My Prema Typ 02 shaper

[Trion]

Yup, dsquire guessed it! The latest addition to my shop is a Swedish Prema Typ 02 shaper. It came from a "high school" close to Trondheim, who were giving it away. So I arranged with a shipping company and got it home the ~1000km trip for 200£
It has not been used in over 10 years, so it needs a bit of attention to get into working shape..

Here it is on my small trailer


It was very top heavy, so I quickly decided to remove the ram and table to make the trip home safer


Loading it of in the shop


And there it is in place next to the mill. I have kept it on the fork lift to be able to move it around as I'm making small improvements


Lacking proper tools, I had to remove the whole table in one piece. That put my back on a proper test!


The ratchet mechanism can feed a gear either on the horizontal or vertical shaft, so I have feed both ways


Table from underneath


I plan to clean and paint the machine, so I removed all the covers


Here's the ram, gib and clapper box. The clapper box had to be opened with a rubber hammer..


The labeling on the gib is for the ram positioning. It only goes to 13cm(?), but I have measured the maximum ram stroke to 300mm


The scraping pattern is worn of the gib, but it is nowhere near the wear on the mill


I removed the tool slide. The tool slide nut looked like a homemade fix


The underside of the tool slide seems to have crashed with the main casting a few times.




Tool slide disassembled. There is a bit of wear in the screw bushing, will see if I decide to make a new bushing for that.


Then I removed the mounting block for the tool slide. It is being locked by an eccentric shaft from the top of the ram.
It had some blue marks on it, almost as if someone had tried to check its flatness


Front of the ram looked ok


Machine label. It's made in the same town as the Sajo mill


Here's the ratchet mechanism. Also showing signs of having been repaired a few times before.


Then I turned my attention to the table, and loosened it from the slides


Sideways slide looking fine


Up down slide also looking ok.


And the table. It is located to the slides by a key and can unfortunately not be swiveled.


After a quick wipe with an oil stone, I saw this mark. Someone has obviously broken out a piece of the T-slot, and here's the repair. Doesn't look too bad if you ask me.



Slide casing ready for wash and paint


The shaft where the ratchet is hinged on has cracked its casing, so someone has made a clamp to secure it in place. Works fine, so I'm going to leave it this way


All the components of the ram and table are now ready for cleaning and paint.


Here are some pictures of the rest of the machine.
There are only two pulley speeds


But the lever sticking out from the housing is a gear lever for 3 gears


I measured the maximum ram stroke to 300mm, should do me plenty


Top view inside the casing. On the bottom you can see the concrete floor



I have a few questions regarding the machine:
The machine has obviously been repainted, the inside of one cover is army green. Does anyone know how the original Prema color was? If not, I'm going to paint it grey-blue.



I have found these nipples around the entire machine. Are they supposed to be for grease or oil? Where can I get an oil gun to suit these?



Plans for the machine:
- Clean
- Function test of motor
- Paint
- Small fixes to get it into working shape
- Convert the machine to central lubrication. I'm thinking of using a power steering pump from a car, a small 3phase motor i have and make a sump in the bottom of the machine. My main question as of now, is what fittings to use to feed oil into the exising holes for the nipples
- Maybe redo the machine electrics to contactor steering, making it possible to add auto-stop switches to the machine

[Artie]

Man what a great score! You are going to love this machine.. I expect to read ravings in the near future!

I cant help you with much except the oil nipples.. you simply place the end or tip of the oil can onto the ball so it depresses it and pump away. Oil goes everywhere including into the moving surfaces. Perhaps they used to have a concave tip to allow some sort of seal.. no idea, mine are mostly on flat surfaces and even the spillage is used by the wiping motion...all the bosses that require oil on mine use oil cups..

Good luck... I see another convert.....

[John Hill]

Great machine!   Great little trailer too!

[dsquire]

Trion

Congratulations on your good fortune to make such a find. Glad to see that I was right on my guess. I have been watching for a post to see when you would get it but never expected it this soon. I also never expected to see that you have it all stripped down almost ready for paint. It looks like it is going to be a real good work horse for you. I am glad to see that you are giving it a new home and keeping it out of the scrapers hands.  I will be watching for further progress reports. 

