always deal with "wander" when drilling long skinny holes, but that is perhaps the hardest part of the cylinder operations, and not too hard after all.  It's nice to see good workmanship such as yours, and a pleasure to watch it come about. cheers,  :beer: jack

Offline NickG

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #66 on: October 08, 2010, 06:06:11 AM »
Yep, apologies Chris for  :offtopic:

Bogs,

Thanks, that's good to know as I've been looking at Bruce Engineering ones. As you say, the Anthony Mount ones look lovely but they are bloomin' complicated! I remember seeing him serialise things in Engineering in Miniature and it sometimes took years!

Those castings you bought for both engines look good, I've always been tempted by the Scott Vacuum (flame licker) in the past but since then have made 1 and need to finish poppin so I doubt if I'll do another, even though the price seems pretty good from them. You're right though, the ones they have on display don't really do them justice, they should have gone to town and paid extra special attention to detail there.

I liked the look, and price of the atmospheric gas engine but have just read you really need acetylene to run it and I can't think that a source of small bottles of acetylene is going to be easy or cheap to come by!  :doh:

I haven't noticed the stockport engine before which is a vertical flame licker, looks quite nice.

I agree with madjack, that is always the bit I have feared most on a slidevalve engine, drilling the ports - perhaps the reason I've never attempted one, On loco cylinders you usually have a face perpendicular to the valve face which can aid you because you can scribe lines on it and set them vertical.

I had it sussed that I was going to do that on my horizontal mill - clamp that face to the table at the right angle and simply put a drill chuck in the horizontal spindle - but that mill has gone now!!!!! Still, plenty of other ways I guess.

Looking forward to next installment.  :thumbup:

Nick



Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #67 on: October 08, 2010, 08:40:38 AM »
As is probably obvious, Chris, I'm living vicariously right now, through your build, but I really want to see you build an engine you will enjoy for years, unlike my flamelicker, which I built twenty years ago, never got running until I was looking one exactly like it on this forum, running, and had to conclude if anyone could make it run, I could.  I made two more cylinders, five more pistons and completely modded the valve, and made a new cam and crank assembly, as that was the main error I had made, screwing up the cam.
   When the port drilling is to be done, it's a fairly easy task if you go at it right.  The big issue is to get enough "flat" milled at the end edge of the bore, and use a center drill to ensure no wandering of the drill bit.  I will be using an adjustable angle plate, with the valve face clamped to it, and having determined the angle of the holes leading to the ports by my measurements of the valve side of the cylinder thickness, and where in that port I want the holes to end up, and then on the actual mill, with either the drill in a chuck or a piece of straight rod, which is easier to see than the drill with flutes, and align the drilling by eye as the final decider when I clamp the adjustable angle plate.  For the ports on my cylinder, it calls for at least three holes be drilled for each port, so it is a bit more complicated than just a single drilled hole, but I don't know what your plans call for as to those ports.  If you don't have an adjustable angle plate, it can be well done with a regular angle plate and some wood shimming or aluminium arranged to get the hole through from each end, and end up inside the port well clear of the face, so as not to interfere with or distort the port, as its edge needs to be clean on each side of each port for good, clean timing.  What John said about using old castings rather than making new patterns is a trick of the "cheap seats", and most businesses which operate that way go out of business rather quickly, in my experience.  No casting kit I've bought in the last fifteen years or so has been anything less than great on the castings, no blow holes, good meat to allow quality workmanship, and the best metal clarity and proper allowing of cooling, leaving nary a one hard spot in perhaps a couple dozen casting projects, including a couple of cross slides for lathes, a filing machine kit, a couple of kits including a boring head, low profile indexing kit, the Tiny Power Ajax steam engine I'm building, and a few others I've forgotten at the moment.  The pictures I saw suggest the Stuart kit is among the top of the line, as kits go, so I expect you have good castings with good metal, particularly with you description of the machining, as you weren't cussing them out, as you would if it were one of the others, not worth the iron cast out of.
   I would clean up the ports and get them rectangular with good clean depth and bottoms, sharp corners for timing, and evenly spaced between the two outer ports and the central one, and spacing will determine if you can time it exactly or not.  The depthing being even is to ensure you can easily get the drilled holes from the ends of the cylinder, directly into the proper port, with plenty of room to not having the drilling interfere with the port edge at all.  The center port is pretty straight forward, just a matter of ensuring clearances, so you don't pierce the cylinder wall with the larger drill bit for the exhaust, quarter thirty two if I remember right.  I hope you don't feel like I'm trying to run your shop for you, just want to see a good engine done to your own pleasure and enjoyment. :whip: :poke: jack

Offline DMIOM

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #68 on: October 08, 2010, 09:05:54 AM »
keeping  :offtopic:
......you really need acetylene to run it and I can't think that a source of small bottles of acetylene is going to be easy or cheap to come by! ........

