My Prema Typ 02 shaper

[Trion]

Yup, dsquire guessed it! The latest addition to my shop is a Swedish Prema Typ 02 shaper. It came from a "high school" close to Trondheim, who were giving it away. So I arranged with a shipping company and got it home the ~1000km trip for 200£
It has not been used in over 10 years, so it needs a bit of attention to get into working shape..

Here it is on my small trailer


It was very top heavy, so I quickly decided to remove the ram and table to make the trip home safer


Loading it of in the shop


And there it is in place next to the mill. I have kept it on the fork lift to be able to move it around as I'm making small improvements


Lacking proper tools, I had to remove the whole table in one piece. That put my back on a proper test!


The ratchet mechanism can feed a gear either on the horizontal or vertical shaft, so I have feed both ways


Table from underneath


I plan to clean and paint the machine, so I removed all the covers


Here's the ram, gib and clapper box. The clapper box had to be opened with a rubber hammer..


The labeling on the gib is for the ram positioning. It only goes to 13cm(?), but I have measured the maximum ram stroke to 300mm


The scraping pattern is worn of the gib, but it is nowhere near the wear on the mill


I removed the tool slide. The tool slide nut looked like a homemade fix


The underside of the tool slide seems to have crashed with the main casting a few times.




Tool slide disassembled. There is a bit of wear in the screw bushing, will see if I decide to make a new bushing for that.


Then I removed the mounting block for the tool slide. It is being locked by an eccentric shaft from the top of the ram.
It had some blue marks on it, almost as if someone had tried to check its flatness


Front of the ram looked ok


Machine label. It's made in the same town as the Sajo mill


Here's the ratchet mechanism. Also showing signs of having been repaired a few times before.


Then I turned my attention to the table, and loosened it from the slides


Sideways slide looking fine


Up down slide also looking ok.


And the table. It is located to the slides by a key and can unfortunately not be swiveled.


After a quick wipe with an oil stone, I saw this mark. Someone has obviously broken out a piece of the T-slot, and here's the repair. Doesn't look too bad if you ask me.



Slide casing ready for wash and paint


The shaft where the ratchet is hinged on has cracked its casing, so someone has made a clamp to secure it in place. Works fine, so I'm going to leave it this way


All the components of the ram and table are now ready for cleaning and paint.


Here are some pictures of the rest of the machine.
There are only two pulley speeds


But the lever sticking out from the housing is a gear lever for 3 gears


I measured the maximum ram stroke to 300mm, should do me plenty


Top view inside the casing. On the bottom you can see the concrete floor



I have a few questions regarding the machine:
The machine has obviously been repainted, the inside of one cover is army green. Does anyone know how the original Prema color was? If not, I'm going to paint it grey-blue.



I have found these nipples around the entire machine. Are they supposed to be for grease or oil? Where can I get an oil gun to suit these?



Plans for the machine:
- Clean
- Function test of motor
- Paint
- Small fixes to get it into working shape
- Convert the machine to central lubrication. I'm thinking of using a power steering pump from a car, a small 3phase motor i have and make a sump in the bottom of the machine. My main question as of now, is what fittings to use to feed oil into the exising holes for the nipples
- Maybe redo the machine electrics to contactor steering, making it possible to add auto-stop switches to the machine

[Artie]

Man what a great score! You are going to love this machine.. I expect to read ravings in the near future!

I cant help you with much except the oil nipples.. you simply place the end or tip of the oil can onto the ball so it depresses it and pump away. Oil goes everywhere including into the moving surfaces. Perhaps they used to have a concave tip to allow some sort of seal.. no idea, mine are mostly on flat surfaces and even the spillage is used by the wiping motion...all the bosses that require oil on mine use oil cups..

Good luck... I see another convert.....

[John Hill]

Great machine!   Great little trailer too!

[dsquire]

Trion

Congratulations on your good fortune to make such a find. Glad to see that I was right on my guess. I have been watching for a post to see when you would get it but never expected it this soon. I also never expected to see that you have it all stripped down almost ready for paint. It looks like it is going to be a real good work horse for you. I am glad to see that you are giving it a new home and keeping it out of the scrapers hands.  I will be watching for further progress reports. 

Cheers 

Don

[Trion]

Thanks for the gratulations, I'm very pleased too, aspecially with it being so nice and small! Though I must say, shapers are looked upon as obsolete in Norway, and they are being given away or scrapped ever so often. Maybe an opportunity for a export business

Artie: Thanks! I believe/thought there are some oil guns having a suiting shape to seal onto the nipple, allowing oil to be forced in. Anyways, I want to remove many of them and make a system for central lubrication. Currently I'm thinking of using copper brake pipes for cars and just making many fitting sleeves to be a press fit inside the original nipple holes. Then fit the pipe into the sleeve and and punch them into the hole to lock the pipe in place. It will be a lot of pipes though..

John Hill: Thanks. The trailer wasn't behaving too great under the full load of the shaper though, hence the disassembly. But still, it got it home

dsquire: Thanks. You know how it is, something is new and exciting and all of a sudden every task just becomes fun and easy.
I'm currently debating wether I should tear the machine completely in pieces, to be able to steam wash the casing and give it a proper paint job, or just leave it as is, as the internals of the machine seem to be in nice condition.

But don't expect too many updates in the next weeks. My final exams are beginning very soon

[John Hill]

Trion, you sure have been busy with this machine!