Cheers 

Don

[Trion]

Thanks for the gratulations, I'm very pleased too, aspecially with it being so nice and small! Though I must say, shapers are looked upon as obsolete in Norway, and they are being given away or scrapped ever so often. Maybe an opportunity for a export business

Artie: Thanks! I believe/thought there are some oil guns having a suiting shape to seal onto the nipple, allowing oil to be forced in. Anyways, I want to remove many of them and make a system for central lubrication. Currently I'm thinking of using copper brake pipes for cars and just making many fitting sleeves to be a press fit inside the original nipple holes. Then fit the pipe into the sleeve and and punch them into the hole to lock the pipe in place. It will be a lot of pipes though..

John Hill: Thanks. The trailer wasn't behaving too great under the full load of the shaper though, hence the disassembly. But still, it got it home

dsquire: Thanks. You know how it is, something is new and exciting and all of a sudden every task just becomes fun and easy.
I'm currently debating wether I should tear the machine completely in pieces, to be able to steam wash the casing and give it a proper paint job, or just leave it as is, as the internals of the machine seem to be in nice condition.

But don't expect too many updates in the next weeks. My final exams are beginning very soon

[John Hill]

Trion, you sure have been busy with this machine!

In my opinion your shaper is what I would call a 'substantial' machine and also an 'honest' machine, honest in that it has seen some work in its time and shows a few scars from whatever mishaps and adventures it has been part of.

I think this machine would be good, cleaned, adjusted, lubricated and put to work rather than polished, painted and pampered to be some sort of glossy ornament.

Just my opinion of course!

[Trion]

I'm sorry John but our opinions differ on that matter. I like (ideally) to bring my machinery to a good condition regarding both looks and performance, preferrably before I start using them. This way, I know what I have and I allways have a good reason to keep it clean and tidy. I also find it very pleasing to have nice, functioning machines to look at and work on.

[AdeV]

Very nice Trion, I have tool envy here. I've been on the lookout for a low-cost shaper, no luck yet...

I like (ideally) to bring my machinery to a good condition regarding both looks and performance, preferrably before I start using them.

I admire your patience... I'm usually so impatient I barely have time to check the plug before I've got a new machine hooked up and working.... or going bang, whichever is applicable   

[John Hill]

I'm sorry John but our opinions differ on that matter. I like (ideally) to bring my machinery to a good condition regarding both looks and performance, preferrably before I start using them. This way, I know what I have and I allways have a good reason to keep it clean and tidy. I also find it very pleasing to have nice, functioning machines to look at and work on.

Im cool with that Trion  

[Trion]

Ade: Thanks! Well, there is this other free shaper located in the west of Noway, which i posted a link to a few days ago. All you need is a boat and a good excuse for the misses

John: That´s good to hear!


Does anyone have an opinion about my idea of trying to convert the machine to central lubrication? Waste of time and money, or a good investment to keep the machine as good as possible? Any experiences with retrofitted central lubrication?

[Artie]

Hey Trion, these machines are a little messy when you are talking oil, in fact they're very messy when talking chips... whatever... but oil, I give mine a squirt before i start it and unless its to be a longish job thats all it gets, its no issue and I wouldnt worry about central oiling if I were you. But, its your baby..

In relation to speeds, been thinking  I have a 4 speed shaper (as advertised) and it has a hand lever 2 speed gearbox and the 2 belt positions. Is yours a 2 speed gbox or 3? Yours could be a 6 speed shaper...although lord knows why.... Ive never had to move the belt on mine...

I always intended to paint mine but..... its still ala naturale, I did clean it though... thats gotta count....

Your pics touched a memory..sort of like Deja Vous.... only you used orange tie downs...



Mine after a clean and installed... a few smokin chips.. they get everywhere....

[Trion]

Artie: Looks like a nice machine you got there! Seems even a bit bigger than mine. Does your table swivel? Oh, I must admit i like the Mitsubishi in the background too

I get your point regarding the oiling. It would be a lot of work converting it to pump driven oil system, but it would also be a peace of mind. Though oiling the most important part, the ram, is going to be the most difficult as I would have to lay oil lines for each of the 10 holes currently occupied by oil nipples. Choices, choices..

My shaper has a 3 speed gearbox and two belt speeds
So when using the two gears, you use the lower one for steel and higher one for brass and alu?

[Artie]

Yours actually has a longer stroke than mine... It must be a bigger unit.. but no matter you WILL enjoy using it.... As its only slow moving not much oil gets thrown out. Try it and see, you can then make up your own mind.

