Author Topic: My Prema Typ 02 shaper  (Read 46225 times)

Offline Trion

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2010, 02:48:51 AM »
Haha, nicely said Dave!

Yesterday I decided to make the hex head. Chucked the screw up in the vise with some aluminium pipe jaws, dialed in the cutter by using paper between the cutter and the part.


I had measured the total diameter of the end mill and the screw head, so taking care not to climb mill and keeping backlash out of the game, I milled the first two sides. I initually thought I'd settle for this, but I wanted to see if I could really make the hex head, so I progressed


Some more cutting, still using the same dial readings and avoiding backlash


Here's my flintsone way of aligning the part in the vise. I just pressed the nut against a flat on the screw, and checked its straightness with a small piece of plate.


It eventually came out like this :D


And snugly fit a 19mm wrench :)


Then I was able to mount the feed mechanism again, and it's now one step closer to being a usable little machine :ddb:

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2010, 09:32:15 AM »
Hi Trion, it looks like you've got a fine machine there, as one who has lived with and around shapers for over twenty years, I would say you'd waste your time with central oiling, as was mentioned, generally, you oil it before you start, and unless you're pushing the machine such as using it for production line of a particular part, that's all the oil it will need for the day.  The smoke issue is best controlled by the cutting fluid used, I like the smell of old time sulferated lard oil for steel, so I put up with the smoke and enjoy the aroma.  The primary need for the different speeds is to compensate for length of stroke.  I currently use a 7 inch Atlas while I rebuild a 12 inch that's from the 1870s, I generally use the two slowest speeds for pieces two to five or six inches of cutting length, but while cutting keyways in a gear, and with a stroke of 3/4 of an inch, I often get up on the second from top speed and I've had occasion to use top speed, out of four belt speeds, for very small parts which I use it on occasionally.  As to keeping the bottoms of dovetail cuts even, generally, it is the outside of the dovetails which establish your plane of action, the bottoms are more for clearance, and they are usually put pretty close to the same using something like a cigarette paper to ensure the two tools are set to the same final height, or a shaper and planer gauge, used from the table as a base, and both tools set to it.  Occasionally the inside of a cut like that is used for the locating surface, in which case the shaper gauge is the best answer, along with the cigarette paper, which I tend to use with setting up for milling, and for setting tools right on, in the lathe as well.  I was taught that when I was about ten or so, and forty odd years later, they are still exactly one thousandth thick, and a cutter that tears the paper is touching metal, but not marking it, giving a perfect zero, plus or minus a couple of tenths, depending on the mechanic's sense of touch.  I probably get a year or so out of a pack of papers, as I use them until they are shredded to pieces and disappear.  They give me funny looks at the grocery store, but they don't know what I'm using them for.  They are also of great use for testing the flatness of something on a surface plate, or testing to see if a part is pulled down equally in a vise, or if a corner lifted up from clamping pressure.
    All in all, that is a beautiful find, and it should be a real workhorse for you, mine is, and I can't imagine working in a machine shop without one, having started off in shops which always had half a dozen or more, of all shapes and sizes.  While you're putting it all back together after repairs and paint, take the time to make sure all surfaces are square and parallel, and take a cut off the table, as fine a one as you can get away with, there will never be a better opportunity, and they are very finicky if they are not right, from the start, but worth their weight in gold if they are.  They make quick work of getting a flat seating surface, when that is what you need first, before you can do anything else on a part.
   All in all, I hope you get as much use and pleasure out of your shaper, as I do from my own. :poke: mad jack

Offline Trion

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2010, 10:51:47 AM »
Thanks for a very detailed reply! :D
It makes sense what you say about oiling, central lubrication is currently out of the question. The machine seems to do its own part of oiling, as the gearbox is leaking oil to the inside of the machine. ::)
Appreciate you clearing me up on the dovetails, it still wasnt entirely clear to me. I had never heard about a shaper and planer gauge before now. They seem like a handy tool, but first I´m going to buy some cigarette paper the next time I´m going to the shop!
Yeah, before I start using the machine, I want to check that it is running true on all ways. Taking a cut of the table sounds a bit scary, I think I´m going to run a dial indicator over it quite a few times before I decide what to do with it!
Thanks again :wave:

Offline d-m

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2010, 09:50:56 PM »
Nice job on the restore looking top notch. Not wanting to hi jack anything here but wondering if this machine is kin to my Varnamo other than made in the same town? Any one have a varnamo ?
Dave
If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.
Mario Andretti

Offline Trion

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2011, 01:54:03 AM »
d-m: Thanks! I have no clue how this machine would relate to a Värnamo machine, but I have noticed that Värnamo mills look very much alike Sajo mills only mirrored! On practicalmachinist I have found quite a few people with shapers, maybe you'll find someone else with a Värnamo there?!

On to some progress. I milled a set of T-slot nuts


Cut them on the saw and deburred them


For a quick cutting test, I set up my drillpress vise on the table


And here we go making the first chips. :D
I still have lots of checking work to do on the machines accuracy, before I can start producing parts. A beefier vise would also come in handy..


Quite ok finish for being my first cut, but it is still a bit rough. Need to make a few tool holders and grind up some tools.

Offline cidrontmg

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2011, 07:32:49 PM »

On to some progress. I milled a set of T-slot nuts



Well, you could have done that with the shaper also!  :poke:        :)
The drill vise does indeed look a bit puny on the shaper table, although it probably looks rather huge on the drill press. But it seems to do what it was supposed to do, anyway. And the Prema is making chips all right!
You don´t seem to have any coolant, at least there´s no smoke issuing from the cutter.   :poke:
The clapper box seems to have the usual lantern type (or "American") tool holder. And the tool tip in such clapper constructions will be quite far ahead from the hinge pin. I don´t know if you have had time to experiment with all sorts of tool geometries, workpiece materials, etc. to notice if the tool would have a tendency to "bounce", both on initial contact with the workpiece, and on the return stroke. And mark the workpiece. Mr. Rudy Kouhoupt had a small shaper with a similar clapper construction, and he was annoyed enough with that phenomenon that he modified his clapper box, and got rid of the marks and irregularity. Your clapper box construction seems to have the problem even worse than Rudy´s machine! There´s a very good description of what Rudy did to his machine in "The Shop Wisdom of Rudy Kouhoupt", Vol. 3, ISBN 0-941653-64-1, Village Press, Inc. The book is rather expensive, but very good also otherwise. Secondhand copies are often available. If you can arrange/lend a copy, it might be useful to see what I´m talking about! But maybe the Prema doesn´t have such an issue at all. (I´m afraid it will, though...  :scratch:  )
 :wave:
Olli
Penafiel
Portugal

Offline Trion

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2011, 01:07:53 PM »
Cidrontmg: Thanks for the reply! :)
Of course could the T-slot nuts have been made on the shaper, but I would need some T-slot nuts and clamps to bolt the piece of stock to the table first. ::)
I did add some coolant, or cutting oil as it is called. It is the brown stuff you can see on the pictures. But there wasn´t too much smoke, maybe I´m running the machine too slow?
I do not understand how the clapper box might be a problem, but then I don´t know much about shapers either. When cutting, the clapper box will seat and there should be no bouncing, and on the return stroke to tool should and does lift. I have read something about cutters digging in when the cutting edge is in front of the axis it is flexing about. I can´t believe the clapper box would flex, so this leaves it to the tool holder? Please explain :scratch:

Offline Artie

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2011, 02:23:02 PM »
Hi mate, Cidrontmg is referring to the tool cutting face in relation to the pivot point of the clapper box. I had no tooling when I acquired mine and quickly ripped these up on the shaper (quite roughly). I just used a large piece of tool steel on the clapper holder and then 8mm in these from there on.

Works a treat with a fine finish and decent metal removal capabliities. Therefore I havent worried about the setback tool holders... it ain broken, Im not gonna fix it!

I was sooooo lucky when I got mine.. the seller rang me a few weeks later, he had dug up the original vice for it. A decent shaper (rigid) vice is critical and as you paid nothing for the machine it wouldnt be bad value to have to buy a decent shaper vice. Ebay often have then from time to time. I shaper vice is SOLID, has a large footprint (for its size) and is flattish (low height). You will need one that approximately fits the machine so the mount holes are able to line up. So you DONT want one off a Cincinnati with a 36" stroke...  :)

« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 02:31:26 PM by Artie »
South Wales, wait...NEW South Wales... Batemans Bay.