In my opinion your shaper is what I would call a 'substantial' machine and also an 'honest' machine, honest in that it has seen some work in its time and shows a few scars from whatever mishaps and adventures it has been part of.

I think this machine would be good, cleaned, adjusted, lubricated and put to work rather than polished, painted and pampered to be some sort of glossy ornament.

Just my opinion of course!

[Trion]

I'm sorry John but our opinions differ on that matter. I like (ideally) to bring my machinery to a good condition regarding both looks and performance, preferrably before I start using them. This way, I know what I have and I allways have a good reason to keep it clean and tidy. I also find it very pleasing to have nice, functioning machines to look at and work on.

[AdeV]

Very nice Trion, I have tool envy here. I've been on the lookout for a low-cost shaper, no luck yet...

I like (ideally) to bring my machinery to a good condition regarding both looks and performance, preferrably before I start using them.

I admire your patience... I'm usually so impatient I barely have time to check the plug before I've got a new machine hooked up and working.... or going bang, whichever is applicable   

[John Hill]

I'm sorry John but our opinions differ on that matter. I like (ideally) to bring my machinery to a good condition regarding both looks and performance, preferrably before I start using them. This way, I know what I have and I allways have a good reason to keep it clean and tidy. I also find it very pleasing to have nice, functioning machines to look at and work on.

Im cool with that Trion  

[Trion]

Ade: Thanks! Well, there is this other free shaper located in the west of Noway, which i posted a link to a few days ago. All you need is a boat and a good excuse for the misses

John: That´s good to hear!


Does anyone have an opinion about my idea of trying to convert the machine to central lubrication? Waste of time and money, or a good investment to keep the machine as good as possible? Any experiences with retrofitted central lubrication?

[Artie]

Hey Trion, these machines are a little messy when you are talking oil, in fact they're very messy when talking chips... whatever... but oil, I give mine a squirt before i start it and unless its to be a longish job thats all it gets, its no issue and I wouldnt worry about central oiling if I were you. But, its your baby..

In relation to speeds, been thinking  I have a 4 speed shaper (as advertised) and it has a hand lever 2 speed gearbox and the 2 belt positions. Is yours a 2 speed gbox or 3? Yours could be a 6 speed shaper...although lord knows why.... Ive never had to move the belt on mine...

I always intended to paint mine but..... its still ala naturale, I did clean it though... thats gotta count....

Your pics touched a memory..sort of like Deja Vous.... only you used orange tie downs...



Mine after a clean and installed... a few smokin chips.. they get everywhere....

[Trion]

Artie: Looks like a nice machine you got there! Seems even a bit bigger than mine. Does your table swivel? Oh, I must admit i like the Mitsubishi in the background too

I get your point regarding the oiling. It would be a lot of work converting it to pump driven oil system, but it would also be a peace of mind. Though oiling the most important part, the ram, is going to be the most difficult as I would have to lay oil lines for each of the 10 holes currently occupied by oil nipples. Choices, choices..

My shaper has a 3 speed gearbox and two belt speeds
So when using the two gears, you use the lower one for steel and higher one for brass and alu?

[Artie]

Yours actually has a longer stroke than mine... It must be a bigger unit.. but no matter you WILL enjoy using it.... As its only slow moving not much oil gets thrown out. Try it and see, you can then make up your own mind.

Speeds.. Ive only used mine on steel, so I cant help you with speeds as Ive only used one  , Ill post a small vid so you can see the cadence, its not quick. If yours is 3 phase make sure its wired to run in the right direction, slower forward/faster return of the ram. Ive seen so many on youtube running backwards.

Click on the pic.... its sizing up QCTP tool holders, a couple at a time.... I use a plastic squeeze bottle to lay some cutting fluid on the surface to be cut (you can see it at the bottom of the shot).... the surface finish is extraordinary....

[Trion]

Artie, I think I'm going to go with your suggestion. Make the machine work, then decide whether regular oiling is enough or if I need to build a central lubrication.

Nice to see a video of your machine running. This leads me to the next question, is there any way to avoid smoke when using a shaper? My shop has very poor ventilation, so I'll be breathing the stuff for hours after the machine has stopped running.


I also have a question regarding dovetails. See illustration of a female dovetail below:

|----------------------------------|
|     left                           right     |
|             ______________            |
|________\         2          /_______|
      1                                 3

When machining the slot (2) on the shaper, you have roughed it out to a square first. Then you cut say the left dovetail, with a LH tool. After cutting the dovetail, the left side of the horizontal surface (2) is finished to depth. Then you change cutter for a right hand tool and cut the right dovetail. THEN, when you want to finish of the right part of the horizontal surface, how do you get this in the perfectly same plane as the left? This also applies to male dovetails, when cutting (1) and (3) surfaces.

[crabsign69]

nice . but i have coment on the straps holding that machine. u should really think about chains.  if u had to brake hard that machine would be in ur back  in about a second or less.
ive been to many wreaks  out on high ways its not a pretty pic when i have to lift a heavy piece of something off off bodys  for the fire department.
please people be aware of what your hauling around. trust me those straps will not hold.

but nice machine u got there

[Trion]

I get your point, but I wasn´t aware it was that bad. The small straps hold 500kg each and the large one meant for braking holds 1000kg, so I had strapped for 2500kg. The machine was said to weight 200kg, before I started disassembling it, so I felt quite safe.

