Are They Still Around?

[75Plus]

Anthony's post here:    http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4107.0  prompted this question. Rather than pull his thread off-topic I am posting here.

Back in the last century, the middle part specifically, there were portable machines that could rebore and sleeve a single cylinder while the engine was still in the vehicle. There was also a tool to regrind a single throw on a crankshaft also without removing the engine. There was a drive mechanism that turned the crank via the ring gear on the fly wheel and the grinder followed the crank like a connecting rod.

Does anyone else remember these and are they still around? Probably not since the newer construction methods would limit their access plus the modern engines are not as prone to failure as the older ones.     

Joe

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

Anthony's post here:    http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4107.0  prompted this question. Rather than pull his thread off-topic I am posting here.

Back in the last century, the middle part specifically, there were portable machines that could rebore and sleeve a single cylinder while the engine was still in the vehicle. There was also a tool to regrind a single throw on a crankshaft also without removing the engine. There was a drive mechanism that turned the crank via the ring gear on the fly wheel and the grinder followed the crank like a connecting rod.

Does anyone else remember these and are they still around? Probably not since the newer construction methods would limit their access plus the modern engines are not as prone to failure as the older ones.

Yes, I remember them.  The college I went to in the mid-1970's had them in the "automotive technology" lab.  I don't remember the brand name on them.  I pretty much ignored them as my main mentor in all things automotive (an NHRA track mechanic) thought them to be insufficient to do a complete job.  I bored a couple of cylinders with one as part of an "automotive technology" class and ended up with the same opinion (having the background of boring cylinders using a jig borer).

I think, but am not absolutely sure, that it was sleeved cylinders in aluminum blocks that did these products in.  I have been told by people who ought to know that reboring a sleeved cylinder without replacing the sleeve is a blown engine looking for a place to happen.  At that point, reboring while still in the vehicle lost its glitter.  My "automotive engineering" background since then has been limited to some transmission work and a fair amount of body assembly tooling, so my opinion and a buck will get you a cup of coffee.

[DMIOM]

not sure if they're used on conventional vehicles now, but that sort of in-situ kit is still in use from time on large engines. On large marine engines you can pull a liner, but if you run a bearing and score the crank, you can't just send it out for a regrind at the local workshop. 

Back in the 1990s a ship managed by my former employers had to be towed into Dutch Harbour (after, if I remember correctly, a catastrophic lube oil failure). She spent several months there - a gang was flown out from Europe and the grinding rig was definitely more than hand luggage!   and when they had finally ground and polished the pins again, they were so under-size new bearings had to be specially poured and flown out as well. My friend who went out as Superintendent said they had done well to save the ship, but he would have preferred it if they had chosen somewhere more accessible and with a better climate than the Aleutians in November/December!

[Jasonb]

Looks like you can still buy them

http://www.machineryandspares.com/garage/portable%20cylinder%20re%20boring%20machines.html

J

[Dean W]

I remember the machines you're talking about, and there are still companies in business who specialize in portable align boring.
They don't do small engines, like automotive types, though.  More like large pin journals on heavy equipment and other industrial
machinery bores. 
Some are small-ish, like the one in Jason's link, and some are huge, carried about on a truck with all the rigging.  They remind
me of a large flycutter or boring head on a gantry.  I've seen some in operation at rock plants where I was on the welding crew.

[DavidA]

The 'Van Norman' boring bar was very popular back in the '60s.

I used one a few times to bore out small Diesel engines. 

Never did it in situ though,  always with the block stripped on the bench.  Or how are you going to get all the borings out ?

Dave.

[Divided he ad]

Well the borer is very similar to what we used to use on the Landrover engines (occasionally a 6cyl jag) Worked a treat. AFAIK he's still using it  

We always did the job on the ground with the block fully stripped down though, as we were completely re-manufacturing the engines. (not sure about their claim to not need honing after the re-bore   )

Finished off with a huge industrial honing machine (similar to the one that company in the link does) to get perfect cross hatch finish and precision piston fit  


Never heard or seen of the crank grinding doofor though.... Quite intrigued  






Ralph.

[Raggle]

Here's some pics

http://www.in-situ.co.uk/crankshaft.html

There are videos if you like to tour Youtube of other manufacturers

Ray

[Divided he ad]

 Ray...   I was expecting something quite small for cars 



That's some piece of kit! 





Ralph.

[BillTodd]

Back in the last century, the middle part specifically, there were portable machines that could rebore and sleeve a single cylinder while the engine was still in the vehicle.

Got one here, a Buma Centromic from the 1950's 

[MrFluffy]

Does anyone else remember these and are they still around? Probably not since the newer construction methods would limit their access plus the modern engines are not as prone to failure as the older ones.     

