Author Topic: Acetylene  (Read 19106 times)

Offline DMIOM

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Acetylene
« on: October 09, 2010, 06:08:03 PM »
Quote from: NickG
......you really need acetylene to run it and I can't think that a source of small bottles of acetylene is going to be easy or cheap to come by! ........

Quote
I don't know if you need it pressurised - but if not, how about making your own - get some handfuls of Calcium Carbide and a cup of tap water and craft a nice drip feed like a carbide lamp?

Dave

Quote
.....where do you get Calcium Carbide in handfuls?  I can find a source here for a one or two ounce tube, but that's all I've found.  I could use some for a lamp I've got, and I'd like to build an engine that runs off it.  That was the standard way to get acetylene all up through the thirties and forties, for welding.  Info would be highly appreciated. :scratch: mad jack

Have moved this to the (Re)Sources section.

We used carbide lamps for various purposes on the farm and it used to be stocked in agricultural merchants. Nowadays I think one of few disciplines that still uses carbide lamps is the caving fraternity - e.g. here where they have 1kg (2.2 lb) for GBP 8.35 or 3kg (6.6 lb) for GBP 20.75 - I guess you may have similar suppliers in the US?

Dave

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2010, 03:18:59 AM »
Hi Dave

Whats your plans for this stuff   :scratch:   ,,,,,to run  some sort of engine   :D

Rob

Offline DMIOM

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2010, 03:55:53 AM »
No Rob - tisn't for me - I was just answering the queries that had cropped up in Chris's Stuart 10V thread (I think NickG was talking about atmospheric gas engines) but as they were continuing a wee bit OT I thought I would post the follow up here

Dave
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 03:57:52 AM by DMIOM »

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2010, 04:00:53 AM »
Cheers Dave

I will have a look ,,,,,,,,,, sounds interesting  :)


Rob 

Offline raynerd

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2010, 05:19:39 AM »
I was trying to get some of this calcium carbide for a demo of "underwater fireworks" - acetylene and chlorine. A couple of the "normal" educational chemical suppliers don`t stock it - or at least not listed in their catalogues.  

&feature=related


However, with that link Dave, a good supply of some carbide - a copy of miners lamp would make a great project:

&feature=related

My grandad tells stories that when they were at school they use to bring calcium carbide in their school pocket, throw it in an ink well and drop some water on it. Then they would light the ink well and it would act as a little desk lamp! I`m sure they weren`t meant to be doing that ....but a nice tale!


So who is making the first carbide lamp?

Chris

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2010, 05:37:19 AM »
I bet some of the senior/ older  members on here Bluechip, JS had those lights on there horseless carriage and velocipedes    :lol: :lol: :lol:


Rob  :D

Offline Bluechip

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2010, 07:26:59 AM »
I bet some of the senior/ older  members on here Bluechip, JS had those lights on there horseless carriage and velocipedes    :lol: :lol: :lol:


Rob  :D

No need to be sarky ... anyway... Acetylene Lamps must be new technology in Geordieland    :smart:

...... when they get there ... not to worry Rob, we'll send someone who can read up there with the instructions for 'em.


BTW your text sizing went to pot. Us owd codgers can't see 30pt. let alone 3pt.

Dave BC
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2010, 07:44:23 AM »
I used to help my dad clean out his carbide lamps off his bike every weekend. Even in the late 50's, they were still in use because batteries were so expensive and were not too easy to come by.

BTW Rob, one of the casting set engines sold by Bruce engineering runs off acetylene gas.


Bogs
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 07:46:28 AM by bogstandard »
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Rob.Wilson

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2010, 11:24:03 AM »
I bet some of the senior/ older  members on here Bluechip, JS had those lights on there horseless carriage and velocipedes    :lol: :lol: :lol:


Rob  :D

No need to be sarky ... anyway... Acetylene Lamps must be new technology in Geordieland    :smart:

...... when they get there ... not to worry Rob, we'll send someone who can read up there with the instructions for 'em.






BTW your text sizing went to pot. Us owd codgers can't see 30pt. let alone 3pt.

Dave BC

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:  just seeing if your awake Dave ,,,,,,,, i were not much for book learning up ere  :lol: :lol: :lol: :)


Cheers John ,,,, wondered what the acetylene was for  :thumbup:


Rob  :) :D :)

Offline Bluechip

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2010, 12:01:05 PM »

Awake? ... Dunno. Hard to tell .. Does it make any difference ?