I don't know if you need it pressurised - but if not, how about making your own - get some handfuls of Calcium Carbide and a cup of tap water and craft a nice drip feed like a carbide lamp?

Dave

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #69 on: October 08, 2010, 12:57:05 PM »
Hi Chris

Looks like your having fun with those castings  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Allot of crackin advice being posted too  :bow: :thumbup:

Rob

Offline raynerd

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2010, 06:05:47 PM »
MadJack -
Quote
I hope you don't feel like I'm trying to run your shop for you, just want to see a good engine done to your own pleasure and enjoyment.

NOT at all !! I appreciate the time your taking out to post your comments and advice - they have helped me no end! I`m just going down to the workshop now to drill the cylinder ports....so fingers crossed! I`ll keep you posted.

Chris

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #71 on: October 09, 2010, 08:01:06 AM »
keeping  :offtopic:
......you really need acetylene to run it and I can't think that a source of small bottles of acetylene is going to be easy or cheap to come by! ........

I don't know if you need it pressurised - but if not, how about making your own - get some handfuls of Calcium Carbide and a cup of tap water and craft a nice drip feed like a carbide lamp?

Dave
Hi Dave, I don't mean to keep it off topic, but where do you get Calcium Carbide in handfuls?  I can find a source here for a one or two ounce tube, but that's all I've found.  I could use some for a lamp I've got, and I'd like to build an engine that runs off it.  That was the standard way to get acetylene all up through the thirties and forties, for welding.  Info would be highly appreciated. :scratch: mad jack

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #72 on: October 09, 2010, 08:33:16 AM »
MadJack -
Quote
I hope you don't feel like I'm trying to run your shop for you, just want to see a good engine done to your own pleasure and enjoyment.

NOT at all !! I appreciate the time your taking out to post your comments and advice - they have helped me no end! I`m just going down to the workshop now to drill the cylinder ports....so fingers crossed! I`ll keep you posted.

Chris
Hi Chris, thanks for the good word, it'll be another week or so before I'm working on projects again, still cleaning, so I am really getting great pleasure out of watching you, as you're cracking away at it, and I wish I could be doing the same, or perhaps making a visit to your shop.  That's the one thing missing from these forums, we can be so far away from each other, yet truly enjoy each others company in exchanging ideas and experiences.  I seem to learn something every day from the various backgrounds and experiences of those who are building, and enjoy it thoroughly.  I'm looking forward to seeing your ports turn out well, so you can get on with mounting valve gear and steam box and the like.  Your's is like a kick in the pants, as my engine has been in the shop, waiting, for close on to seven or eight years, and seeing you build is driving me to get mine done, I want to actually steam it, I've only used air for engines before.  great job, looking good. :poke: ttfn, mad jack

Offline raynerd

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #73 on: October 11, 2010, 03:15:05 AM »
Cheers MadJack. I don`t know if I`m doing it right but I`m doing my best!

I`ve still been working on this over the weekend with some progress and what I did attempt seems to have gone well.
I first finished off the cylinder and also drilled the steam ports including drilling and tapping the exhaust. I must admit, I tapped the exhaust a little near to the edge than would have been ideal but it still worked out OK – no problems and looks just fine. The steam ports drilled just fine as well, no problem there and the cylinder looks very good. More pictures at the bottom, but this shows the Ό” recess on the cylinder bottom:


Got going on the cylinder covers. I wanted to use my rotary table to drill the 5 holes accurately so I turned to length on my 4 jaw, cut the recess that registers with the cylinder bore and then pulled it off the lathe and transferred it to the rotary table. 


I then made some more markings and started to part it off:



Cylinder now finished and so is the top cover. I need to drill and tap the cylinder for the cover but I`m going to use the cylinder cover as the jig to mark out the position of the holes. I`ll do this later when I`m definitely happy with it all



Next job is to do the bottom cover but it tells me that I need to ream 5/32” and I don`t have this sized reamer. Truth is, I only have a hand full of odd sized reamers. I`m reluctant to buy a 5/32” reamer to use it only once but of course the rod going through which is supplied is 5/32”. I`m considering buying a metric reamer set and buying some 4mm silver steel and using this instead!?   
Chris






Offline kwackers

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Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #74 on: October 11, 2010, 05:04:46 AM »
There's no problem changing the size of the rod and reaming to fit. Remember to transfer that size through to everything it connects to. (Off the top of my head, that'll be the gland, slide valve & nut and whatever the connection to the eccentric is).
(Worth bearing in mind a 5/32" reamer is £2.75 from Arc Euro - is it worth the hassle?)

With regards 'sets' personally I dislike them. They're handy to have for emergencies but the quality is always a bit 'iffy'. Much better to buy high quality individual items.
All IMO, I have lots of sets of various items but the stuff I use most frequently is all purchased individually and I've always found it to give better results.