Author Topic: Building the Division Master and modding my RT  (Read 61911 times)

Offline Bogstandard

  • Bogs Group
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1107
Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« on: December 17, 2010, 07:58:39 PM »
Despite offers from Kwackers and John Stevenson to assist me in making a RT electronic indexer, and having discussions with both, I decided that the best unit for myself would be a commercially available unit called a Division Master. This wasn't because of the others offered to me being an inferior product, but my personal limitations and workshop requirements.

I decided to go with the full kit of parts.

http://medw.co.uk/wiki/index.php?page=DivisionMaster

It was despatched and delivered in what seemed like record time.


The kit came very well packaged, with most of the loose bits stored inside the very strong and rigid steel outer case that has all the holes pre shaped, drilled or tapped, plus inside, there are all the required studs pre mounted into the case.
One thing I did like was the 'membrane' keyboard sheet. If you use the unit a lot, and wear it away or damage it, on the site you can download the overlay, print it out on a sheet of photo paper, and then laminate it, you have a brand new membrane. I actually used a few extra double sided strips on the back of it, but I am sure what it comes like is completely acceptable.




This is what was stored inside the case, after a load of bubble wrap was removed to expose it all.




Electronic bits came stuck down to an A4 printed sheet, with circuit board location and description against each component. So it was just a matter of taking a bit off the sheet, bending it up and sticking it into the right location holes on the board.




The same sort of sheet but with misc components and fixings.




You can buy ready printed and bound instructions, but I just downloaded the PDF files and did them myself.
There was a slight problem, which I will explain later.




So I got together some of my old tools that I used to use in my heyday with electronics.




But before doing anything, I had to prepare the stepper motor and power supply because as you build up the boards, you are required to check for voltages and correct operation. I bought my stepper from Arc Euro, about the cheapest place I have found. In fact I bought almost every extra that I needed from the same place.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Stepper-Motors

The little plastic box had a D shaped cutout put into it, to fit around the rubber grommet on the stepper. The back of the box was covered with strips of VERY hi-grip double sided tape (used to fit outside trim onto cars), and the box was 'stuck' onto the side of the motor.




After trimming all cables to length and getting everything tidied up and into the box, and a small wipe over with petroleum jelly onto the box joints (in an attempt to make it splash proof) the lid was fitted and the kit supplied plug was fitted to the other end of the cable. The stepper was now ready for use.




The power supply was off an auction site for 8 squid, brand new. It needed a new extended output cable and relevent plug fitted.




Now to start the build.

I followed the instruction book to the letter, first by fitting all the switches and LED onto the board, then by using spacers (washers & nuts) under the board, the correct height for the keys was found (the instructions had it spot on), and everything was tightened up. There is a little dodgy bit of soldering to be done, fitting the socket onto the BACK side of the board. The way I did it, to give me a bit more room to work underneath the socket was to push the pins thru the plastic socket until the were level with the bottom on the inside. After soldering up, you can just push the outer plastic down to the correct height above the board.




This is what it looked like from the other side.




A couple of hours steady work and the board was built. During the build, you check the power supply is working correctly, and when it is to this stage, you attach the stepper and take it thru a set of checks. All worked fine, for a while.




This is the other end of the board.




Everything was going great. The box sockets were fitted and the main board fitted into the box.

It was at this stage my physical limitations came into play. As most will know, I have very little gripping power on my right hand (hence the need for this box). I had just put the ribbon cable from the keyboard to the main board, and then my hand decided to let go of the keyboard side of the box. It ripped the socket from the keyboard card and also took off most of the solder pads. Unfixable to someone of my limited physical capabilites. What was I to do?
I sent Lester (the chap who sells the kits) an email stating my plight. The reply was basically, send the boards and ribbon cable to me, and I will see what I can do. Posted to him on Wednesday, got them back today, Friday, all repaired and functioning perfectly, He also told me that I had damaged a pad on the main board and hadn't soldered a pin on the main pic socket, which he duly put right.
So it looks like I am losing a few more faculties as well, my eyesight.
I just cannot believe the help he gave me, and I am sure, if I need anything else from his range of items, I will have no qualms about doing so.




This is the now fully functioning unit.



So now a bit about the build instructions.

I had noticed that some parts that were supplied were not mentioned, namely different coloured wires and circuit board spades and Lucar clips, rather than soldering direct to the board. On contacting Lester about this, he informed me that some data had been lost from his website a while ago, and he had reloaded the OLD set of build instructions by mistake. But he has assured me that the corrections are being done as quickly as possible. But with regards to the build sequence, if you use your noggin, you can easily get a working module.

What do I think of this kit?