[Artie]

  if u had to brake hard that machine would be in ur back  in about a second or less.

Not sure if your talking to Trion or me (or both), you are very entitled to your opinion... I travelled over 7 hours with that configuration... and I was very comfortable with it... 

Trion, I have pics of the dovetail cutting to show you but photobucket is down for maintenance... Ill drop em in a bit later... the beauty of the shaper is that all surfaces you cut without moving the item in the vice, are all parrallel and square to each other... nature of the machine... using the vernier gauge to change the angle has always given me excellent accuracy... as I can prove when the pics are available..

I roughed up the groove with my horizontal mill, and finished with the shaper. It would take a while with the shaper to remove all that metal but if you are patient, no problem ITS NOT A QUICK MACHINE...

Yes I use a left hand tool holder and a right hand tool holder and a vertical holder.  All of which I made from scratch, again, pics to follow. Its 8;30pm here right now, so probably in the morning (my time)...

Cheers  Rob T

[Artie]

Pics are back up..... romoved the centre material...





and the angle being cut.....



Pretty good result....



and the tooling used, made for the job, no need to buy it at all....

[Trion]

Artie, thanks for the detailed reply! I have read a largish book (250p) on shaper use, which I found here: http://www.neme-s.org/Shaper%20Books/shaper_book_page.htm It is called "Shaper Work". But your pictures put the words into practice and it all makes a bit more sense now!

To be honest, I saw a shaper for the first time when it was put on my trailer earlier this week, and I have yet to see one run. But I have heard rumors of them not being too efficient
What is the deepest cut you would dare to take on you shaper in steel? I have seen pictures of large shapers taking up to 2" deep cuts, not that I'm expecting that kind of cutting of small machines like ours..

Your pictures got my mind going, maybe I should start looking for horizontal milling arbors for the Sajo!?

I have some lathe tool holders that should fit the shaper, but yours look very nice. I like the idea of having them "indexable". How did you make the square holes? Milling a slot and welding on a plate?


Oh, I got some shop time yesterday evening too

I wanted to check the condition of the gearbox, so I removed its covers. The top cover is actually plexiglas!
I also found the securing screw (flat head) on the rear shaft to be loose (removed in the picture)


I removed it, cleaned the threads and screwed it back in properly. I also removed the remains of the old gasket around the sealing surfaces, before I mounted the covers again with some Locktite sealant.


Then I set out to clean the machine. I started with a wire brush, just to get all the hard oil and dirt away, the machine immediately looked a lot cleaner




Then I cleaned the entire machine with ethanol, sanded it down, wiped off with ethanol again, and masked the surfaces not to be painted. (I did mask the table support sliding surface after I took the photo)


I had thought to paint it in its original color, and got good help from several other Prema owners on practicalmachinist ( http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/prema-owners-unite-214311/ ) But I figured it would be difficult to find a color based on pictures, and I had quite a bit of grey-blue paint laying around.. To add to this, it was too late for any paint shops to be open, so I got cracking with what I had




The main housing needs another coat of paint, and then there are all the other bits and bobs also requiring some prettyness.. But it's getting there

[Artie]

What is the deepest cut you would dare to take on you shaper in steel? I have seen pictures of large shapers taking up to 2" deep cuts, not that I'm expecting that kind of cutting of small machines like ours..
Perhaps only 1mm or so, the lighter the cut the better the finish, sharp tools do help but they seem to stay sharp for ages... and a dribble of cutting fluid from a squeeze bottle... helps the cut but also makes that lovely smoke...


 How did you make the square holes? Milling a slot and welding on a plate? yep, took a slice off it, milled the slot and then welded the slice back on ground away the welds... easy...

You HAD to go and paint yours didnt ya? Now Im going to have to do mine..... 

Get it together and start cutting... start small and experiment... you'll work it out..

Cheers Rob

[Trion]

1mm cuts you say? I better start buying parts for making automatic end stops on the machine!
As I want as little smoke as possible in my shop, would it be possible to use water based coolant, like on the mill?

Haha, of course I had to paint it! Now I'm looking forward to seeing painting pictures of yours too


A bit of progress yesterday:
Removed the badges from one of the doors, the green seems to have been the original paint. Wish I found this earlier.


Wire brushed the serrated handle and prema badge. Also removed old paint from the copper badge with a razor blade, and gave it a quick polish.


Then I went on and cleaned more parts with ethanol.


Also cleaned the inside of the table. I am thinking of painting this and some other "internal" parts in a contrast color, like they did when the machine was new. I'm currently considering either red or white.


I even got time to clean the main slide. The white color is probably original, and was used as a contrast to the green. Might work with white and gray too

[AndreasL]

Machine label. It's made in the same town as the Sajo mill

Add the VMA machines as well as the Jochnick & Norman planers and hobbers (Don't know much about J&N or Prema actually.) and my little home town have refined a couple of "kilograms of steel" to be prude of I think. 

WHY didn't I realised this "from the beginnings" and when still living there?
Even if the peak of this companies was long gone long before that, the tradition is still there and great skilled people running there small shops and bussineses.

[Trion]

Not to mention the Värnamo machines, which I believe look very much like a mirrored copy of the Sajo mills.
Isn´t there a wise saying something like "you don´t know what you have until it´s gone"!? Your situation seems like a good example of that

You wouldnt happen to know a place where I would be able to purchase a original accessories for Prema or Sajo? I´m thinking like dividing heads or vises..