BTW Running lights were not a legal requirement on Ox carts ...

BC
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Offline doubleboost

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2010, 09:24:51 AM »
Hi
I still use carcbde in my caving lamp when the fancy takes me
You can buy it fron most caving shops.
A friend of mine used a acetyline generator for welding up untill 10 years ago
The factory inspector took one look at it and condened it (after he saw a demonstration)
It is now in a musiem
John

Offline AndyB

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2010, 03:44:43 PM »
Hi all,

Please, please, please, be bloody careful with storing acetylene under pressure.

Acetylene gas bottles are filled with a sponge-like substance called massing, the acetylene gas is disolved in acetone before putting in the bottle.

The problem with acetylene under pressure is that it can self-react in a vapour space, turning into benzine...with a lot of heat!
The massing is to prevent vapour spaces but if a bottle is dropped it can cause the massing to compress leaving, hey presto, a vapour space.

The Fire Service will dump cylinders into a pond or river for 24 hours if they are involved in an accident.
The A14 at Newmarket (Suffolk) was shut for 24 hours after a van carrying cutting gear caught fire.
Not long after, another major road was shut for 24 hours after a service van was involved in an accident while carrying acetylene. Funny thing, the service van was the Fire Service's!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The heat generated by the self-reaction is enough to blow the cylinder. :bugeye:
A catalyst for the reaction is ferrous oxide...rust to you and me, another is nickel. No stainless steel or iron containers!!!!  :smart:
Waveney Valley, Suffolk/Norfolk Border

Offline Dean W

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2010, 04:14:48 PM »
The heat generated by the self-reaction is enough to blow the cylinder.

Don't you guys have melt out plugs over there?

There's not really any need for all the hand wringing over acetylene.  It's been used safely for ages.
Your car has more heat/explosion potential in it's gas tank.  Use either as they are supposed to
be used, and both are quite safe.
Dean W.

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Offline AndyB

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2010, 04:49:45 AM »
Dean,

You are absolutely correct of course. I just wanted to point out the hazards so that those who are not informed can be. Sorry if I am boring but I used to teach this stuff to lorry drivers as part of their Carriage of Dangerous Goods qualification and the horror stories that some of them tell are enough to make a grown man faint...through lack of eduction.

We have all been to scrap yards where their version of Giant Haystacks is slinging acetylene bottles around like tossing a caber. Obviously he doesn't know...

My point is not to sit on an acetylene bottle that has started to warm up because it has turned a bit cold outside  :lol:
Waveney Valley, Suffolk/Norfolk Border

Offline NickG

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2010, 09:46:09 AM »
Dave, thanks for the info - and for the video's chris, that would be a cool project .. by the looks of that flame, I think it would run the engine!  :thumbup:
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Dean W

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2010, 05:16:48 PM »

My point is not to sit on an acetylene bottle that has started to warm up because it has turned a bit cold outside  :lol:

Oh, well no.  I wouldn't sit on one either.  They're not very comfortable anyway, with those fittings and gauges sticking
out the top.  Bit hard on the bum, and your other naughty bits.
Dean W.

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Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2010, 05:41:00 PM »
Once you get the naughty bits out of your bum! :bugeye: you can go use this link to find out things your mum never mentioned about acetylene.


American Miners Carbide Lamps: A Collector's Guide to American Carbide Mine Lighting
 by Gregg Clemmer
The current prices on US Amazon are way over the top  :doh: or I was really lucky  :thumbup:

If you are interested self generation of acetylene and the equipment, for place that it is impossible to exchange cylinders there all kinds of companies on the net producing them google them 206,000 hits
 :coffee:
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Offline Divided he ad

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2010, 06:26:47 AM »
I've had an odd project in mind for some time and not the knowledge to produce the desired effect.... This thread has now enlightened me (I know  ::) ) to the possibilities of the projects fruition.


Basically.... once I get my ar*e in gear I'll have a hopefully interesting post to erm... Post!



Already found 3 sites with schematic and dismantling pictures/procedures of these lamps  :thumbup:  (links can be provided if you want them?)




I'll not be the first on here to make one I'm sure.... But mine will hopefully be a little different  :loco:






Ralph.
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Offline DMIOM

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2010, 07:25:53 AM »
I've had an odd project in mind for some time ........Already found 3 sites with schematic and dismantling pictures/procedures of these lamps...... But mine will hopefully be a little different .......