Not just because I bought it, I think it is a very simple build, which someone with soldering and working with electronics experience will have no troubles building. My problems with it were caused purely because of my physical limitations.

The second part of this post will be about doing the mods to my RT so that this box can control it.

A bit of machine work at last.

Bogs
If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

Location - Crewe, Cheshire

Skype - bandit175

Offline Divided he ad

  • WARNING: LIKES SHINEY THINGS
  • The Collective
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1950
  • Country: gb
  • Between Chester, Wrexham, ruthin & Holywell :-)
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2010, 09:40:20 PM »
Nice!    Powered RT's they're very :borg:  I barely know how to get the most out of my RT manually  ::)


I can see where this is really going to make life easier for you John  :thumbup:



"Old tools" maybe, but nothing wrong with that lot.... Really like the funky leg bender doofor you showed me a while back  :borg:





Still learning...






Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2010, 03:20:26 AM »
Great stuff John

Can't wait to see it in action some of its features you were telling me about have lots of possibilities for interesting fly wheels and such.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline John Hill

  • The Artful Bodger
  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • Country: nz
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2010, 03:41:54 AM »
Great work John!  Now I will need to read up a bit as I am not even sure what this device is for.... :loco:

But the kit is really good and I reckon even Bandit could have built much of that they way the bits and instructions are presented.  Full marks Lester.

John
From the den of The Artful Bodger

Offline John Hill

  • The Artful Bodger
  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • Country: nz
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2010, 03:47:29 AM »
OK, a few minutes went by and I took a look at the Division Master site.

Hmmm, so this device drives your rotary table according to the number of division you require?

Does it have other uses too?


Bedtime now...
From the den of The Artful Bodger

Offline Bogstandard

  • Bogs Group
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1107
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2010, 04:38:19 AM »
John,

There is a bit more to it than just working as a dividing head, plus unlike a normal DH, you can get ALL the holes you require, on most DH's, there are usually some holes that you can't get (unless you opt for the even more expensive Universal DH). It can be easily programmed to turn thru arcs, so it allows you to machine curved slots, say making a ten spoked flywheel etc etc.

So really, it is up to your imagination and programming prowess (a thing I now have to learn).

If you are into the technical programming side of things, I would suggest you download the operating instructions from the website. That should give you more insight into what it can do.

There are other posts on here where the lads are building their own versions of this bit of kit.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=3696.0


John
If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

Location - Crewe, Cheshire

Skype - bandit175

Rob.Wilson

  • Guest
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2010, 04:59:10 AM »
Looking great John  :thumbup:

Very comprehensive kit of parts ,,,,,,,, i am tempted to have ago myself  :dremel:


Rob

Offline John Stevenson

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1643
  • Nottingham, England.
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2010, 06:03:56 AM »
Looking great John  :thumbup:

Very comprehensive kit of parts ,,,,,,,, i am tempted to have ago myself  :dremel:


Rob

Will your MiG welder go low enough to weld the chips on ?

John S.
John Stevenson

Offline Bogstandard

  • Bogs Group
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1107
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2010, 06:28:58 AM »
I thought John would have to bring a bit of humour into it. :lol:

But, have a look here and see what John has managed to do with his box of tricks.

http://divisionmaster.co.uk/divisionmaster.html

Click on 'Examples of use' under the main heading.

You don't need to use expensive RT's or dividing heads if you don't want to.


Bogs



If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

Location - Crewe, Cheshire

Skype - bandit175

Rob.Wilson

  • Guest
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2010, 07:08:11 AM »
Looking great John  :thumbup:

Very comprehensive kit of parts ,,,,,,,, i am tempted to have ago myself  :dremel:


Rob

Will your MiG welder go low enough to weld the chips on ?







John S.

 :doh: just looked ,,,nope  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Rob  :coffee:

Offline John Swift

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 344
  • Country: england
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2010, 05:06:44 PM »
Hi Bogs ,

looks like a very good kit   :thumbup:

just what you need if you don't have the equipment to program the ic or  make the pcb for a diy indexer
(another plus not having to buy the bits from  several suppliers - usually I have to use 2 or 3 for most of my projects )

the green solder resist  on the professional looking  pcb's will help you to avoid short circuits , if some tracks pass between the ic pins !
something you miss on diy boards

I like the way you have extended the motor leads with the 4 core mains cable

I'll have to copy that when I eventually make one  (it may be some time before I have a milling machine )

is the dc power connector a locking type ?   (   like  rapidonline's 20-0892  )

the time it will save will let you spend more time on your projects   :D

 John




Offline Bogstandard

  • Bogs Group
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1107
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2010, 05:58:52 PM »
John,

Like I said at the start, there are other ways to achieve the same results, but it is up to the individual as to what course to take.