[cidrontmg]

Seriously  
I used to drive through Värnamo, several times every summer in the 60´s- 70´s, while still living in Finland. I remember Värnamo mostly for the enormous forests that surround it, and suddenly there was a "park city", by the river and lake Lagan. It was (still is) +/-  halfway between Jõnkõping and Helsingborg, and we usually stopped there. I was completely ignorant of there being such machine industry there. But maybe they didn´t exist then any more(?). I never imagined that Värnamo would have such a history of machine building. Wood (saw mills, furniture, etc.) I could easily understand, but heavy machines... I still find it hard to believe, somehow. Värnamo didn´t look at all like other cities with machine building industries. In the best of senses. Memories of 40-50 years ago...
 

[John Hill]

You wouldnt happen to know a place where I would be able to purchase a original accessories for Prema or Sajo? I´m thinking like dividing heads or vises..

Do you know any countries where these machines were exported to?  Sometimes it is easier to find parts for old machines in such places as having been imported to there the owners tend to keep the machinery longer and maybe more carefully.

John

[Trion]

I can only guess they were exported to the scandinavian countries and possibly other parts of north western europe.
From what I have heard, Prema and Sajo machines are still very popular in Sweeden, with quite a few still in use. Here in Norway the machining industry is mainly supplying the oil industy, so no place for old mills and shapers there

Cidrontmg: My Sajo mill was made in 1974 (err, I meant 1971). No idea when the shaper was made.

[Trion]

Small update. I snook out one evening after having studied the whole day for my coming exam, and got some actual work done!

Cleaned all the remaining parts that need to be painted


Quite a few..


And started sanding down the main door


While sanding down the letters I got some ideas. The background paint around the label has obviously been red at one time, and I'm thinking I'll paint it the same. But wouldn't it look nice with shiny letters painted with clear paint? Or am I just being fuzzy?

[AndreasL]

Afraid I can't help you regarding sources for parts etc more then what I already mentioned in my PM.

Din Maskin in Värnamo is the official supplier of Sajo-parts in these days I think.

One can also check out www.industritorget.se for spares etc. From that web site you find links to most every company doing business with machines and parts. Many (most?) of them located in Värnamo or nearby. Prices tend to differ though and adverted level maybe set a bit to the high end.

As to when the "hay days" of machine production in Värnamo took place I am not 100% sure, but at least from the -50: s to -late -80: s this business was big. Really big, I think.

Only downside about these brands if sought for in Sweden may bee there reputation as sturdy, accurate and "atom bomb proof" = you got to pay if the seller knows what he or she is selling. But when the iron is well in you’re shop, you have big chances that the machine will outlive a generation or two if given some TLC every now and then. ;)

@ The Prema sine I think you should paint it all red and then sand down the letters and frame to let it stand out. Yes I know, it may be a bit extreme, but having the opportunity and all, it’s nice to have nice locking stuff. 


Good luck at the exams! I'm 200% sure you doing the right thing taking some time to clear your head. Remembers me about the few times applying this method my self. Worked much better then trying to force information, 24/7, to an already full hard drive the last days befor a big exam. 

[Artie]

Hi again, witht reference to this quote "Or am I just being fuzzy?", this is YOUR machine.... I think you should be as 'fuzzy' as you want to be... 

[Trion]

I looked at industritorget. Prices are similar to bay prices elsewhere in europe. Thanks for the tip!

Will see what I deicide upon regarding the door emblem, it´s gonna be a bit extra work polishing the letters and painting them with clear paint to avoid rusting. But then again, it will look nice

But today I also spent the evening in the shop, now almost all parts have got their first coat of grey paint. I can probably make the second application this weekend, and finally start the assembly of the machine again

[slowcoach]

Hi Trion, Great looking machine  , Did you use any type of undercoat before painting the machine? I ask because i'm thinking of painting my little shaper (alba 10"), the paint I have is a floor paint (Johnstone's grey) which I believe will be ok to use.

Excellent thread by the way

Rob

[Bluechip]

Rob

Try Bondaprimer. Sticks to damn near anything, including aluminium. ... and fingers ...

Dave BC

[slowcoach]

Hi Dave

Bondaprimer, Is that availible at say Halford or specialist paint suppliers?

Cheers
Rob

[Bluechip]

Rob

Used to get it at Halfords, dunno now ...

Frost Auto Restoration may have it ..

Not in the sheds generally, but try a search online..

Dave BC

EDIT  Two guesses ... and neither have it ... story of my life .. however, first off the net at random

http://www.marinemegastore.com/product-product-AQU_Q05167.htm

So it does exist ..

If you want some, you could try some of the 'privateer' car accessory shops.

Better bet than the likes of Halfords for owt useful. But then Mothercare would be ... 

Cannot remember any time in the last 20 yrs. I've gone into any multi, and found what I want ... useless .. grump, grump, grump ... etc

D BC

[Trion]

Before painting, I only washed with ethanol and sanded the surfaces roughly. The paint I use is a one component cheap machine paint, same brand as I used on the head on the Sajo mill.

Now all the parts have gotten a first coat of paint. Still waiting for them to dry, in my -4deg. celsius shop


Painted the inside of the table as well


Door


Ram


Covers etc.


And some more covers


I also bought myself a pair of new belts for the shaper, as the old one was pretty worn!