Let me have a guess - you're going to try make a carbide lamp to match the keyring torches in your signature?

Dave   :coffee:

Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2010, 09:33:46 AM »
As a carbide caver in my younger days. And having had a number of the lamps both old ones and the more just modern Justrite brand . Don't know if your internet info, mentions the two most important things after having a gastite seal between the carbide chamber/gas compartment. A lot of people would lose the rubber gasket and the gas would leak out and catch on fire when it was on the hard hat/helmet. Since it wasn't under much or any pressure it was a lazy type flame. Interesting to see none the less and the persons reaction, 3 hours in a cave!  :doh:

Have a positive water drip shut off, so it will stop generating gas.

DO NOT use any form of clamping device if you use a hose from the lamp unit to the generating unit if they are separate as a belt generator unit. That way if you generate more gas that you use it can blow the hose off before the pressure gets to an unstable number.

As it is 15psig in the atmosphere, that is the unstable point.

Here in the US they were also favored for nighttime hunting of raccoons. Union carbide was the largest manufacture and seller of the carbide. In rural areas you could find it at almost any hardware store in years past.

Also on an environmental note, the spent carbide after it has generated acetylene gas,turns into a sticky powder while wet. It is considered a toxic/hazardous material. Be careful were and how you dispose of it.

It will kill wild life and pets, and water life if it gets into a stream or pond.

Plus clean it out of your generator section when you recharge the unit. It is a royal pain to remove after it dries and can after time be corrosive to the canisters.

As you have probably found out, googling carbide lamps will bring up a skip load of hits. I have to see if I have any photos of the lamps and the inside working end of them.
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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2010, 11:26:07 PM »
Quote
Let me have a guess - you're going to try make a carbide lamp to match the keyring torches in your signature?

Nope! Nice try though  :)


Been drawing up crap o cads of the idea for a few hours this evening.... Some parts will be easy, most not. But that's where the challenge come in right?


Glen,

Duly noted. I had plans to do a great deal of research before playing with acetylene gas (or any gas for that matter!) I've been known to make the odd Oxy/acetylene  erm...latex glove (if you don't know, you probably shouldn't!) in my time as a grease monkey. Much power in the wrong (right) quantities!!!  :bugeye: 

Interesting note about the toxic nature of the remnants. I noted in my searchings that the pH value of the mixture is a high alkali of 11.3 and takes around 28 days to reach 6.3 (neutral) if left undisturbed, this time reduced to about 4 days if air is bubbled through it. The remnants are calcium hydroxide. Which becomes neutralised when it reacts with carbon dioxide.
There was as you can imagine a great deal more to the study I read but most of it is a little too in depth for me. I just wanted to know about the material I was looking at using.

Saved it in my favourites for future use. If you're interested? Ref: http://www.springerlink.com/content/hm4j543624kp2857/fulltext.pdf



Going to be a while before I get much made.... I've got a huge tuit list!!!





Ralph.





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Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2011, 05:54:10 PM »
Thanks Ralph, they have been on about that kind of things on this side of the pond since the mid 70's matter of fact we had the electric carvers vs, the other at one point. (carbide)

Went to the site this is what I see, I sure it's a great article but not worth 34.00 USD  :lol:
Toxicity of carbide waste to heterotrophic microorganisms in caves

Kathleen Hoey Lavoie
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Buy Online Access to this Article
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USD 34.00

Will get some picture of the lamps and parts now that the holidays are past  ::)
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
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and I'm working on the first two!
glen

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2011, 06:19:47 PM »
I'll not be paying either!

Still haven't forgotten about this, I just need time and talent to develop my idea....  Sooner or later It'll happen  ::)



All piccys are good Glen  :thumbup:






Ralph.
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Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2011, 07:25:17 PM »
 :headbang:
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
Raise the Dead!
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                 Fix a broken heart!
and I'm working on the first two!
glen

MrFluffy

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2011, 04:11:13 AM »
Theres usually a acetylene generator for sale in the small ad's near here :-
http://www.leboncoin.fr/materiel_professionnel/162554023.htm?ca=14_s

I had wondered about getting one instead of renting cylinders for my very limited gas usage , but Id also wondered what the possibility of blowing myself up properly was  :zap:

Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2011, 06:19:44 AM »
That one does look to be in really rough shape,  At a minimum it would need a couple seal change though out. First thing would be to find out if the company is still in business, second would be parts and operating manuals.
Unless you wanted a collector item, maybe I should say you need to find out if you can get the calcium carbide pellets locally and what rules and regulations that apply for use, storage and disposal.
Even if the waste material is neutralized, there may be test required, and it still might be classed as hazardous waste, with all fees, and permits. It has a salty taste, that animals love.

