Author Topic: Grades of brass  (Read 19430 times)

Offline 1hand

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Grades of brass
« on: January 13, 2011, 02:58:52 PM »
Hello,

I stopped by my local scrap yard to see if they had any scrap brass, and they do. A barrel of what they call yellow brass, and a barrel of what they call red brass.

I'm figuring the yellow is mostly 360, mostly pipe and fittings,but what about this redish colored brass. Is it any good for machining? there is 4 or so 6" disks on top thats begging to become a flywheel. They said I can come back tomorow and dig through them barrels if I want.

Matt

Offline Powder Keg

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2011, 08:52:22 PM »
There are many grades of Brass'. The red stuff is most likely bronze. Mostly copper and Tin. That's why it's so expensive. It usually machines nice. But if you get a piece of aluminum bronze, The machining will take you longer for sure. When drilling make sure that you grind your drill bit right or it will grab. I use a 1" paint/chip brush with natural bristles and hold over my tool to keep those little chips from getting everywhere. Good luck!!!
Wesley P
A Gismo ??? If it has a flywheel or spins and is made with small parts. I'll take one! If it makes noise, moves, or requires frequent oiling and dusting it's a better deal yet. It's especially right if its shiny and bright; but if it's dirty and dull it wont mater at all...

Offline 1hand

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2011, 09:18:45 PM »
Thanks, powder keg.

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2011, 01:58:38 AM »
Matt,

Most of what you call yellow brass will machine up just fine using normal brass settings.

When you come to bronzes, it is like walking thru a minefield. Each type normally has a specific way of machining, some like fast and furious, others slow and steady, get the wrong method and you can be in deep s**t.

As PK mentions above, Ali bronze (of which there are many different mixtures) can easily catch you out. I tend to keep it on the slow and steady, otherwise it is liable to just grab your tool and form a skin so hard you just can't get thru it. I bought hundreds of feet of ali bronze 1/2" hex from a scrappies a few years ago, and I use it all the time, but only because, thru trial and error, I found out how to machine the stuff correctly.

So really, purchasing 'yellow' brass is fairly safe, but the bronzes can be a bit dicey, unless you know exactly what you are getting.


John
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Offline Dean W

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2011, 09:11:45 PM »
I'm figuring the yellow is mostly 360, mostly pipe and fittings,but what about this redish colored brass.

Matt, most brass pipe and fittings are a 2xx series.  Generally, I've found it to machine well, but not like 360.  
360 series is mainly made in solid shapes.  Rounds, square, flat bar, etc.  
Thin wall tube and thin sheet is usually of cartridge brass, and not so good for machining.
Pipe seems to vary some, and I've seen it in a shade of color that looks just like the good 360 stuff, and in a reddish
hue.  Either machine well enough, in my experience.  

In the picture you see a piece of brass pipe, which shows the reddish color where it's been exposed, but the freshly
threaded ends are bright yellow/gold.
The piece to the right of it is 360 brass.
The bits of the engine are cast bronze.  There are lots of bronze products, like Bogs says.
This is just for a color comparison to maybe help you pick the good stuff.  I hope the colors show okay for you.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 09:31:23 PM by Dean W »
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Offline Powder Keg

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2011, 10:17:20 PM »
One thing that a lot of people don't realize is that aluminum bronze is also slightly magnetic due to the about 5% iron in the mix. I've never tried it, but a magnet should be attracted to it.
Wesley P
A Gismo ??? If it has a flywheel or spins and is made with small parts. I'll take one! If it makes noise, moves, or requires frequent oiling and dusting it's a better deal yet. It's especially right if its shiny and bright; but if it's dirty and dull it wont mater at all...