I hope to make the first chips sometime by christmas

[Darren]

Crikey, are you getting the paint to dry at -4C?

I'm having trouble here at 1 or 2C with my car bits, had to leave it for now till it warms up a bit.


Love the thread (as always) ... 

[Trion]

Was just out in the shop applying the second layer. It was still -4 when I got there, but I let a heating gun heat the shaper casting for about an hour, until most of it was comfortably warm. Paint should be dry by the weekend

Glad you enjoy the read

[slowcoach]

cheers dave, Buurrrr -4 

[Trion]

Apparently paint dries at minus 5 too (don't know if I should laugh or cry..)


Removed all the paint masking on the casing. Here you also see the heating gun desperately trying to heat up the casting


Disassembled the clapper box, to make it clap again




I also noticed that the tool slide nut seems like a repair job


The tool slide and clapper box are all numbered 20


While the main casting and almost all other parts are numbered 10. This makes me believe the tool slide has seen some serious damage, and has been changed. Makes sense, as this machine comes from a school.



Then my camera decided that it needed to be charged, so a couple of hours work missing here..

Aand about here it started to work again




Main saddle ready to be mounted




This is how I left it today, the following pictures are just gloating




One of my HSS tool holders from the lathe seemed like a good start for a shaper tool



The current assembly is just to get things together, in order to make a test of the machine. After all, I still don't know if it runs..
There are a few things that need to be sorted, amongst others, a few brass bearings that need replacement, the feed selector which isn't working and upper bearing on the "arm" which is shot.

I have also noticed that the paint has not dried properly in places where I sanded down to the filler material. Here the paint has just stayed gummy and is absorbing every little piece of dirt I manage to get on it

[Trion]

I got some more shop time this morning, and all of a sudden the machine looked like this


I filled up the gearbox with some hydraulic oil


And bodged up a 3phase connection. Suddenly things started moving
Still quite a few things that need to be improved, but it works. It doesn't make too many weird noises either!


Interresting to see in the transparent gearbox cover while stuff is running. It also shows how easily the gears start spinning when the clutch is not in absolutely "open" position


That's all folks. Now the tedious job of improving all the small bits and bobs begins

[slowcoach]

lovely job you've done to that shaper, it looks fantastic 

Rob

[cidrontmg]

That´s one nice shaper! It will be spitting chips all over the place anytime   
With temps that low in the shop, how do you keep steel/iron things from getting rusty? I had my shop without heating one winter, in Portugal, where it seldom goes down even to 0^o (although it´s 0^o outside right now...). In the spring, everything possible was rusty. Mostly just surface rust, but there are still rust pits in some of my tools. And some I had to throw away and replace. I had long sessions sanding, scratching, oiling and cleaning that rust away.
 

[Davo J]

Once you have it finished you will have a useful tool their. I have 2 and wouldn't part with either.
We never get down to 0 in my part of Australia either, but still get rust in the winter. I use a 20/80 motor oil kero mix sprayed onto all bare metal surfaces and tools before putting away. The kero thins it so it can be sprayed in a cheap spray bottle then evaporates leaving a thin film of oil behind.

Dave

[Trion]

Thanks for the kind words. I´m quite pleased with the result too

Regarding rust, I haven't had too many problems with that yet. My shop is an ex military storage with wall thicknesses that surely would survive a nuclear blast. This also makes temperature changes very slow. As long as the temps are going down, the parts inside my shop should be warmer than the outside air, not making condensation a problem. But of course, when outside temperatures and humidity rise, the machines may suffer from condensation. To prevent this, I keep all bare steel surfaces oiled with hydraulic oil at any time, well I try at least
But it looks like the winter is going to be a long one this year too, so in order to make my shop usable I will try to make a small room around my workbench and machines, and keep this at a steady temperature higher than 0. It is going to be a big part of the electrical bill, but it should be worth it!

[Rob.Wilson]

Looking great Trion 

Sure is a nice bit of kit to have around the shop 


Rob

[Artie]

It does look great mate, Ive had this discussion with a friend and we both agreed to leave the shaper and the HZ mill in their natural state, the shaper is almost 60 years old and the mill is just under 50 years old, preserve the 'patina' so to speak.....

but.... now after seeing this, im not so sure......... 

[Artie]

and cut some bloody metal already! And show us pics.....

[Trion]

Thanks Artie! Now you know how I felt, when searching through other peoples shaper rebuilds before I got mine

Before I can start cutting, I need/want to sort out the feed mechanism which is useless at the moment. There are also a few other things requiring my attention, but you´ll see when I get around to do something about it. The plan for today is shopping for christmas gifts, and maybe read for the next exam

[Trion]

I got a bit of shop time yesterday. Now with constant heating on in the shop, there was a comfy +5 degrees

First up was the sideways feedscrew, which looked to have been modified at some stage


The axial thrust is taken up directly by the dial (this is not entirely true, as the dial support is very rigid, while the dial can slide back and forth on it)


And on the other end, only a pair of "interlocking" nuts provide the support


So I found one of my precious brass bits and started turning


I call them thrust bearings




When assembling, I noticed that this brass washer brought the whole feed mechanism outwards and would bend the "feed shaft", so I had to remove it.