Another question is does it allow you to do a partial fill load.

Does it allow you to stop the process completely.

It would be a whole lot more hassles than buying a cylinder, and then exchanging it.  If you are using it just for heating, bending, cutting and soldering or brazing. You may want to thing about propane or butane. What ever the formula and name for the heating and cooking bottle gas in your area.
Used with oxygen as a fuel gas, the only thing that you can't used it for is ferrous welding. As nothing but acetylene/oxy combination can achieve a true neutral flame. Keeping contamination of the welding puddle to a minimum.
 
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
Raise the Dead!
        Walk on water!
                 Fix a broken heart!
and I'm working on the first two!
glen

MrFluffy

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2011, 02:24:57 PM »
Thanks for the reply, I have a gas air torch setup running on a propane bottle on my chip hearth and Ive used oxy/propane cutting torches in industry in the past along with o/a for welding, its just I couldnt get my head around the fact that you could make enough acetylene to run a set on in real time with one of these. I had visions of some pump capturing some slow output over time and pumping it into a storage tank or the like with the resultant huge risks. The sets all seem to be sold for collectors so maybe they're not legal to run in a business any more and they're all going to be 50+ years old so seals and gaskets would have to be made up from cord stock/gasket paper.
I looked and carbide is still available as new carbide lamps are still sold here, about $60 for 5kg (about 11 lbs) mail order. I have no idea how much gas that would generate/how expensive it would work out still though.
Ill watch the small ad's and if a nicer one comes up it might follow me home as a curiosity as sometimes things do.

Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2011, 04:25:18 PM »
Do a google on acetylene generators, you will be surprised at the number of new ones and the assorted sizes of the outputs are out there. They are popular for use in 3rd world countries and back water outposts that the exchange of cylinders would be cost prohibited.

Also you would need to buy it (calcium carbide) in larger quantities. When I was caving years ago we would buy a 1oo pound drum and split it up between a number of people to get a better price.
Union Carbide  sold it in 2# 5# 10# cans along with larger ones. The costs for the smaller can was a lot higher per pound. then the 100 pounder/pound.

Gaskets and seals would either be rubber or cork to stop any leaks and flames burning from the spots on the lamps. It was always fun to see somebody else's hard hat erupt into a ball of flame. Since there is no real pressure, to speak off being generated. It would be just a lazy ball of yellow  flame!  :bugeye: :clap: :lol: at the front of the hard hat. That's why I always had the old style aluminum ones.
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
Raise the Dead!
        Walk on water!
                 Fix a broken heart!
and I'm working on the first two!
glen

Offline krv3000

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2011, 08:20:15 PM »
HI well this my seem daft but i have a tilly lamp that i youse in my work shop and i youse parafine blow torch for silver soldering   the resen for the lamp is for safty whot wood hapen wile at work you  trip the electricity and you is in the dark and by  the state of my workshop it wood be dangres to move with out sum light to see by    :mmr:

Offline kvom

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2011, 09:20:12 AM »
Back in my days in the US Army, I was on the post rifle team.  We used a carbide lamp's soot to blacken the front sights of our rifles.  I still have the lamp lying about somewhere.

Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Acetylene
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2011, 09:50:14 AM »
Back in my days in the US Army, I was on the post rifle team.  We used a carbide lamp's soot to blacken the front sights of our rifles.  I still have the lamp lying about somewhere.

They like everything else now a days are collectors items. As the book I posted in an earlier post can a test too. Most aren't big bucks, but like the old liquid fuel blowtorches, they are interesting and a conversation starter when people see them. And I have book on them


And lanterns of all fuel types.



Some are worth big bucks and some just a couple, but it is interesting to find out about  the companies and people that produced them. I got rid of my  RR switch lanterns and conductors ones when the price was better than now!

Still have some lanterns that were used before the battery ones on construction sites.
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
Raise the Dead!
        Walk on water!
                 Fix a broken heart!
and I'm working on the first two!
glen