Offline bry1975

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2011, 02:23:42 AM »
If you have the materials grade you can probably look it up below, matweb is a very useful site:-

http://www.matweb.com/

Also be careful with copper alloys as manganese and lead are often added and if it's brass
you're working with you'll notice the Zinc as it's an aphrodisiac. :thumbup:



Bry
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 02:27:37 AM by bry1975 »

Offline Dean W

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2011, 03:57:04 AM »
if it's brass you're working with you'll notice the Zinc as it's an aphrodisiac.
It's an aphrodisiac?  I think if that were true I'd have been a raging sex fiend by now.  I've turned huge amounts of brass into chips
and never felt the slightest arousal.   :scratch:
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 03:59:01 AM by Dean W »
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2011, 05:39:13 AM »
I have noticed a great deal by following both UK and US based websites.

In the US, everyone has a liking for quoting numbers for metals, and most times I have no idea what they are on about, and I don't want to know. I don't know if it is a one upmanship thing, showing that you can remember numbers.

In the UK, except for a few generally known ones, like EN1a (free cutting mild steel) we tend to call it as it is, that way no one gets confused.

Plus of course, unless you are in industry requiring specialist materials (with their relevent numbers), we at home don't need to know all this exact garbage stuff, as we normally make bits of what we can get hold of.

So it is normally brass, bronze, silver steel, stainless or just steel. It all cuts, and the enjoyment we get out of cutting a piece of something we have picked up, easy or hard, is all part of the enjoyment.

When I make say a crank for an engine, I don't go searching about looking for specialist materials, mine comes out of my junk box, whatever looks and feels right, and I can guarantee the crank won't wear out or break in my lifetime, and most probably not in whoever takes it over.

So don't go overboard finding out what it is exactly, use it as what you think it will do.


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Offline bry1975

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2011, 10:10:56 AM »
Hi Dean,

It's the fine dust from finishing that would allow absorption into the blood stream.

Offline ieezitin

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2011, 11:09:15 AM »
John.

As an expatriate from the United Kingdom Circa 1990 I think I can give you the reason for us over here to quote the metal numbers, every time you want to buy a product they give you so much choice that if you did not know the Numbered steel you wanted you would walk out with nothing, it the same when ordering a cheese burger, do you want pickles, relish, onions, tomato, and so on. It never ends here!.

Itís all about choice which in turn has become there culture.

For me I am still the simple nit wit I was when I left the fare shores of Blighty, I cope the copious choices by telling my wife to order for me that way they donít have to listen to my accent and how I say things and not hearing what I said.

Hope this clears it up.    Anthony.
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Offline DavidA

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2011, 11:54:55 AM »

...Also be careful with copper alloys as manganese and lead are often added ...

And be aware that Beryllium may be there.  And that stuff is VERY nasty.

Dave.

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2011, 12:51:25 PM »
In the US, everyone has a liking for quoting numbers for metals, and most times I have no idea what they are on about, and I don't want to know. I don't know if it is a one upmanship thing, showing that you can remember numbers.
Bogs,

The U.S. had the first alloy really detailed numbering system.  There was an attempt in the 1970's and early 1980's to make an international universal alloy numbering system (the UNS).  It failed, through you would not know that from reading the American engineering "press."  If we (Americans) go into a hardware store to purchase steel, we will be paying (about) $8/lb for low carbon merchant stock.  Most of us like to avoid that.  When we go to a steel yard and buy "drops," they are still identified by (AISI) alloy number.  Thus, we get into the habit of referring to our material in this manner.

I grant you that most HSM types need only know if the material they have is generally of this or that type.  The lore about distinguishing carbon content, alloying elements, and the like (talking about steel here) is interesting and worthwhile to know.  Terms such as chrome-moly or nickel-moly have fallen out of usage on this side of the pond.  It is somewhat problematic from my side of the fence in that few American engineers understand why adding vanadium to a steel alloy might be a good thing -- or when it is not.  However, it is the nature of the American metals marketplace that virtually requires that we know the alloy number we want.

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2011, 01:39:49 PM »
Lew,

Don't get me wrong, we also use a very cumbersome number and lettering system for our metals, but it is only usually used in the manufacturing environment where critical specifications are required. I used to have to use numbers and codes for everything I did when I was in work.