Here it is in place and tightened up


For rapid table feed on a manual shaper, a battery drill and an inverted hex bit prooved good results


I adjusted the table gibs, but while doing so I heard a small "ping" noise from two of the gib screws. They snapped right of, although I was only applying torque with the short end of a allen key



This screw holds the feed mechanism to the "feed adjusting plate", and frankly the cylindrical part is too short. When fully tightened it binds the feed mechanism to the plate, making it unable to rotate. This looked like a bit difficult machining for me, but I decided to give it a go


Roughed out the shape in some steel. No matter what I tried, I did not manage to get a nicer surface finish than this


Then there was time for the thread. You might think, that's easy, a Sweedish machine should have regular metric threads. But noooo, inches seemed to be the way of measuring back in the days. Knowing nothing about inch threads, my thread gauge figured it had a pitch of 11,5 per inch, so I had to change the gears on the feed.


After a few small blunders, my first actual single point thread came out. I figure why you all think a swinging threading tool might be handy


A bit later, and I parted the piece of. I even tested it on the threads, and it fit!


So next time, I'll have to mill a head on it

[DavidA]

Just think of all the things you can make with the machine.  To paraphrase H G Wells,  it's ' the shaper of things to come'.

Sorry about that.  Couldn't resist it.

Dave

[Trion]

Haha, nicely said Dave!

Yesterday I decided to make the hex head. Chucked the screw up in the vise with some aluminium pipe jaws, dialed in the cutter by using paper between the cutter and the part.


I had measured the total diameter of the end mill and the screw head, so taking care not to climb mill and keeping backlash out of the game, I milled the first two sides. I initually thought I'd settle for this, but I wanted to see if I could really make the hex head, so I progressed


Some more cutting, still using the same dial readings and avoiding backlash


Here's my flintsone way of aligning the part in the vise. I just pressed the nut against a flat on the screw, and checked its straightness with a small piece of plate.


It eventually came out like this


And snugly fit a 19mm wrench


Then I was able to mount the feed mechanism again, and it's now one step closer to being a usable little machine

[madjackghengis]

Hi Trion, it looks like you've got a fine machine there, as one who has lived with and around shapers for over twenty years, I would say you'd waste your time with central oiling, as was mentioned, generally, you oil it before you start, and unless you're pushing the machine such as using it for production line of a particular part, that's all the oil it will need for the day.  The smoke issue is best controlled by the cutting fluid used, I like the smell of old time sulferated lard oil for steel, so I put up with the smoke and enjoy the aroma.  The primary need for the different speeds is to compensate for length of stroke.  I currently use a 7 inch Atlas while I rebuild a 12 inch that's from the 1870s, I generally use the two slowest speeds for pieces two to five or six inches of cutting length, but while cutting keyways in a gear, and with a stroke of 3/4 of an inch, I often get up on the second from top speed and I've had occasion to use top speed, out of four belt speeds, for very small parts which I use it on occasionally.  As to keeping the bottoms of dovetail cuts even, generally, it is the outside of the dovetails which establish your plane of action, the bottoms are more for clearance, and they are usually put pretty close to the same using something like a cigarette paper to ensure the two tools are set to the same final height, or a shaper and planer gauge, used from the table as a base, and both tools set to it.  Occasionally the inside of a cut like that is used for the locating surface, in which case the shaper gauge is the best answer, along with the cigarette paper, which I tend to use with setting up for milling, and for setting tools right on, in the lathe as well.  I was taught that when I was about ten or so, and forty odd years later, they are still exactly one thousandth thick, and a cutter that tears the paper is touching metal, but not marking it, giving a perfect zero, plus or minus a couple of tenths, depending on the mechanic's sense of touch.  I probably get a year or so out of a pack of papers, as I use them until they are shredded to pieces and disappear.  They give me funny looks at the grocery store, but they don't know what I'm using them for.  They are also of great use for testing the flatness of something on a surface plate, or testing to see if a part is pulled down equally in a vise, or if a corner lifted up from clamping pressure.
    All in all, that is a beautiful find, and it should be a real workhorse for you, mine is, and I can't imagine working in a machine shop without one, having started off in shops which always had half a dozen or more, of all shapes and sizes.  While you're putting it all back together after repairs and paint, take the time to make sure all surfaces are square and parallel, and take a cut off the table, as fine a one as you can get away with, there will never be a better opportunity, and they are very finicky if they are not right, from the start, but worth their weight in gold if they are.  They make quick work of getting a flat seating surface, when that is what you need first, before you can do anything else on a part.
   All in all, I hope you get as much use and pleasure out of your shaper, as I do from my own. mad jack

[Trion]

Thanks for a very detailed reply!
It makes sense what you say about oiling, central lubrication is currently out of the question. The machine seems to do its own part of oiling, as the gearbox is leaking oil to the inside of the machine.
Appreciate you clearing me up on the dovetails, it still wasnt entirely clear to me. I had never heard about a shaper and planer gauge before now. They seem like a handy tool, but first I´m going to buy some cigarette paper the next time I´m going to the shop!
Yeah, before I start using the machine, I want to check that it is running true on all ways. Taking a cut of the table sounds a bit scary, I think I´m going to run a dial indicator over it quite a few times before I decide what to do with it!
Thanks again

[d-m]

Nice job on the restore looking top notch. Not wanting to hi jack anything here but wondering if this machine is kin to my Varnamo other than made in the same town? Any one have a varnamo ?
Dave

[Trion]

d-m: Thanks! I have no clue how this machine would relate to a Värnamo machine, but I have noticed that Värnamo mills look very much alike Sajo mills only mirrored! On practicalmachinist I have found quite a few people with shapers, maybe you'll find someone else with a Värnamo there?!

