Author Topic: Webster IC Engine build log.  (Read 144404 times)

Offline spuddevans

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #225 on: May 05, 2011, 11:35:27 AM »
I have no words of advice to offer, just to say that I'm sure that you'll get it running before too long. Stick with it, eliminating one thing at a time, and soon enough you will hear the magic come alive.


Great job  :thumbup: :thumbup:


Tim
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #226 on: May 05, 2011, 02:13:47 PM »
In the short term you can just stick a drill straight onto the shaft until you start hearing pops.  It wont run because the drill will keep it from spinning up, but it will pop and you can adjust the fuel mixture.  Try it as lean as you can and work your way to rich (fully open then to closed on the mixture nut)

You can also just put your finger over the hole every few seconds to enrich the mixture until it starts popping.  You will know it when you hear it...

Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline raynerd

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #227 on: May 06, 2011, 04:07:29 AM »
Hi Chaps

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

I spent a while last night playing with it and first pull got a good few pops from it. Then nothing.

Suction is fantastic - there is compression on the compression stroke and that force on the piston is removed in the exhaust stroke (i.e the valves are working good). I`m confident everything about the cylinder and valve was fine.

I`d spent a long time playing with the timing because I concluded this must be the issue. Fiddled with it, I gave it a kick start and it popped again. Tried it again and nothing.


The crank was the first part that I`ve ever silver soldered. In retrospect I didn`t get it hot enough but it had joined so I had left it. I was only 5 minutes away from giving up again for the evening that I realised the crank shaft was spinning in the two piece section I`d made! This was totally messing up all the timing. Clearly with the little silver solder in there it was a friction fit and so sometimes (especially slowly by hand) it was looking to turn but actually it was spinning and throwing out all the timings!

I`ve no silver solder so I`ve just ordered some on next day delivery. I`ll strip it down tonight again ready for soldering over weekend. I`m more confident now anyway! The issue comes when it doesn`t work tomorrow after re-soldering  :doh:  :lol:     I`m not giving up on this engine, I know compression is good, it is sparking, the flywheel is now good and heavy ... I`ve said in the last few posts that it must be timing and so my fingers are crossed. It also explains why I have the occasional pop. After being shown how to silver solder the two piece valves I`m confident I can get a good join on the crank shaft and that`ll be another step closer to a running engine.

Chris
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 04:10:27 AM by craynerd »

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #228 on: May 06, 2011, 07:28:29 AM »
You'll get their Chris.

Now that you've been shown how to silver solder you'll now how to get it correct.

Good luck:--  put-put-put-put. thats the sound you will soon hear.  :D

Stew
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #229 on: May 06, 2011, 10:57:31 AM »
Hi Chris, usually, the most frustrating part is finding the problem, and then it's just a matter of getting it right, and things look up.  I'm sure you'll be enjoying the putt putt very soon.  I'm looking forward to the video of it running it's little heart out. :beer: Cheers,  Jack

Offline raynerd

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #230 on: May 06, 2011, 12:55:38 PM »
I keep dreaming of that noise  :dremel: thanks for your replies stew and mad jack

My thrust bearing arrived today. I admit I've never seen one before. There seems to be no way of clamping it to the shaft so I did some googling. Am I right in thinking that it isn't clamped to the shaft but actually tightens on the shaft when the locking mechanism kicks in. This would then link to your comment, Doug, of the shaft needing to be hardened. I purchased my one way bearing from a model shop and it has no dimensions on it. I'll experiment tonight but can anyone tell me, do I just turn the shaft diameter so the bearing just slides on? If this is the case I can imagine tolerances would be high or the bearing will slip?



Offline dbvandy

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #231 on: May 06, 2011, 08:03:32 PM »
I keep dreaming of that noise  :dremel: thanks for your replies stew and mad jack

My thrust bearing arrived today. I admit I've never seen one before. There seems to be no way of clamping it to the shaft so I did some googling. Am I right in thinking that it isn't clamped to the shaft but actually tightens on the shaft when the locking mechanism kicks in. This would then link to your comment, Doug, of the shaft needing to be hardened. I purchased my one way bearing from a model shop and it has no dimensions on it. I'll experiment tonight but can anyone tell me, do I just turn the shaft diameter so the bearing just slides on? If this is the case I can imagine tolerances would be high or the bearing will slip?


Most likely it is going to be 6mm and have a 12mm nut on it.  You can use a socket in you drill to drive it.  I cut a little slot in the shaft and put an e clip on it to hold the bearing on.   You are correct... the tolerances have to be dead on or it won't grab. 