In the home shop, I wouldn't go around to Stews shop and ask him for a bit of blah de blah steel, it would just be, gotta bit of steel about such and such a size, or Stew would come around and say, gotta bit of brass (or whatever) about this big.

It would be just the same if I visited a local production shop, I would just ask for a piece of low or high carbon steel, nothing specific, because what I do in my shop, almost anything would do.

I think it is a state of mind, we like the free and easy way, the US lads seem to want to know when you last went to the toilet, and what thickness tissue did you use, and if possible, what was the spread rate.

No offence intended at all, but it seems to me that we have a more laid back attitude when it comes to selecting our materials for use in the home shop.

If it works, use it, if it doesn't work, then don't use it. You soon learn what can be done with what. Try silver soldering (you call it silver braze) a bit of ali bronze, you will find it is almost impossible. But mix a bit of salt in with your flux and you will find you can, after a fashion. A lump of unknown sheet from the side of an old washing machine, once bent up and painted will do just as well as a very expensive sheet with a fancy number or code system of the same gauge.

I could, but very rarely use specific material codes in my postings, purely because I find it confuses people. Not everyone has the same knowledge base as true engineers, but most know their basic materials.

Now just tell him to use say any old bit of aluminium, as long as he can machine it, you will have a very happy chappie. Start pushing numbers at him, and he will turn off and go elsewhere.

Bogs
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Offline DavidA

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2011, 01:51:40 PM »
Bogs,

...Try silver soldering (you call it silver braze) a bit of ali bronze, you will find it is almost impossible....


That made me smile.  A few month ago I had a bit of 'copper alloy' that I had turned up and drilled.  I needed a length of copper pipe brazing into it,  and as it was easier to get it done at work that to set up my own gear,  I dropped it off with out copper jig making chap.
Later the brought it to me saying "Rotten bit of brass you got there.  had one hell of a job brazing it."

That's when I remembered it was ally bronze.  Thought it best not to tell him at this stage.

Dave :doh:

Offline bry1975

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2011, 04:24:31 PM »
"That's when I remembered it was ally bronze.  Thought it best not to tell him at this stage."


LOL kinda like giving the chap a lump of 440c stainless steel instead of a nice and very weldable low carbon steel.

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2011, 03:32:31 AM »
Just to show I am not biased and sometimes do take an interest in specific steels, here is a good place to get all your specs for UK steels. There are even conversion charts to allow you to find the materials sometimes discussed on hobby sites where people are quoting numbers and/or letters who reside in other parts of the world.

http://www.westyorkssteel.com/products.html


But I personally still like to think things can and should be kept much simpler in what we get up to.


Bogs
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Offline bry1975

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2011, 06:16:05 AM »
Thanks for the link bogs.

It's like with tool steels so many different types and yet most of the time anything will do.

They use to reckon with nylon their's a grade to fullfil every need matweb lists 8,947 nylons.

Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2011, 09:29:08 AM »
To add some numbers  :dremel: In the alloys of Brass the two main ones are Alpha Brasses, Beta Brasses which are then divided into the following main subs with others
Alpha Brasses
65%Cu 35%Zn which is yellow brass
260/Cartridge Brass is 70%Cu 30%Zn
85%Cu 15%Zn Red Brass
88%Cu 12%Zn  226/Nu-Gold (called Pinchbeck metal in Victorian times)
90%Cu 20%Zn  220/Red Brass
95%Cu 5%Zn  Gilding Metal

The second major set is the Beta Brasses, more zinc in the alloy
60% Cu 40% Zn Muntz Brass
60%Cu .75%Sn(tin) 39.25%Zn  Naval Brass also called Roman Brass
60%Cu  37-39.5%Zn .5-3% Pb(lead)
55%Cu 45%Zn bath Brass

The Bronzes are
80%Cu 20%Sn(tin) Bell casting Bronze
90%Cu 10%Sn Phosphor Bronze (D) 95%Cu 5%Sn Phosphor Bronze (A) they add up to 0.35% phosphorus is added.
 95%Cu 5% Mn (manganese) Manganese Bronze
 60%Cu 1%Sn 33%Zn 6%PB Leaded Bronze

There are many more alloys and task/job specific ones, along with the never ending discussion of which secret alloy is truly gives the best sounding ring from large bells.