On to some progress. I milled a set of T-slot nuts


Cut them on the saw and deburred them


For a quick cutting test, I set up my drillpress vise on the table


And here we go making the first chips.
I still have lots of checking work to do on the machines accuracy, before I can start producing parts. A beefier vise would also come in handy..


Quite ok finish for being my first cut, but it is still a bit rough. Need to make a few tool holders and grind up some tools.

[cidrontmg]

On to some progress. I milled a set of T-slot nuts

Well, you could have done that with the shaper also!         
The drill vise does indeed look a bit puny on the shaper table, although it probably looks rather huge on the drill press. But it seems to do what it was supposed to do, anyway. And the Prema is making chips all right!
You don´t seem to have any coolant, at least there´s no smoke issuing from the cutter.   
The clapper box seems to have the usual lantern type (or "American") tool holder. And the tool tip in such clapper constructions will be quite far ahead from the hinge pin. I don´t know if you have had time to experiment with all sorts of tool geometries, workpiece materials, etc. to notice if the tool would have a tendency to "bounce", both on initial contact with the workpiece, and on the return stroke. And mark the workpiece. Mr. Rudy Kouhoupt had a small shaper with a similar clapper construction, and he was annoyed enough with that phenomenon that he modified his clapper box, and got rid of the marks and irregularity. Your clapper box construction seems to have the problem even worse than Rudy´s machine! There´s a very good description of what Rudy did to his machine in "The Shop Wisdom of Rudy Kouhoupt", Vol. 3, ISBN 0-941653-64-1, Village Press, Inc. The book is rather expensive, but very good also otherwise. Secondhand copies are often available. If you can arrange/lend a copy, it might be useful to see what I´m talking about! But maybe the Prema doesn´t have such an issue at all. (I´m afraid it will, though...    )
 

[Trion]

Cidrontmg: Thanks for the reply!
Of course could the T-slot nuts have been made on the shaper, but I would need some T-slot nuts and clamps to bolt the piece of stock to the table first.
I did add some coolant, or cutting oil as it is called. It is the brown stuff you can see on the pictures. But there wasn´t too much smoke, maybe I´m running the machine too slow?
I do not understand how the clapper box might be a problem, but then I don´t know much about shapers either. When cutting, the clapper box will seat and there should be no bouncing, and on the return stroke to tool should and does lift. I have read something about cutters digging in when the cutting edge is in front of the axis it is flexing about. I can´t believe the clapper box would flex, so this leaves it to the tool holder? Please explain

[Artie]

Hi mate, Cidrontmg is referring to the tool cutting face in relation to the pivot point of the clapper box. I had no tooling when I acquired mine and quickly ripped these up on the shaper (quite roughly). I just used a large piece of tool steel on the clapper holder and then 8mm in these from there on.

Works a treat with a fine finish and decent metal removal capabliities. Therefore I havent worried about the setback tool holders... it ain broken, Im not gonna fix it!

I was sooooo lucky when I got mine.. the seller rang me a few weeks later, he had dug up the original vice for it. A decent shaper (rigid) vice is critical and as you paid nothing for the machine it wouldnt be bad value to have to buy a decent shaper vice. Ebay often have then from time to time. I shaper vice is SOLID, has a large footprint (for its size) and is flattish (low height). You will need one that approximately fits the machine so the mount holes are able to line up. So you DONT want one off a Cincinnati with a 36" stroke... 

[Trion]

I have tried some more shaping, with mixed results.

I tried grinding a finishing shear tool


With a very large radius on the tip


But the results were not all good. Initially I had a lot of chatter on the far end of the workpiece, but I discovered that there was a bit of oil in the clapper box, making it stick. Cleaned off all the oil, it clapped nicer and the results were better.


On the close end, the surface is very smooth to the touch


But on the far end, obvious problems with chip drag are evident and it feels much rougher. Also the clapper tends to bounce a bit on the return stroke. Is this the problem you are referring to, regarding having the cutting edge in front of the hinge?


After having shaped all 4 sides of the piece, i got out my micrometer and measured it.. Not pleased, but I reckon I can't expect much from the drill press vise


But I felt something was wrong, so I got out a pair of dial indicators and ran them over the table.
The edge you see behind the dial indicators is about 0,05mm (0,002") taller than the point where the indicators are standing. I am considering just cutting down this entire rear surface 0,2mm on the mill, which should allow me to run the shaper over the rest of the table. But first I need to get my tool geometries and clapper box in order.


The table rises about 0,04mm (0,002") towards the front end of the machine. I can't remember the numbers, but it is far from perfect sideways too.

[Artie]

Gday mate, the shearing tool is not used to actually remove metal in any quantitys, as the name suggests its to achieve a finish and the cut should be in the order of 0.1 of a mm rather than the 1 mmm cuts that a smallish shaper can do... having said that, even on deepish cuts I get a good finish. I dont know why, I just read the book I sent you and used those simple principles.

My finish is identical at the start of the stroke as it is at the end of the stroke... I dont have enough experience to know what shappening there....

I do think the table has to be as flat as possible and Id get the finish of your cut right, then use the machine to cut  the table itself... thats assuming you have enough stroke to do the whole table in one cut....