Offline Trion

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2011, 07:07:52 AM »
I have tried some more shaping, with mixed results.

I tried grinding a finishing shear tool


With a very large radius on the tip


But the results were not all good. Initially I had a lot of chatter on the far end of the workpiece, but I discovered that there was a bit of oil in the clapper box, making it stick. Cleaned off all the oil, it clapped nicer and the results were better.


On the close end, the surface is very smooth to the touch


But on the far end, obvious problems with chip drag are evident and it feels much rougher. Also the clapper tends to bounce a bit on the return stroke. Is this the problem you are referring to, regarding having the cutting edge in front of the hinge?


After having shaped all 4 sides of the piece, i got out my micrometer and measured it.. Not pleased, but I reckon I can't expect much from the drill press vise


But I felt something was wrong, so I got out a pair of dial indicators and ran them over the table.
The edge you see behind the dial indicators is about 0,05mm (0,002") taller than the point where the indicators are standing. I am considering just cutting down this entire rear surface 0,2mm on the mill, which should allow me to run the shaper over the rest of the table. But first I need to get my tool geometries and clapper box in order.


The table rises about 0,04mm (0,002") towards the front end of the machine. I can't remember the numbers, but it is far from perfect sideways too.

Offline Artie

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2011, 06:32:24 PM »
Gday mate, the shearing tool is not used to actually remove metal in any quantitys, as the name suggests its to achieve a finish and the cut should be in the order of 0.1 of a mm rather than the 1 mmm cuts that a smallish shaper can do... having said that, even on deepish cuts I get a good finish. I dont know why, I just read the book I sent you and used those simple principles.

My finish is identical at the start of the stroke as it is at the end of the stroke... I dont have enough experience to know what shappening there....

I do think the table has to be as flat as possible and Id get the finish of your cut right, then use the machine to cut  the table itself... thats assuming you have enough stroke to do the whole table in one cut....

Keep at it, its all about patience... good luck....

Almost forgot..if you suspect the vice in any way, try clamping the stock directly to the table like you do in the milling machine.... see what happens then, it may well be chatter induced bya flexing vice... there a reason why shaper vices are so stout...
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 06:35:28 PM by Artie »
South Wales, wait...NEW South Wales... Batemans Bay.

Offline Trion

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2011, 03:49:18 AM »
Hi Artie, thanks for another reply :thumbup:
The shearing tool was only used on very light cuts, but it still gave a finish a bit too rough for my liking. I did try with and without cutting oil and used the slowest feed possible. Regarding the book you are talking about, I never got it. Must have been to big for my E-mail account or something. :hammer:

I have not checked if my stroke is long enough to take a cut of the entire table, but I sure hope so! I tried a bit of shaping yesterday on a smallish part, but the flimsy vise was not able to hold the part for any depth of cut. I need to make myself a set of clamps and ramp blocks to be able to clamp parts to the table, but It sounds like a job worth doing!


By the way, I figured out a quick way to get the vise square-ish though :beer:
Here I'm using a steel ruler in the vise and a square against the shaper column.


Offline Trion

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2011, 02:13:19 AM »
Just finished a small project for the shaper the other day


Some testing revealed that a undercut was needed


And here we are :)


It's a universal too :beer:

Offline Artie

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2011, 05:17:59 PM »
Thats a great idea mate, Ill definately give taht a go. While we are here, ditch teh vice and clamp the work directly to the table and start cutting, use a plate bolted down as a stop to take teh cuting loads. Lots of work is done that way as well as the vice.

GET CUTTING! I wanna see results (and your journey)

Cheers
South Wales, wait...NEW South Wales... Batemans Bay.

Offline Trion

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #63 on: March 18, 2011, 03:10:51 AM »
Thanks! It's all slow going nowadays so I don't get much done with the shaper yet..