Speeds.. Ive only used mine on steel, so I cant help you with speeds as Ive only used one  , Ill post a small vid so you can see the cadence, its not quick. If yours is 3 phase make sure its wired to run in the right direction, slower forward/faster return of the ram. Ive seen so many on youtube running backwards.

Click on the pic.... its sizing up QCTP tool holders, a couple at a time.... I use a plastic squeeze bottle to lay some cutting fluid on the surface to be cut (you can see it at the bottom of the shot).... the surface finish is extraordinary....

[Trion]

Artie, I think I'm going to go with your suggestion. Make the machine work, then decide whether regular oiling is enough or if I need to build a central lubrication.

Nice to see a video of your machine running. This leads me to the next question, is there any way to avoid smoke when using a shaper? My shop has very poor ventilation, so I'll be breathing the stuff for hours after the machine has stopped running.


I also have a question regarding dovetails. See illustration of a female dovetail below:

|----------------------------------|
|     left                           right     |
|             ______________            |
|________\         2          /_______|
      1                                 3

When machining the slot (2) on the shaper, you have roughed it out to a square first. Then you cut say the left dovetail, with a LH tool. After cutting the dovetail, the left side of the horizontal surface (2) is finished to depth. Then you change cutter for a right hand tool and cut the right dovetail. THEN, when you want to finish of the right part of the horizontal surface, how do you get this in the perfectly same plane as the left? This also applies to male dovetails, when cutting (1) and (3) surfaces.

[crabsign69]

nice . but i have coment on the straps holding that machine. u should really think about chains.  if u had to brake hard that machine would be in ur back  in about a second or less.
ive been to many wreaks  out on high ways its not a pretty pic when i have to lift a heavy piece of something off off bodys  for the fire department.
please people be aware of what your hauling around. trust me those straps will not hold.

but nice machine u got there

[Trion]

I get your point, but I wasn´t aware it was that bad. The small straps hold 500kg each and the large one meant for braking holds 1000kg, so I had strapped for 2500kg. The machine was said to weight 200kg, before I started disassembling it, so I felt quite safe.

[Artie]

  if u had to brake hard that machine would be in ur back  in about a second or less.

Not sure if your talking to Trion or me (or both), you are very entitled to your opinion... I travelled over 7 hours with that configuration... and I was very comfortable with it... 

Trion, I have pics of the dovetail cutting to show you but photobucket is down for maintenance... Ill drop em in a bit later... the beauty of the shaper is that all surfaces you cut without moving the item in the vice, are all parrallel and square to each other... nature of the machine... using the vernier gauge to change the angle has always given me excellent accuracy... as I can prove when the pics are available..

I roughed up the groove with my horizontal mill, and finished with the shaper. It would take a while with the shaper to remove all that metal but if you are patient, no problem ITS NOT A QUICK MACHINE...

Yes I use a left hand tool holder and a right hand tool holder and a vertical holder.  All of which I made from scratch, again, pics to follow. Its 8;30pm here right now, so probably in the morning (my time)...

Cheers  Rob T

[Artie]

Pics are back up..... romoved the centre material...





and the angle being cut.....



Pretty good result....



and the tooling used, made for the job, no need to buy it at all....

[Trion]

Artie, thanks for the detailed reply! I have read a largish book (250p) on shaper use, which I found here: http://www.neme-s.org/Shaper%20Books/shaper_book_page.htm It is called "Shaper Work". But your pictures put the words into practice and it all makes a bit more sense now!

To be honest, I saw a shaper for the first time when it was put on my trailer earlier this week, and I have yet to see one run. But I have heard rumors of them not being too efficient
What is the deepest cut you would dare to take on you shaper in steel? I have seen pictures of large shapers taking up to 2" deep cuts, not that I'm expecting that kind of cutting of small machines like ours..

Your pictures got my mind going, maybe I should start looking for horizontal milling arbors for the Sajo!?

I have some lathe tool holders that should fit the shaper, but yours look very nice. I like the idea of having them "indexable". How did you make the square holes? Milling a slot and welding on a plate?