The Nu-gold is a more golden color alloy that is a favorite in the jewelry and art field for its warmer golden hue.
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Offline Ned Ludd

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2011, 10:01:33 AM »
Hi Guys,
Another good site for metal information is;
http://www.actonbrightsteel.co.uk/
Take a look at the technical guide, I like their listing because they still list "proper" numbers (EN) which are so much easier to remember than apparently random new numbers. They also list common uses for the particular steel. I find that the majority of real or proper engineers still use the EN numbering system, perhaps they cant remember the new system either.

For those who might be interested, the "EN" stands for Emergency Number. The system was introduced during WW2 to force all the various steel makers in Great Britain into making steels to a common formula and grade, for strategic and supply reasons.

Most of us on this forum are only interested in a few different steels, plain ordinary mild steel EN1 in either bright or black or as I believe our US cousins call them CRS or HRS. We also need something that is hardenable something like EN8, a "40" carbon steel, which can be hardened much like "silver steel/drill rod" but much cheaper. There is of course Silver steel, but I think quite a few people use it because it is an easily available ground-to-size steel rather than its ability to be hardened, save for tool makers of course.

Sometimes we may want something a little more exotic like EN16 a manganese/molybdenum, EN19 a chrome/moly or EN24 a nickel/chrome/moly steel for that special critical component, but they are usually more for when friends say can you make a new Girder fork spindle for my pre-war racing motorbike than for a Stuart steam engine.

It might be of interest to quote from a book "the motor cyclist's workshop" where it states "The notes that follow are compiled from the information given by a motor cycle designer of world fame. The subject is simpler than might be expected. Except for the valves, he would happily use only three steels in a standard (not racing) motor cycle- a good quality mild steel, a carbon steel and a commercial nickel-alloy." The book does go on to list the type of steels used for various components but I am not going to type the whole chapter!!

Very few of us, if any, use our metals to their extreme limits, it is not like we are making full scale F1 engines where every single gram weight is important. As Bogs says, when we want to make something we go to our stock room (scrap pile)and pick up something of the right size that has the properties we want. Mild steel for strength, Brass for corrosion (?) resistance, Bronze for corrosion resistance and bearing properties, Aluminium for lightness and ease of machining, and Stainless steel for strength, corrosion resistance, the ability to be polished to save the need for plating and ease of machining. Let us not forget cast iron, much favoured for, unsurprisingly, castings and bearing surfaces.
If you notice a slight pro Stainless bias, you are right. I hate things that I have spent ages making only for them to go rusty in a few hours in our "multi-purpose" UK climate.
Ned
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Offline ieezitin

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2011, 11:39:35 AM »
Ned.

Great link.
That was an interesting read, I never knew about the EN marking and the reasoning.

I like working with stainless too but my stock room (local scrap yard ) often supplies me with WTS grade stainless. I swear you could split the atom next to it and it would still be in one piece.

Anthony.
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Offline DavidA

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2011, 11:46:20 AM »
Harold Hall seems to swear by 230M07 for his steel projects.

Dave
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 08:19:32 AM by DavidA »

Offline Ned Ludd

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2011, 07:36:49 PM »
Anthony,
Thank you kind Sir, we aim to please.
Ned
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Offline AdeV

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2011, 11:44:57 AM »
Harold Hall seems to swear by 230M07 for his steel projects.

Is that like when you type 55378008 into a calculator & turn it upside down?
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Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2011, 12:07:49 PM »
Bogs,

Quote
Don't get me wrong, we also use a very cumbersome number and lettering system for our metals, but it is only usually used in the manufacturing environment where critical specifications are required. I used to have to use numbers and codes for everything I did when I was in work.
....
No offence intended at all, but it seems to me that we have a more laid back attitude when it comes to selecting our materials for use in the home shop.