Joe

I would guess its too much risk/not enough profit what really kills it for car garages. If you rebore the old engine and fit oversize pistons (making assumptions that the liners are thick enough to take it, aren't nikisil coated etc) and the customer takes it away and doesn't run it back in correctly, your still going to get lumped with the blame for it going wrong when it starts to smoke or seizes during running-in. People just expect to turn a key and have their car work immediately once its been fixed, like their washing machine or fridge does.
Compare that to the garage just bolting in a short engine. They only have to answer for the connecting it up bit, any problems inside go back to the short engine suppliers who offer a guarentee for their engine. And it will come bedded in from the factory so no having to explain to a end user about how to run a engine back in. Much less risk.
And when you've costed up the hourly labor to strip a engine, prepare and post fettle it, pay someone who knows how to setup the bar and rebore it in situ and add in the costs of oversize pistons and gaskets etc. I'd wager theres more pure profit to bolting in a replacement short engine.

If you go into a motorcycle shop clutching a scored cylinder or with a poorly bike, odds on they have a local specialist who has a van norman which the above indian bar seems to be a copy of, who does the cylinders for all the shops in that area. There are still quality companies which supply this little industry if their pockets are deep enough. Kwikway seems to be the big name of late.
http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDisplay.cfm?lookup=KWK055-0001-15&source=froogle&kw=KWK055-0001-15

Loved that site for that company doing the marine regrind stuff. Everyone shirtless and in red boiler suits in the promo shots. Definitely NOT faked for the website by marketing types

[Dean W]

They did do them with the engine still in the car, but that was long ago.  I have a pic here somewhere that shows a Model A or some such with the hood off, head off the engine, and the borer bolted to the top of the block.  Don't know what they did about the swarf or honing left-overs.  Pop the pan off and flush it, I suppose.  Things were different in the old days.
Dad had a Model T when he was a boy.  He told me if the rods started knocking, they would line the rod big end with leather strap until they could afford new babbit.  Lots of people had no money.  The did what they could.

[75Plus]

Dean,  I remember a friend having one cylinder in a 1941 Ford V8 bored and sleeved while the car sat in his back yard. This was in 1951. The swarf was not a problem as the pan was already off in order to remove the piston and rod, the piston was broken which caused the damage.

The crankshaft repair was done to my 1946 Plymouth in 1953. I was driving from Tennessee to Calif and burned a rod about 30 miles west of Salt lake. I bought some time on a service station drive on grease rack and pulled the head and dropped the pan. The local automotive machine shop sent a man out with the crankshaft grinder and in less than an hour I was putting everything back together.

Joe

[crankshafter]

Hi all.
Look here for the real BIG engines:
 http://www.goltens-insitu.com/storage/cases/Wartsila%20RT-Flex%2050%20Crankshaft%20Repair%20-%20China.pdf


CS

[Dean W]

The crankshaft repair was done to my 1946 Plymouth in 1953. I was driving from Tennessee to Calif and burned a rod about 30 miles west of Salt lake. I bought some time on a service station drive on grease rack and pulled the head and dropped the pan. The local automotive machine shop sent a man out with the crankshaft grinder and in less than an hour I was putting everything back together.
Joe

Pretty neat how things used to get done, Joe!

[bcall2043]

Back in the 60's I owned an engine boring machine for a while that was made by Kwik-way. I saw crank refinishing tools performing in-car repairs but did not note the machine makers. Below is a link to the Kwik-way company history.

http://www.kwik-way.com/company/company_history.htm

Regards, Benny
In middle Tennessee, USA

[75Plus]

Here is the link to a Winona in the block grinder. Sunnen also made them.

http://www.rtsalesinc.com/web_quotes_english/Crankshaft_Camshaft_Equipment/Winona_In-The-Blok_Portable_Crankshaft_Grinder_STOCK_0090.htm

Joe

[Raggle]

Ralph said

Ray...   I was expecting something quite small for cars

Me and my festive season malevolence.

My dad had a rebore at home on the 1931(?) Vauxhall 23hp he used for towing the home-built caravan. This was in 1949 so I was 7 yrs old and don't remember much more than seeing the man arrive. I suppose this was a Van Norman boring bar.

A bit off topic, but not much  -  a neighbour once asked, "can you get a piston out of a Morris Minor engine with the head still on?"

"No", we said, "wont pass the crank".

"You can if you crunch it up with a mole wrench" Then he went on to relate the story of two of his mates broken down with a thrown conrod and pulled into the roadside. Off came the sump (pan for the US) and then the mole. After getting rod and piston bits out of the way they replaced the big end shells and tied them on with wire to keep any oil pressure in. Up top they removed pushrods from the now dead cylinder and drove 70 miles home in the rain. The van ran for another 3 months in this state.

Ray

[Divided he ad]

No worries Ray, was interesting to see all the same 


    That sounds like the kind of stuff my uncle would do 




Ralph.