Oh, I got some shop time yesterday evening too

I wanted to check the condition of the gearbox, so I removed its covers. The top cover is actually plexiglas!
I also found the securing screw (flat head) on the rear shaft to be loose (removed in the picture)


I removed it, cleaned the threads and screwed it back in properly. I also removed the remains of the old gasket around the sealing surfaces, before I mounted the covers again with some Locktite sealant.


Then I set out to clean the machine. I started with a wire brush, just to get all the hard oil and dirt away, the machine immediately looked a lot cleaner




Then I cleaned the entire machine with ethanol, sanded it down, wiped off with ethanol again, and masked the surfaces not to be painted. (I did mask the table support sliding surface after I took the photo)


I had thought to paint it in its original color, and got good help from several other Prema owners on practicalmachinist ( http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/prema-owners-unite-214311/ ) But I figured it would be difficult to find a color based on pictures, and I had quite a bit of grey-blue paint laying around.. To add to this, it was too late for any paint shops to be open, so I got cracking with what I had




The main housing needs another coat of paint, and then there are all the other bits and bobs also requiring some prettyness.. But it's getting there

[Artie]

What is the deepest cut you would dare to take on you shaper in steel? I have seen pictures of large shapers taking up to 2" deep cuts, not that I'm expecting that kind of cutting of small machines like ours..
Perhaps only 1mm or so, the lighter the cut the better the finish, sharp tools do help but they seem to stay sharp for ages... and a dribble of cutting fluid from a squeeze bottle... helps the cut but also makes that lovely smoke...


 How did you make the square holes? Milling a slot and welding on a plate? yep, took a slice off it, milled the slot and then welded the slice back on ground away the welds... easy...

You HAD to go and paint yours didnt ya? Now Im going to have to do mine..... 

Get it together and start cutting... start small and experiment... you'll work it out..

Cheers Rob

[Trion]

1mm cuts you say? I better start buying parts for making automatic end stops on the machine!
As I want as little smoke as possible in my shop, would it be possible to use water based coolant, like on the mill?

Haha, of course I had to paint it! Now I'm looking forward to seeing painting pictures of yours too


A bit of progress yesterday:
Removed the badges from one of the doors, the green seems to have been the original paint. Wish I found this earlier.


Wire brushed the serrated handle and prema badge. Also removed old paint from the copper badge with a razor blade, and gave it a quick polish.


Then I went on and cleaned more parts with ethanol.


Also cleaned the inside of the table. I am thinking of painting this and some other "internal" parts in a contrast color, like they did when the machine was new. I'm currently considering either red or white.


I even got time to clean the main slide. The white color is probably original, and was used as a contrast to the green. Might work with white and gray too

[AndreasL]

Machine label. It's made in the same town as the Sajo mill

Add the VMA machines as well as the Jochnick & Norman planers and hobbers (Don't know much about J&N or Prema actually.) and my little home town have refined a couple of "kilograms of steel" to be prude of I think. 

WHY didn't I realised this "from the beginnings" and when still living there?
Even if the peak of this companies was long gone long before that, the tradition is still there and great skilled people running there small shops and bussineses.

[Trion]

Not to mention the Värnamo machines, which I believe look very much like a mirrored copy of the Sajo mills.
Isn´t there a wise saying something like "you don´t know what you have until it´s gone"!? Your situation seems like a good example of that

You wouldnt happen to know a place where I would be able to purchase a original accessories for Prema or Sajo? I´m thinking like dividing heads or vises..

[cidrontmg]

Seriously  
I used to drive through Värnamo, several times every summer in the 60´s- 70´s, while still living in Finland. I remember Värnamo mostly for the enormous forests that surround it, and suddenly there was a "park city", by the river and lake Lagan. It was (still is) +/-  halfway between Jõnkõping and Helsingborg, and we usually stopped there. I was completely ignorant of there being such machine industry there. But maybe they didn´t exist then any more(?). I never imagined that Värnamo would have such a history of machine building. Wood (saw mills, furniture, etc.) I could easily understand, but heavy machines... I still find it hard to believe, somehow. Värnamo didn´t look at all like other cities with machine building industries. In the best of senses. Memories of 40-50 years ago...
 

[John Hill]

You wouldnt happen to know a place where I would be able to purchase a original accessories for Prema or Sajo? I´m thinking like dividing heads or vises..

Do you know any countries where these machines were exported to?  Sometimes it is easier to find parts for old machines in such places as having been imported to there the owners tend to keep the machinery longer and maybe more carefully.

John