Can you do the same thing with the crank shaft that you did with the flywheel and drill and tap a hole between the shaft and the counter balance journal?

OR drill a hole and pin it?

Keep it up!

Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline raynerd

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #232 on: May 07, 2011, 02:58:48 AM »
Doug, it was just as you said. I turned a little test bar end down to 6mm and put the little bearing on. What an clever little gadget - I`d like to know how it works. Totally lets it free wheel in one direction but seems to clamp down on the bar and lock it in the other direction!!!

I think some things happen for a reason. With the crank shaft come away from the actual crank end, it was an ideal opportunity to turn about 10mm of the overhang I had purposely put on the crank for the reason, down to 6mm dia. I`ve also moved the sensor position to the other side as for some silly reason I`d put the sensor at the end of the crank shaft, now I`ve moved it to nearer the outer frame which looks better and is out of the way. Another silly thing I`d done was to have the magnet of the sensor on the same pull chord V pully. This meant that when pull starting it, I noticed I was actually moving the magnet a little and would have been throwing the timing out. So actually, I think this little modification has improved the design!

7:55am, I`m sat watching Peppa Pig with my daughter waiting for the postman to arrive with Silver Solder - then it`ll be "mummys" turn to get out of bed while I escape with a blow torch!  :dremel: :dremel:

Offline Bluechip

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #233 on: May 07, 2011, 03:10:55 AM »
Chris


One-way bearing ??? They're probably roller clutches. Quite common when I worked on printers etc.

ARC do 'em, amongst others.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Bearings/Needle-Roller-Clutches

Dave BC
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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #234 on: May 07, 2011, 03:58:05 AM »
I use the ARC ones instead of ratchets on my lubricators ( loco ) as they are scale wakefield ones they are tiny ( not as small as the minnie one Stew ) use two one on the body and one in the arm


one point the have a plastic of some kind to support the rollers and they can melt if abused



Stuart

Offline metalmad

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #235 on: May 07, 2011, 06:17:18 AM »
Hi Craynerd
good luck with the silver solder
its on my to do list :)
Pete
A little bit every day, sometimes the same little bit!

Offline raynerd

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #236 on: May 07, 2011, 08:30:09 AM »
Silver solder arrived, got a rollocking of the wife for soldering on the cooker top. But the job went very well!

Another hour spent on it, a good few pops but never at all feeling like it's going to go.  :( soon to be free to a good home  :palm:

Offline dbvandy

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #237 on: May 07, 2011, 09:09:37 AM »
Silver solder arrived, got a rollocking of the wife for soldering on the cooker top. But the job went very well!

Another hour spent on it, a good few pops but never at all feeling like it's going to go.  :( soon to be free to a good home  :palm:


Get it close:
exhaust opening 20 degrees before bottom dead center
timing firing at the top of the compression stroke
vapor carb wide open

close the hole in the carb slowly wile spinning it

then small adjustments

This is the home stretch!

Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #238 on: May 07, 2011, 11:21:15 AM »
Hi Chris,  remember, fuel, air, compression, and ignition, and fire.  Most modern engines idle with firing between five and ten degree before top dead center.  I you have all those things, it will run, the vapor carb means you'll have good fuel air mixture, you know you've got compression, and the only question is when it's firing.  I don't know about all hall effect pickups, but some are sensitive to a particular pole, and if you use the other, they fire on the magnet leaving the scene, not entering, and can have your timing off by the width of the magnet.  If you're not sure, take a disc of cardboard or a degree wheel if you have one, and rotate the engine until the plug fires, noting where it is by having a pointer near the edge of the disc or degree wheel, and figure out when you're firing.  If you're using a piece of cardboard, mark where the firing happens, and mark TDC, and then put the cardboard on your rotary table or something like it and figure out the degrees.  This will easily show up if you have pole sensitive pickup, if it's firing way late, it's probably firing on the magnet leaving and can easily cause the popping without getting it to run.  Each engine has its own personal preferences too, so they can want things a bit more advanced or retarded than standard, or be a bit easy to flood and the like.  Make sure you've got a wet plug when you've been at it a bit, or it's not getting fuel.  I used to squirt a smidge of lighter fluid in the plug hole of engines that didn't want to start, just to make sure they were getting fuel, and the same can be done with starting fluid.  Sometimes an engine just needs a demonstration, 'cause it doesn't know what it's supposed to do, and getting it to fire on lighter fluid will give it the idea, and get it going, and understanding what's demanded of it.  Watch your con rod as you rotate the engine through, you'll see the last eight or ten degrees before top dead center doesn't move the piston much at all, nor does the first eight or ten degrees, so advance on the cam is essential, because it needs to start lifting while the piston's not doing much of anything, so that part of the rotation isn't wasted, and the cam action being in the middle part, where all the work's being done.  Your valve should be fully lifted by five or ten degrees after BDC, and bear in mind, oil on the intake valve face or seat can be enough to keep the valve from lifting off at low speed, and keep fuel air from getting in, particularly if you've been getting pops, meaning fire in the hole, and making for more sticky oil.  That's when a squirt of lighter fluid ensures you've got fuel and air through the plug hole.  I spent many hours with various small engines thrown out, and fodder for my learning as a boy, and the lighter fluid was a good diagnostic tool.  If one of your valves is not seating fully, you will see fire out it, if you have lighter fluid ensuring you have fuel, and a slightly unseated valve will prevent the vacuum for the intake, while still providing compression, being fored to seat, and giving a false sense of seating well.  Sometimes it can be easy to forget when you get frustrated, when everything is right, they always run, period.  I kick started my bike for almost five hours changing ignition, timing, two carburetors, changing from points to electronic and back, and finally got it started, ran it for a couple weeks running horribly, finally discovering Harley changed their timing marks during the years I was raising my kids, and I had it timed with the advance set on top dead center, and got it to run, and ride there.  Once I got the timing right, it's been a one kick starter, but it was running with the timing more than thirty degrees retarded.  When everything is happening at the right time the right way, it will run and run great, the only question is niggling little details and the ease we can over-look those.  Ta ta for now,  :beer:  Cheers, jack

Offline raynerd

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #239 on: May 07, 2011, 01:04:17 PM »
it ran!!!!!     :ddb:

It Ran !!!!      :ddb:

IT RAN !!!!     :ddb:

 :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)

Well I listened to all your advice. I setup as you said Doug and then I checked the timing of the sensor Madjack which did seem to "fire" just after the magnet end had passed. I altered the timing and after a few minutes I started getting some explosions that were forcing the cylinder out - proper bangs (it didn`t actually seem quite right!!) I then tweeked the mix and it kicked it up again with the drill and it took over the bearing - I removed the drill and off it popped for about  15- 20 cycles!

Then it died and now I can`t start it again, not even get the explosions.  :doh: :lol:

But the point is it ran and with it doing that, with a bit of tweeking, more troubleshooting at least I know it WILL RUN!!

Thanks for all your help and advice.  :mmr: :mmr:

I don`t have an lighter fuel so I`ll pop out and get some later as I think this might be helpful to get it going. I`m wondering if at low revs (i.e starter drill) the valve is opening enough.

Chris
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 01:11:18 PM by craynerd »

Offline arnoldb

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #240 on: May 07, 2011, 01:21:01 PM »
Now that's really great news Chris  :D :D - Many Congratulations  :beer:!

Kind regards, Arnold

Offline NickG

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #241 on: May 07, 2011, 01:40:32 PM »
Well done Chris - you know it will work now, surely just a matter of tweaking to find the sweet spot! Well chuffed!  :thumbup:
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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #242 on: May 07, 2011, 05:23:29 PM »
Great news Chris  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I hope we will get to see the video soon  :)


Rob

Offline raynerd

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #243 on: May 07, 2011, 05:34:35 PM »
Cheers Guys - yes I can go to sleep happy that it does run. Getting it going again and reliably will be another thing!  I`ll check back in with updates when it is actually doing something worth showing :D :lol:

Offline j45on

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #244 on: May 07, 2011, 05:40:07 PM »
Nice one Chris  :ddb: I knew it would run
I cant wait for the video though  :poke:
Jason

Offline raynerd

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #245 on: May 07, 2011, 06:50:24 PM »
Hi Jason, Yes, I hope a video comes soon but my excitement has calmed a little with no further progress in the hour or so I`ve had free this evening.

I wasn`t going to post anything again until I had troubleshooted and got it running well but there seems to be a trend appearing and before I go fiddling, I was wondering if it suggested anything?