We are in violent agreement.  The difference is that, on this side of the pond, most metal comes from commercial yards that sell it unless you are in one of a very few places that have "retail" salvage yards (usually found just outside active military repair depots).  If we, on this side of the pond, walk into a steel yard and ask for low carbon steel, the yard man will look at us strangely.  However, if we walk in and ask for "something in the C1015-C1022 range," we will get what we want for 1/10th the price we would pay in a "hardware store."  It quickly becomes habit.

On the other hand, I make my living as a design & development mechanical engineer.  Precision in specification is a legal requirement this realm.  I tend to prefix my statements about such things as being from "my side of the universe."  I don't know if you have run into the type, be most American companies place MBA-types in positions where they are Program Managers (PM's).  It gets to be stupid in extremis when trying to explain the them that any one of several specific grades of material are fine for their application and that they should purchase whatever is less expensive when they go to order it!  They want to be told, "this and only this will work."  This explains a lot when you look at the American "industrial trajectory" of the past few decades.

I do not (and never have) "suggested" that HSM-types need this level of detail.  The main area where I come unglued is when I see blanket statements (such as the one a few months ago) about aluminum being totally equivalent to steel.  Yes, structural grades of aluminum have very similar yield and ultimate tensile strengths when compared to low carbon structural steels, but they have rather different properties in shear, modulus, thermal, and wear.  It may not be important in the instance under discussion, but it lays the groundwork for someone else to gain a misunderstanding that could come back and bite them.

Otherwise, it is all about increasing knowledge and skills.

Offline DavidA

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2011, 03:31:06 PM »
Ade,

Afraid not.
 Just Harold keeping abreast of the name game.

Dave. :D

P.S.  en1a, also known as 230m07. a low carbon mild steel, free cutting, suitable for machining using both automatic and cnc machines.

Offline 1hand

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2011, 05:23:37 PM »
Thanks guys!

I took a chance on my first scrappy bought unknown!


Offline bry1975

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2011, 05:26:36 PM »
Very true Steel and Aluminium or Aluminum thermal properties are very different


Aluminium/Aluminum thermal conductivity 75-235 W m−1 K−1 and  thermal conductivity for steel has values in the range 10-55 W m−1 K.


Stainless steel generally conducts 1/3 that of plain steel.


Lew so are you a fan of Industrial press literature like machinerys handbook etc etc?


Bry
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 05:29:10 PM by bry1975 »

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2011, 12:14:14 PM »
Lew so are you a fan of Industrial press literature like machinerys handbook etc etc?

It's not so much that I am a "fan" of Industrial Press as it is that I am a huge fan of Franklin Jones.  I had the great experience of sitting between Frank Jones and Leroy Grumman at an ASME dinner in New York City many years ago.  Frank signed my third edition of Machinery's Handbook.  I believe that I have a copy of every book he ever authored -- and a fair collection of the articles he wrote.

Industrial press has changed since Frank Jones died.  His (Frank's) rule was that the basic edition of Machinery's Handbook was to sell for no more than four hours of apprentice's wages.  A quick look at the cost today will tell you how far away from that ideal things have gotten.  My first copy cost me 5.5 hours of wages in 1967 -- but I also bought the onionskin paper, thumb-tabbed, leather bound version.  It was just starting to wear in very nicely in 1974 when it fell into a tracer mill's hydraulic sump.

My "design library" runs to (about) 700 feet of bookshelf.  I have a solid 4 feet dedicated to machining-specific texts.  I have many of the WWII vintage "How to Run..." texts for lathes, milling machines, jig borers, and various types of grinders.  I also have everything I could track down written by: Den Hertog, Carlo Castigliano, Lionel Marks, and Joseph Shigley -- as well as hundreds of other less-well-known authors on the subjects of mechanics, engineering, and technology.  Yeah, I am an information junkie.