Both Kwackers and John S answered all my queries, and with that info, I decided to go the kit route, mainly because it would be easier for me, and because I didn't have room for the extras required in my shop, namely a laptop.

Arc Euro were out of the normal cable when I was getting the other bits together, so a trip to B&Q came up with some 0.75mm 4 core central heating cable, and I just made a note of where the new colours went to, but is in fact, a little more expensive than Arc's offering (which was back in stock the last time I looked). I actually have a 2 metre long cable on the stepper, as the DM box will be mounted onto the side of my mill's head, not trailed about as normal. The power cable plug isn't a locking one, I just rooted in my shop for one that fitted the socket supplied. It shouldn't be a problem for me as the box should remain almost stationary, and won't be able to be pulled out easily, especially as the power supply will be permanently fixed to the wall behind the mill.

Quote
the time it will save will let you spend more time on your projects

In fact John, it isn't a time saving exercise for me at all, it will most probably be slower than I would normally have done it manually.
 
Without this bit of kit, I will very soon be unable to operate my RT at all with any accuracy. So really it is allowing me more time to continue machining, before eventually I am forced to stop. It could be a year, or ten years, at this time, I have no way of knowing. But anything is better than nothing.

But that anything was certain to cost, no matter which way I went.


Bogs
If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

Location - Crewe, Cheshire

Skype - bandit175

Offline HS93

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 788
  • Country: gb
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2010, 09:48:10 PM »
I did my cables this way,I wanted long cables so a clever frend worked out the min cable size and I got some with a bit to spare in case i drew a bit to much current and used cable mesh avalable from http://www.heatshrink-online.co.uk/heatshrink/cat_147046--019-Black-Expandable-Braided-Sleeving.html    good service also handy for things like heat shrink with Glue and ribbed heatshrink.

Peter
I am usless at metalwork, Oh and cannot spell either . failure

Offline Brass_Machine

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5504
  • Country: us
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2010, 11:29:56 PM »
Nice bit of kit John. I hope it serves you well.

Good deal to hear that Lester took care of you. Good karma on him.

I have been debating doing Kwackers version one day. Not sure my rotab is decent enough though/\.

Eric
Science is fun.

We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.

Offline kwackers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2010, 05:51:54 AM »
Both Kwackers and John S answered all my queries, and with that info, I decided to go the kit route, mainly because it would be easier for me, and because I didn't have room for the extras required in my shop, namely a laptop.
Just to clear something up in case it causes others confusion. My RT controller doesn't require a laptop, like the divisionmaster it's a stand alone unit.

With that said I can heartily recommend the division master to those who feel building from scratch is too much hassle - it's a route I myself may well have gone down if I'd seen it before I started building mine. (I never intended mine to be a kit, it was simply something I built for my own use and then released the design for anyone who may feel like building one)

IMO (and I'm sure Bogs and anyone else who has one will agree), a motorised rotab is a thing of great joy! Every workshop should have one.

If anyone is considering buying a division master then I can highly recommend Lester's kit. I've built a number of items that I've bought from him and his stuff is second to none, he also offers great support should you have any issues.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 06:35:19 AM by kwackers »

Offline Bogstandard

  • Bogs Group
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1107
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2010, 08:13:48 AM »
Sorry about that Steve, I should have worded it slightly differently.

John S's one required a laptop to give the programming and running screen.

Also, what Steve has said about every shop needing one.

When mine is eventually finished (I am just waiting on some oilite to be delivered to get it done), I will then have power feeds on all axis of the mill and the two mains on the lathe. I don't really need it on my surface grinder as the main table feed is a left handed operation. Just by having these, it has extended my machining life, even now, more than I could have dreamed of.

Maybe not what these units were originally designed for, but ideal for myself or anyone else in my situation.


John
If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

Location - Crewe, Cheshire

Skype - bandit175

Offline John Stevenson

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1643
  • Nottingham, England.
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2010, 08:47:31 AM »
The one I offered John did need a laptop or shop computer, it is not meant as a replacement for the Division master or the one Kwackers has put up but I had one spare USB unit for an application that was specially made for us that uses a PC that is part of a dedicated camera operation. The 8" rotary table is part of the camera positioning arrangement so not a small unit all told.

In some way it was better, simple little box about the size of a large box of matches but it did need an external driver and PC to run it.

Taking these three as being easy to use I'd choose them as Divisionmaster as it's a hand held and all complete, first, Kwackers second as again being hand held but no in built driver and the one I offered last.

I do have a Divisionmaster, in fact it's the first one made, serial no 00001, that drives a variety of tables and heads and I must admit I do use it a lot, probably every week at least once and I'd be dead in the water without it.