When I posted earlier I had just nipped down to the workshop to give it a go before tea. It run quite early on in the session and then progressively got worse. I`ve since been down to the workshop twice this evening, both times the engine kicked up and gave me a good little run of 20 ish cycles (OK, not a run but it clearly kicked in and started!), start up again a few coughs and tried to run a few cycles. Kick it up again and nothing but dead infrequent pops. I`ve just gone down now again before bed (wife is saying I`m obsessed) and exactly the same trend - run for a good 10-20 seconds, second attempt tried to run a few cycles at a time and then since then just pops and coughs.


I`m just curious trying to think what it could be. Other than leaving it for an hour there doesn`t seem to be anything I can do to get it to run again! I thought I was flooding the engine but I just dried the spark plug and it wasn`t really wet.

My only other thought is a worrying one! I`m leaving the petrol tank connected to the engine whilest it is sitting. Could the fuel vapour possibly be moving up the line while it is sitting so when I initially come to the engine it is running on the fuel evaporated up the line or does a few turns of the crank clear the line anway? I`m still concerned the intake valve isn`t working OK but then again, if it wasn`t working I would be getting any firing like I can hear.

Madjack, I`ve tried your method of lighter gas and I get a few more pops but it doesn`t seem to kick it in to any more life :(



Hummm puzzling.

Offline dbvandy

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #246 on: May 07, 2011, 11:52:43 PM »
you are the test bed for this ignition, so I am leaning that way...  are you by chance using rechargeable batteries?  They are only 1.2 volt, so it you have 3 of them its only 3.6v WAY not enough to recharge the caps in the ignition module. 4 is still only 4.8 v...  still probably a bit light..  4 fresh AA's will give you 6v which is right where it should be from what I have found on the internet...

Don't make big adjustments right now...  you are really close and all the valves and mechanicals are good enough to run.

Might want to try a little squirt of wd-40 in the cylinder every once and a while to keep the oring lubed.

I keep fuel in my tank for weeks on the Otto and the Webster and I can pull them off the mantle and one pull they will start right up, so I would not worry about that...

Maybe try some real gas sometime.. far more volatile, so be careful.  I have found camping fuel works the best and does not sting NEARLY as bad.

Congrats on getting it to fire... now to get it to puuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Doug

"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #247 on: May 08, 2011, 02:03:16 AM »
Quote
I`ve just gone down now again before bed (wife is saying I`m obsessed)

Yes I get that, don't know why  :scratch:,

Perhaps they'd understand if they had a shed.

 :lol:

  Good luck you,re nearly their, my record for getting an engine running is 3 weeks, so you've only another 2 weeks to go  :lol:

On a helpful note I seem to remember someone having similar problems with a vapor carb they put the problem down to the heat from the initial run effecting the vapor, fixed it by extending the length position of the input pipe, perhaps some of you more experienced IC guys can remember this and comment.

Stew



« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 02:12:41 AM by sbwhart »
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #248 on: May 08, 2011, 02:30:06 AM »
I'm rooting for you Chris.  :thumbup:

So near.......   :D

David D
David.

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Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline raynerd

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Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
« Reply #249 on: May 08, 2011, 03:37:20 AM »
Quote
I`ve just gone down now again before bed (wife is saying I`m obsessed)

Yes I get that, don't know why  :scratch:,

Perhaps they'd understand if they had a shed.

Scary thing is Stew, I honestly woke up at 6am with a bad dream that someone had stolen my workshop and a second dream that someone had fixed my engine - honestly!! I then went into my workshop from 6am to 7am obsessing about the engine again - no luck. I`ve got it bad -  :proj:  :proj:

Only just read all your replies, Stew I`ll try a longer tube from the vapour carb and see how it goes. I`m pleased that if you have taken 3 weeks getting an engine running, then I feel better now. If it was dead as a doornail I`d be worried but the fact that it has run means that something must be right.


Doug, I really do appreciate all the comments your making, your helping a lot. I`ve only just got your message regarding not making too many changes and must admit that I`ve dismantled the valve block this morning to clean it. I was worried it had oil on the valves like madjack mentioned.

Stilldrilling - thanks for the message. Fingers are crossed.


I`ve looked at a few Webster videos on youtube and there seems a little less friction on the cylinder than mine. Infact one one (I think Longboys) he spins it with his hand to start it and it fails to kick up on the first time but it does several revolutions on its own. There is a little too much friction on the piston with mine and also the compression on the "compression stroke" would also stop this from happening. I thought this was a good thing though tbh!



Chris

... like Stew said, with his 3 week record, I have another 2 weeks before I totally dispair!

Chris