Keep at it, its all about patience... good luck....

Almost forgot..if you suspect the vice in any way, try clamping the stock directly to the table like you do in the milling machine.... see what happens then, it may well be chatter induced bya flexing vice... there a reason why shaper vices are so stout...

[Trion]

Hi Artie, thanks for another reply
The shearing tool was only used on very light cuts, but it still gave a finish a bit too rough for my liking. I did try with and without cutting oil and used the slowest feed possible. Regarding the book you are talking about, I never got it. Must have been to big for my E-mail account or something.

I have not checked if my stroke is long enough to take a cut of the entire table, but I sure hope so! I tried a bit of shaping yesterday on a smallish part, but the flimsy vise was not able to hold the part for any depth of cut. I need to make myself a set of clamps and ramp blocks to be able to clamp parts to the table, but It sounds like a job worth doing!


By the way, I figured out a quick way to get the vise square-ish though
Here I'm using a steel ruler in the vise and a square against the shaper column.

[Trion]

Just finished a small project for the shaper the other day


Some testing revealed that a undercut was needed


And here we are


It's a universal too

[Artie]

Thats a great idea mate, Ill definately give taht a go. While we are here, ditch teh vice and clamp the work directly to the table and start cutting, use a plate bolted down as a stop to take teh cuting loads. Lots of work is done that way as well as the vice.

GET CUTTING! I wanna see results (and your journey)

Cheers

[Trion]

Thanks! It's all slow going nowadays so I don't get much done with the shaper yet..

But I have started on building a central lubrication system for the ram Many of the oil nipples were broken, not allowing any oil to enter. I could have replaced them with regular grease nipples, but I don't really like to have oil in a grease gun. It gets messy real fast! So I have decided to make a cheap and simple lubrication system.

It all started out when I wanted to try internal threading. I found a piece of aluminium pipe and after a bit of fiddeling about I got an M??x1,0 thread in it. I figured I should use my newly made thread for something, so I made a screw to fit. (if you look at the picture, I parted the screw off with my HSS parting blade under power. It is stainless, and I'm mighty proud of it! )


The parts even screw together


Since I now had a lid i needed a bottom in my evolving tank, so I turned up one in aluminium and pressed it in with a bit of LockTite gasket sealant


I also threaded the bottom hole M12 to take a M12-3/8"NPT fitting. The ugly cut in the edge of the parts is from the water jet starting point, I bought a load of metal from a cutting company a while back.



And here we are today. I have begun adapting the shaper for central lubrication by pulling out the damaged old oil nipples and replaced them with flanged brake lines hammered into the holes. Will also need to make a distribution manifold for the oil lines.

[Bryan]

Hi Trion. I don't know what you have in mind exactly, but I have learned something about lubrication systems from my shaper that might be worth sharing. Most of my lines go from the pump around the top of the machine, with one going down to the main shaft. All the oil drains back to the low point, leaving the lines empty and a mess on the floor. When you pump next, oil comes out at the main shaft after maybe 2 pumps, the near side ram way 8 or 10, and the far side way can take 20 or more pumps to get oil. You can imagine the mess on the floor after 20 pumps! This is a very bad system, and may explain why I have the only HM45 left on the planet.

So my advice is: Think about gravity and line length. Most of all, verify that oil is actually getting to where it should,  in appropriate amounts. Hope this helps.

PS: I'm moving to Norway, where they give away machine tools!

[Trion]

Hi Bryan, thanks for your concern! I sounds like TOS didn´t think that one through properly!
Not being cocky, but I believe I have thought of this in my design, but I´m not 100% sure before I have tested it. My plan is to have the oil reservoir about 40 cm above the ram and have gravity feed oil around. There is going to be a ball valve on the oil line from the reservoir, so that i can have no oil flow when not in use, but just have to open the valve before I start the machine. I have only made the system to oil the ram as that is where the broken oil nipples were. As I haven't tested it yet, I can only hope that oil distributes evenly amongst the oil lines due to the little pressure applied by gravity and little flow though each oiling point. The oiling points are at within 5cm (2") apart heightwise, so I hope the pressure difference won´t be a problem.
When the oil leaves the ram it either runs down at the front of the machine oiling the ways and then leaves a mess, or it leaves at the back of the machine on a tray where I am planning to make a simple way of collecting it.

[Trion]

Here are the parts for the central lubrication system. Notice the drain in the rear cover, that's my plan on minimizing oil spill


Manifold with brake lines pressed in. They were hammered in, so some got bent a bit


Making the mount and trial fitting the parts


Manifold placement


Here's the frame getting a coat of paint


I hope the paint is dry tomorrow, then I'll mount it properly and connect all the hoses

[Trion]

The ram lubrication system is now finished
I do realize that it is far from beautiful.
I didn't think the rubber hoses would look that "alien" on the old girl, but this time beauty was put aside by function. At least I won't have to worry about running the ram dry when in use

[AndreasL]

As always, youre posts are a joy to read.

Keep the good spirit!

I know I dont, regarding the TLC my machine/shop needs. 
Time time time... Always blame lack of time... 

[Trion]

Thanks

I know, it is not allways easy to take the time to give the machines what they need. That is why I spend so much time on making stuff that eases this job, to make sure it gets done every time. Currently i have the most pleasure of my hinged motor mount on the band saw which allows me to change speeds within seconds.