Offline bry1975

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2011, 02:11:51 PM »
Very impressive certainly like your technical info.

Ebay must make a small fortune with all them old machinerys handbooks plus all the others.

Bry

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2011, 12:34:04 PM »
Bry,  -- Going WAY off topic --  There was an Isaac Asimov story about an engineer who leapt from a burning building with his Handbook of Robotics and only wearing his underpants.  Had the timing been "tighter," he would have foregone his underpants.

I have tried to start lists based on this theory several times over the years.  You are in a burning building.  You have the choice of pants (under or otherwise) or grabbing a book before you leap out the window.  What book do you grab?

Offline Ned Ludd

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2011, 07:29:18 PM »
Hi Guys,
Stuff the books, I would look for an umbrella, and a soft landing. You can always buy new books. :lol:
Ned
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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2011, 02:20:30 PM »
Bogs,

...Try silver soldering (you call it silver braze) a bit of ali bronze, you will find it is almost impossible....


That made me smile.  A few month ago I had a bit of 'copper alloy' that I had turned up and drilled.  I needed a length of copper pipe brazing into it,  and as it was easier to get it done at work that to set up my own gear,  I dropped it off with out copper jig making chap.
Later the brought it to me saying "Rotten bit of brass you got there.  had one hell of a job brazing it."

That's when I remembered it was ally bronze.  Thought it best not to tell him at this stage.

Dave :doh:


It can be silver soldered with ease just add some table salt to your flux mix and all will be OK
http://www.cupalloys.co.uk/fluxes-c59.html

see hint 3

MrFluffy

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2011, 04:24:41 AM »
I have a lump of mystery metal Im fine with calling it ally, steel, brass etc. However occasionally I knock up fork yokes and wheel spindles and other high stress bits of motorbike, so I look up the properties then seek out and buy a specific grade of alloy or en graded steel for these bits probably for my own peace of mind as Im likely to be doing xyz mph on the thing later on, so there its really useful to have developed a feel for what grade will be right for that job.
I wouldn't dream of trying to get graded stuff from the scrappy, or worry about not taking if it wasnt, Im too busy filling my bucket excitedly at my find and mystery metal is just fine in most applications, although I have destroyed a few cutters on mystery grades of stainless in the past :D

Offline Engraver

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2011, 06:29:38 PM »
My first post, so I hope everything is in the right place! :wave:

http://www.columbiametals.co.uk/products/list.php?category=3

A useful site for the comparison of and the make up of all sorts of metals.
There is a section on brass.

They supply the product, but I am not sure in what quantities!

I have off cuts of sheet brass and stainless steel, and anodised aluminium.

CZ120 in 3mm and 1.5mm as well as nominal 1.0mm (usually 0.9mm!) and recently started using 0.7mm

I am an engraver - and I hate throwing away bits that somebody else could use!

Offline SPiN Racing

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Re: Grades of brass
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2011, 10:46:13 PM »
Ya know.... on the subject of all the metal types, and or whats what. Yep. I do know some of the numbers of metal I need to know when ordering something specific.

BUT.

Even though I am on this side of the pond, I found that getting to know the manager of Alro metals near me, as well as one of his key guys.. names Guy actually.. really helps. I say.. heya.. they say HEYYY what you making now?? I say I need a chunk of metal about this big by that big.. and some sort of brass bronze thing. What do you have in drops??
THey dig around and show me things.. ask what Im gonna do to it.. and then produce something for me. If they dont have it.. they sell me the brand new stuff at a good rate. And they have a ultra happy return customer. And they know it. :D

Make friends with the guy who sells the metal, and they will take care of you, if they know you are a artisan/craftsman/fabricator.. not just some big company buying a specific quantity of material to sell to someone else.

Doesnt hurt to know the numbers.. but its much nicer to get along well with the supplier. I need X metal for these reasons. Ohh we dont have X but try Y.. its a better version, or different version.


Scott
SPiN Racing