But I have started on building a central lubrication system for the ram ::) Many of the oil nipples were broken, not allowing any oil to enter. I could have replaced them with regular grease nipples, but I don't really like to have oil in a grease gun. It gets messy real fast! So I have decided to make a cheap and simple lubrication system. :dremel:

It all started out when I wanted to try internal threading. I found a piece of aluminium pipe and after a bit of fiddeling about I got an M??x1,0 thread in it. I figured I should use my newly made thread for something, so I made a screw to fit. (if you look at the picture, I parted the screw off with my HSS parting blade under power. It is stainless, and I'm mighty proud of it! :) )


The parts even screw together


Since I now had a lid i needed a bottom in my evolving tank, so I turned up one in aluminium and pressed it in with a bit of LockTite gasket sealant


I also threaded the bottom hole M12 to take a M12-3/8"NPT fitting. The ugly cut in the edge of the parts is from the water jet starting point, I bought a load of metal from a cutting company a while back.



And here we are today. I have begun adapting the shaper for central lubrication by pulling out the damaged old oil nipples and replaced them with flanged brake lines hammered into the holes. Will also need to make a distribution manifold for the oil lines.

Offline Bryan

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #64 on: March 18, 2011, 07:57:23 PM »
Hi Trion. I don't know what you have in mind exactly, but I have learned something about lubrication systems from my shaper that might be worth sharing. Most of my lines go from the pump around the top of the machine, with one going down to the main shaft. All the oil drains back to the low point, leaving the lines empty and a mess on the floor. When you pump next, oil comes out at the main shaft after maybe 2 pumps, the near side ram way 8 or 10, and the far side way can take 20 or more pumps to get oil. You can imagine the mess on the floor after 20 pumps! This is a very bad system, and may explain why I have the only HM45 left on the planet.

So my advice is: Think about gravity and line length. Most of all, verify that oil is actually getting to where it should,  in appropriate amounts. Hope this helps.

PS: I'm moving to Norway, where they give away machine tools!

Offline Trion

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2011, 02:36:51 AM »
Hi Bryan, thanks for your concern! I sounds like TOS didn´t think that one through properly! :poke:
Not being cocky, but I believe I have thought of this in my design, but I´m not 100% sure before I have tested it. My plan is to have the oil reservoir about 40 cm above the ram and have gravity feed oil around. There is going to be a ball valve on the oil line from the reservoir, so that i can have no oil flow when not in use, but just have to open the valve before I start the machine. I have only made the system to oil the ram as that is where the broken oil nipples were. As I haven't tested it yet, I can only hope that oil distributes evenly amongst the oil lines due to the little pressure applied by gravity and little flow though each oiling point. The oiling points are at within 5cm (2") apart heightwise, so I hope the pressure difference won´t be a problem.
When the oil leaves the ram it either runs down at the front of the machine oiling the ways and then leaves a mess, or it leaves at the back of the machine on a tray where I am planning to make a simple way of collecting it. :dremel:

Offline Trion

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2011, 06:01:09 PM »
Here are the parts for the central lubrication system. Notice the drain in the rear cover, that's my plan on minimizing oil spill :dremel:


Manifold with brake lines pressed in. They were hammered in, so some got bent a bit ::)


Making the mount and trial fitting the parts


Manifold placement


Here's the frame getting a coat of paint


I hope the paint is dry tomorrow, then I'll mount it properly and connect all the hoses :ddb:

Offline Trion

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #67 on: March 22, 2011, 04:06:19 PM »
The ram lubrication system is now finished :D
I do realize that it is far from beautiful.
I didn't think the rubber hoses would look that "alien" on the old girl, but this time beauty was put aside by function. At least I won't have to worry about running the ram dry when in use




Offline AndreasL

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #68 on: March 23, 2011, 06:36:26 AM »
As always, youre posts are a joy to read.

Keep the good spirit!

I know I dont, regarding the TLC my machine/shop needs.  :(
Time time time... Always blame lack of time...  ::) :poke:

Offline Trion

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Re: My Prema Typ 02 shaper
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2011, 03:59:43 AM »
Thanks :D

I know, it is not allways easy to take the time to give the machines what they need. That is why I spend so much time on making stuff that eases this job, to make sure it gets done every time. Currently i have the most pleasure of my hinged motor mount on the band saw which allows me to change speeds within seconds. :dremel: