Author Topic: Tufnol  (Read 9677 times)

Offline slowcoach

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Tufnol
« on: October 20, 2010, 11:06:55 AM »
Anyone had any experience milling Tufnol? I have a upcoming project that requires me to machine some  :dremel:.

Cheers
Rob  :thumbup:

Offline John Swift

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Re: Tufnol
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2010, 11:40:32 AM »
Hi Rob

I've not used tufnol but if its like  srbp circuit board ( synthetic resin bonded paper)

I would take care not to breath in any dust produce

I'm not sure how easy it will be to machine

it may delaminate if your not careful


  John
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 11:45:30 AM by John Swift »

Offline andyf

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Re: Tufnol
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2010, 11:42:00 AM »
I've done it, Rob, but only for one small part. Someone asked the same question on another forum, and a chap who seemed to know what he was talking gave a lengthy reply relating to phenolic resins such as Tufnol, which is paraphrased below:

Phenolic resins are thermosetting resins which get hard with heat and cannot be remolded any further past this point.  d If you really overheat phenolic it will start to char and then it just falls apart.

Usually what limits it max temp are the additives. If the filler is a cloth fiber the cloth starts to suffer at a lower temp than the resin.

The trick to machining phenolic, especially with fiber fillers, is to use an extremely sharp tool. As the filled phenolics can be somewhat abrasive you wind up having to resharpen quite frequently. Also as someone else suggested, cut across the grain of the filler if possible. If you have some unwanted fuzziness on your cut surface, you will have to apply some sort of grinding cloth or paper to finish it up, preferably with a lubricant. Most applications however do not require a very fine finish so extra polishing stages are more cosmetic than anything. To get the type of finish you require will depend on the grade of phenolic you're using and will need a certain degree of fiddling around to get the result you want. When we needed a fairly fine or polished surface we resorted to hard carbide or diamond laps and lots of lubricant, but that was for very specialized applications so I don't think most folks will need to go to that extreme.


I think that the references to abrasive fillers refers to glass fibre and suchlike, rather than the more usuual cloth and paper fillers. It might be worth mentioning that water is a good lubricant for Tufnol; hence its use in the marine environment. Also, avoid running Tufnol against Tufnol - for example, a Tufnol gear should be meshed with a metal one, not another one made of Tufnol.

Hope this helps a bit.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline picclock

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Re: Tufnol
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2010, 12:36:09 PM »
I've only milled the cloth type. Definitely gives a better finish in one direction. Found best finish was with WD40 (lots of it). Other lubes including water still gave fuzziness. I supect the wd40 wicks into the fibre, sticking the fuzzy bits together, making it cut more cleanly. Water may work if you use soap or similar to reduce surface tension (never tried water with soap).

This was all by trial and error (mainly error), so best result may be to see what is acceptable to you.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline cidrontmg

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Re: Tufnol
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2010, 12:53:39 PM »
Also, avoid running Tufnol against Tufnol - for example, a Tufnol gear should be meshed with a metal one, not another one made of Tufnol.

Andy

A good advice, but both Myford (ML7, S7) tumbler gears are Tufnol, running against each other, all the time... My first pair ran for >40 years, then I replaced them. An excellent material, Tufnol. Wear a mask when milling. It doesnīt smell very attractive anyway. Do the same if you grind it. Use the sharpest cutters you have. If you can, keep it wet (water). Also helps to keep the dust at bay.
 :wave:
Olli
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Offline slowcoach

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Re: Tufnol
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2010, 05:43:58 AM »
Cheers Guys,
A sharp tool and plenty of WD40, worked a treat  :thumbup: I ended up with a really nice finish  :D

Thanks
Rob

Offline andyf

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Re: Tufnol
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2010, 06:37:45 AM »
Also, avoid running Tufnol against Tufnol - for example, a Tufnol gear should be meshed with a metal one, not another one made of Tufnol.

Andy

A good advice, but both Myford (ML7, S7) tumbler gears are Tufnol, running against each other, all the time... My first pair ran for >40 years, then I replaced them....

Hi citrontmg,

I've found the bit about gears on the Tufnol website:
The pinion, or the wheel with the higher speed should normally be made from TUFNOL laminates and the mating wheel from metal. The metal gear should preferably be made of hardened steel but, failing this, a machine cut cast iron wheel usually gives good results. It should have machine-cut teeth because non-metallic gears will not mesh truly with a tooth having either a cast or machine-moulded finish.
Due to the comparatively low modulus of elasticity, the teeth of a TUFNOL gear adapt themselves quickly to suit the profiles of the metal mating gear. Any slight inaccuracies in tooth form and spacing are soon accommodated.
TUFNOL to TUFNOL drives are not generally recommended as no additional benefits are achieved, except in a few special cases. Such instances may occur, for example, in corrosive conditions or where electrical insulation is required.


My memory was at fault  :doh: . Though it talks about mating Tufnol gears to metal ones and says Tufnol to Tufnol isn't recommended, it doesn't actually say that this might cause problems, merely that there are "no additional benefits".


Andy
 why, or
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Tufnol
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2010, 11:24:22 AM »
All,

I believe that "Tufnol" is a brand name of a cloth-phenolic composite material.  I have the (US) MilSpec on phenolic materials should someone need strength properties.  The thing about machining phenolic is that (A) you use a vacuum to keep the dust out of your lungs; (B) use only sharp cutters; (C) lubricate it -- we used to use a 5% solution of glycerin and water back when I did such things for my living; and (D) keep it cool either by limiting the time in the cut or applying an air blast to it (aimed into the vacuum collector).  The theory is that the resin is complete cured in the resulting material.  The problem with this is that catalyst/resin systems are like glass -- they approach that state asymptotically.  Running phenolic on phenolic can give you both wear and sticktion problems -- and they can mutually bond if you stop them after they have been within a couple degrees of their critical temperature.  The last factor is quite rare, but it does happen.

Does this help?

Offline cidrontmg

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Re: Tufnol
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2010, 12:36:35 PM »
My memory was at fault  :doh: . Though it talks about mating Tufnol gears to metal ones and says Tufnol to Tufnol isn't recommended, it doesn't actually say that this might cause problems, merely that there are "no additional benefits".

Andy
 why, or

Hi Andy,
that makes perfect sense, about the additional benefits. I have great faith in Myford engineers, they seem to know their business about long-lasting equipment. If they mate two Tufnol gears together, it canīt be an awful sin to do so...   :beer:
 :wave:
Olli
Penafiel
Portugal