John S.
John Stevenson

Offline Bernd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3688
  • Country: us
  • 1915 C Cab
    • Kingstone Model Works
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 12:28:08 PM »
Bog's,

Are you going to have anymore pictures of the unit complete, meaning hooked up to your table and on the machine?

I'm interested in converting a rotary table I have for my Bridgeport. Also is there an something similar sold here in the US?

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds

Offline Bogstandard

  • Bogs Group
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1107
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 01:19:13 PM »
Bernd,

On the last bit of my first post I stated that the RT mods and the rest wil be following.

I am just waiting for some oilite bearing material to be delivered, as I would like to put some sort of thrust bearing onto the worm shaft. Unfortunately, normal thrust bearings just won't fit without major modification to my RT castings as they are too large on the OD.
Unless of course someone can source me a pair of needle roller thrust bearings with 14mm ID and 20mm OD, preferably around 2mm to 3mm thick.

BTW, I have been learning to program the unit while it is still sitting on my kitchen table. I had it cracked in about 30 minutes, and I'm a thicko when it comes to something like this. So you calculator whizz kids should have no trouble.


John

If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

Location - Crewe, Cheshire

Skype - bandit175

Offline Bernd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3688
  • Country: us
  • 1915 C Cab
    • Kingstone Model Works
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 02:53:35 PM »
Yup, remember now about reading about that. To many threads read to keep straight on what was said sometimes.  :scratch:

I did a bit of searching for a similar product here. Haven't found anything other than Sherline Products.

Looking forward to your next post John. Thanks.

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds

Offline Spurry

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
  • Country: england
  • Norfolk, UK
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2010, 06:41:46 PM »
John

Following the thread with interest. :bugeye: I have bought the Arc RT 130-030-00127, which is also sold as a motorised version. In that listing they state that needle roller thrust bearings are fitted. Is your table one of these or another type?

Looking forward to the rest of the RT mods.

Pete

Offline Sorekiwi

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2010, 07:49:49 PM »
Also is there an something similar sold here in the US?

Bernd, I havent seen anything similar available here, I looked a while ago, trying to find something a little cheaper but without success.

However I did buy my Schumatech DRO kit from Lester in the UK and it was a very easy transaction, and shipping was as fast as getting anything within the US.  The Schumatech kit was configured just like Bogs photo's, components taped to the list so even an idiot like myself would have trouble mixing stuff up.  Pretty much idiot-proof!

I wouldnt hesitate to buy from Lester again, and probably will buy a Divisionmaster at some point.  I have thought about fitting a stepper to my little table and running it off Mach 3 or even Turbocnc, but the self contained unit just seems like it would be much more painless.
Mike, expat Kiwi in NE Ohio, USA

Offline Bogstandard

  • Bogs Group
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1107
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2010, 01:40:42 AM »
Spurry,

Mine is actually a Vertex 6" jobbie, which has been cloned to death by everyone and his dog, so basically anything that I do to it should be able to be done to most RT's of that design, both larger and smaller.

John S has already informed me that the 8" Vertex can be fitted with a thrust bearing of standard dimensions, but this 6" and I suppose smaller ones can't, due to the way the castings are made, a standard thrust washer fouls on the casting inside the unit. The dimension I showed in my last post is the ideal, but unfortunately, needle thrust bearings of that internal size come with an OD of 25mm, much too large to fit (don't worry, it isn't theory, I have actually tried it).

John recommended to me that using an oilite washer should be almost as good as a thrust bearing, and that can be cut to any size so that it will fit. So I am following his superior knowledge on such things, and I am going to try it. I just hope my order doesn't get delayed by the Christmas post, otherwise I can't see any progress on this topic until January.

With regards to the US lads wanting to make one of these types of units.

I would suggest you root thru both Craynerds and Kwackers build posts for a bit of info. I am sure I followed up on something from there that gave me a link to a US site that made the boards and chips available for purchase in the US, so you could follow their lead and build one. Maybe one of those members has a lead. I'm sorry I can't be any further assistance on that one, I found the US site, but didn't think to save it, but it is definitely there.


Bogs
If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

Location - Crewe, Cheshire

Skype - bandit175

Offline Spurry

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
  • Country: england
  • Norfolk, UK
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2010, 05:42:05 AM »
John
Thanks for the useful info.  :thumbup:
Pete

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: Building the Division Master and modding my RT
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2010, 09:21:00 AM »
Just read your build post John, as always great pics, description and review of the product. Sorry to hear about your little mishap but glad you got sorted quickly. Thanks for showing us, looking forward to the mechanical bit!
Location: County Durham (North East England)