Author Topic: Tool and Cutter Grinder  (Read 32938 times)

Offline GerryB

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Tool and Cutter Grinder
« on: January 20, 2011, 08:05:28 PM »
G.Day Each,
Last year i was looking for companies that resharpened Milling Cutters etc but the price's quoted outweighed their worth.
I started to look at Tool and Cutter Grinder's and how they faired.
I do realise that the modern trend is replaceable tips which i also use but being an amateur not all replaceable tips fit the operation.
Made inquiries local night  schools etc but they gave theirs away some time ago so looked at various models available for the DYS.
Fancied making the Stent but the cost of freight for the castings alone was off putting so decided on the Quorn.
Started to order castings etc from the local supplier and failed to include a set of drawings so had to wait for the supplier to set up their
order form correctly on line.
While waiting i received a CD from the UK describing different TCG setups and included in the program was a set of drawings for making the Bonelle Tool and Cutter Grinder.
I got onto their web site (just type 'Bonnelle TCG' in Google) and there was the information on its construction,history etc including a full set of drawings to download.
No castings needed,only standard stock material.
It is very much like the Quorn only (my thoughts only) seems stronger.
I started to order material from local suppliers and this is where the Metric/Imperial issue raises it head.
The Drawings are Imperial with maybe a little Metric (BA threads,Bearings etc) also they are 1st Angle Projection so be warned.
You must study the Drawings well before starting any machining and make allowances for what you can get in the way of stock material.
EG.The main foundation ends should be 2'' and 1 1/2" Cast  Iron Bar Stock respectfully.
OK 50mm Cast Iron stock is acceptable for the 2" but that is the smallest size they supply so i means that the other end base will have to be 50mm and allowances made.
I have made a start on various parts and a few mistakes.
I mentioned that the Drawings are in 1st Angle Projection,well as i only saw 3rd Angle Projection all my time in Coventry Aircraft and Car industry it confused me at first especially the first drawing.
Have a look and you will see what i mean.
GerryB

Offline GerryB

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2011, 06:47:05 PM »
 :hammer:
Sorry Guys i forgot to tell you that the Drawings and info. are free of charge.
GerryB

Offline andyf

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2011, 06:58:10 PM »
Hi George,

I should love a T & C grinder, but even contemplating doing something like that myself brings on a headache. Look forward to seeing how someone who knows what he's doing  :bow: gets along with it, though, so keep it coming.

Andy

Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline GerryB

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2011, 03:43:44 AM »
G.Day Andy,
Don' :beer:t be put off by the finished article.
Look at it this way,it was designed by man and possibly assembled by the same person.
Its all you have to do is study the Drawings (Which are free) decide which detail you can comfortably make and do it.
When you have done that one and are satisfied then on with the next.
Don't be put off with mistakes,we all make them thats how we learn.
Before long you will have completed the job and looking for the next project.
GerryB :beer:

Offline mhh

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2011, 03:17:25 PM »
I've often considered making the bonelle or Qourn TC grinder had the plans for a few years now I have access to all material needed and I even begun to convert and redraw the plan to metric.... BUT I've been so lucky to get my hands on a Astra Ar5 TC grinder perfect machine! but still the idea of having made the Bonelle my self.. well that would be amazing! It looks really good! So good luck with it! amazing project!

Offline GerryB

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2011, 10:09:09 PM »
G.Day Each,
I have not given up the Bonnelle TCG its just that i have purchased a new lathe,see Chinese Lathe C06230A in the 'Tools'
I started the machining of the various parts as took my want on the South Bend and the Drill/Mill.
After setting up the new lathe i started to make items on it due to wanting to play with the new toy.
The new toy was perfect.
I did mention before that the drawings are in 1st angle projection,this still throws me and i still have to go back to basics every time i use the drawings.
No fault of the Draftsman,just my own history in usind 3rd angle projection during my days in Coventry UK.
The first items to be machined were the Two Main Ends.
These are made from Cast Iron Bar as purchased.
The only problem i encountered was that i could not get Cast Iron Bar in 2'' but only in 50mm and that was 50mm minimum.
The largest end is given as 2'' whilst the other smaller end is 1.5''.
Now as i could only get 50mm i decided to make the smaller end in 50mm also.
No problems,but i do have to make allowences in the dimentions of other details that are in contact with the small end.
You will also have to find out where the detail you are making fits so that you machine it to the required fit,this can be hair pulling sometimes.
I have found a few small mistakes in the drawings as you will.
If as i did you machine the main ends first,get your main shafts ready and machine the main holes to be a good fit to these.
Remember you have only one chance to get the final cut right,over size hole dia means that you scrap and start again with another piece of cast iiron bar.
Will continue witha few photos later on.
GerryB

Offline GerryB

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2011, 08:17:35 PM »
Hi.
Most of the machining of the two Base ends is straight forward.
Note that the two holes marked 'C' in the first drawing are incorrect that is you should not be able to see them until viewing the bottom drawing which is correct.
It is these small faults that can throw you off.
Also note that the holes are marked as 8mm,no problem untill you try to fit detail 'B4/1.
Any one requiring a Det 1/B4.
The 8mm threaded holes "C" are used to secure the two Base end together so that when you machine out the two holes that hold the main shafts they will be inline with each other.
Be carefull here when setting up for boring,i suggest that you mount the work on the cross slide and not remove or alter settings untill both holes have  been opened up to take the shafts.
If you set up in the 4 jaw.which is ok but you may be boring a cone shaped hole depending on the accuracy of your lathe.
The pictures enclose show the slot being milled in the small end to accept the 1''x3/8" bar in B5.
Here again depending on wether or not you are able to get 3/8'x1'' stock you may have to alter the set up to accept the nearest size  you have.
I use a 3/8''Slot Drill to mill out the recess.
Do not on any account use a 3/8'' milling cutter or you will make a hash of  the job.
In many engineering books that i have read little is said if anything about the use of different types of milling cutters other than use Slot Drill to cut slots and milling cutters for other milliing operations.,and plenty of photographs of profesional set ups.
I love to read instructions and information on setting up but despair when no information is forthcoming as to why or what will happen it you do or use something different.
I will try to explain what happens when milling slots later on,so here are a couple of photos to be getting on with.
GerryB

Offline John Hill

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2011, 08:45:17 PM »
Good start there Gerry! :thumbup:

From the den of The Artful Bodger

Offline Poorfit

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2011, 07:44:16 AM »
I have been following this site for a while now. Work and travel kept me out of the flow and found I spent more time finding out what I missed, than being able to participate. The Bonnelle T&CG is a real challenge for a builder. The only problem is I have not been able to obtain a set of plans for making it. The sites on the internet that I tried either do not open or the one that did would not open for download of the plans. Can anyone give me a site that works. The only alternative so far is Canadian Government Surplus machine up for auction that weighs 2000 Lbs. and uses 575 volts 3 phase.

Ed

Offline David Jupp

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2011, 07:58:45 AM »
Try this site
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/j.b.d.willis/bonelle_tcg.htm

It may be slow at some times of day.  The drawings are definitely there as a PDF file.

Offline Poorfit

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2011, 08:52:09 AM »
David, many thanks for the lead on how to get the drawings. My face is a little red, I forgot to click on the icon up in the left hand corner. All down loaded and a binder set up to start.

Ed

Offline dsquire

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2011, 06:08:04 PM »
David, many thanks for the lead on how to get the drawings. My face is a little red, I forgot to click on the icon up in the left hand corner. All down loaded and a binder set up to start.

Ed

Ed

Don't feel too bad about that. I think that we have all had some of those moments, especially at the beginning. It still happens to me and I have been fighting with them for over 25 years. Glad that you have it sorted now though.  :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don

Good, better, best.
Never let it rest,
'til your good is better,
and your better best

Offline GerryB

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2011, 01:26:02 AM »
G.Day each,here we go again.
I did promise that i would explain what is happening during Slot Cutting.
Now its not my intention to teach Granmar how to suck eggs but what i am trying to explain is what is missing from Technical Journals.
I am not saying that it is not there but that i have never seen it,so here goes.
In diagram No.1 we have a 4 bladed milling cutter cutting a slot in a piece of metal.
This would be the view looking down on the work.
Cutter blade 'A' is cutting and  it is also traveling into the material.(remember this)
Cutter 'B' has finished its cutting.
Cutter 'C' is doing nothing.
Cutter 'D' is just about to start cutting.

The forces set up by cutter 'A' will force the cutter to move over to the left  causing 'D' to start its cut deeper into the side of 'L'.
At the same time cutter 'B' is relieved from its cutting of side 'R'.
Now this is not a sudden condition but is gradual during the whole rotation and movement  of the cutter into the work.
This operation is the cause of rough sides to the slot and an increase in the width.

Now have a look at diagram No.2
This is what is happening when the cutter has broken out from the slot cutting and is still advancing only there is now lighter forces in play to prevent the cutter from advancing so it is usual to find that the cutter moves forward further than required.
Now this is the most dangerous time for the cutter.
Look at diagram No.3
This is the shape of the remaining material during the brake out.
The cutter 'A' is about to come onto contact with the remaining material on the right.
See how much it is expected to cut on contact,plus the fact that the whole milling cutter is moving forward unopposed.
Now i will lay you odds on that this is where your cutter teeth broke off and you were at a loss to know why.
Its happened to me and to every on else.

This is one of the reasons for not using a milling cutter to cut slots.
Now i will not use the word 'never' as there is always the exception.
You may have come across a 3 bladed milling cutter,these are ok but not very common.
The other time to use a milling cutter is when you have not got a slot drill of the required dimension.
You can cut a slot using a smaller diameter milling cutter to cut the slot leaving the sides to be cut to the finished size.
Of cause this will entail extra work,time and patience but it can be done.

Now what happens when we use a Slot Drill.
Slot Drills are what they say they are,cutters for cutting slots and will also drill,but be careful here they are not like your common drills.
Where as a milling cutter will not drill out any thing above 10 to 15 thou the slot drill has no qualms about depth,but remember it is not a drill.
It comes into its own when cutting a slot that ends within the bounds of the material therefor does not come out at the edges.
Here you allow the cutter to cut to the depth you set for the first cut and away you go.
When you get to the end you cut a little deeper and cutting a deeper slot return to the start.
The depth of cut will  depend on many factors that you will have to adhere to ,material,size of slot,quality of the cutter,milling machine,finish required,
cutting liquids( not cast iron) removal of swarf,etc,etc.
Lets take a look at diagram No.4.

Here we are set up as per the other but using a two bladed cutter,or slot drill.
When i first came across the slot drill i thought that it was a cutter intended for routing wood and the like.i mean who would foolishly try cutting steel with a cutter with only two blades when milling cutters have at least 4.
I was to learn!
As you can see the two cutters are 180 deg.apart meaning that when one cutter is engaged the other is free.
This is simply a double fly cutter.
Due to the fact that only one cutter is engaged at a time any displacement of the whole cutter does not cause any other cutter to engage in the side of the work.
So cutter 'A' starts its cut and in so doing causes the cutter to go the the left a few thou but cutter 'B' is free and does not come into operation until cutter 'A' has finished its cut so no problems.
By the time cutter 'A' arrives at the right side it is cutting less therefore less force is acting on the whole cutter now allowing it to resume its original center.
This cutting action gives the required close dimensions required in the slot.
But! please remember if you are cutting a slot out to the sides of the material,slow down.tighten up the Gibbs and keep swarf out of the way.

I am indebted to a gentleman i use to talk to when the annual exhibition of the Model Engineers was held at the Seymore Hall in London during the 50s.and early 60s.
He was always dressed in a white cow gown and making use of a Myford Super 7.
He would chat with any one about engineering problems.
I miss him.
GerryB

Offline Miner

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2011, 07:40:10 PM »
I may have missed it's mention somewhere in this thread but I'd highly recommend the book Building the Quorn avalible in the U.K. Lots of setups, instructions ect. It's well worth buying even if your building the bar stock type of tool grinder.

Pete

Offline GerryB

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2011, 12:37:28 AM »
Hi Pete,
I have not seen the Quorn instruction book.although i did originally order it,which fell through.
Any instruction information that gives us a push in the right direction is welcome in our libraries.
I have seen quite a few instruction books that are on sale at  the moment but   they all seem to have been written over 30 years ago,nothing seems to be available with modern technology,eg. Digital Measuring instruments and Digital Read Out units.
I will have to ask my Son in the UK to get me a copy of the Quorn Book.
GerryB

Offline Miner

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2011, 03:19:49 AM »
Hi Gerry,
Yeah I do know what you mean, Most of the books are a bit out of date and the Quorn book is no exception. But I think you'll find it well worthwhile for your project.

Pete

Offline GerryB

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2011, 12:12:02 AM »
G.Day Each,here i go again,
I have made most of the Details but still need to get some sheet metal to make the items requiring sheet brass etc.
I also have painted some of the surfaces that i deem to be needing a little help in stopping the old rust problem.
Although i live in the driest state on the driest Continent,we still have a problem with the old rust bug.
Remember at the beginning i mentioned the problem in had with cast iron stock so that i decided to use the same size for both ends.
Well now comes the problems.
I did make the Bar units 1/2" longer than the dimension given.The reason for 1/2'' was to keep the distance between the Bars as per Drawing.
I started to assemble the Front Bar Unit when i noticed that there was more to it than the details (see Drawing No.J1)
According to the assembly there are about 7 more items to be fitted.
The first is what i presume is a Spring Washer,between J2/3 and J2/5.
The other two are possibly Harden Steel Balls and they seem to be Peaned over at their holders.
One holder is the threaded item J2/4 but there is no mention of the other Ball older or the size of the spring.
I must presume that the Balls are in contact with some item that appears to be proud on the slot cut in the  control (left) side but is there one on the right and if so what is the material and are they indented to accept the Ball.?
Has any one got this far in the construction?
Another problem that has occurred is the 'clamping arrangement of the main block of the Wheel Head Unit.
I have made the unit as per drawing but it fails to clamp itself to the Bar no matter how much i try to tighten the screw,
It would seem that i shall have to cut some of the clamping part away so that it will allow it to move under the action of the tightening  screw.
Also i have still not secured any of the assemblies as per instructions on the drawings as i feel that the moment i do i will find that i have to disassemble the item to make some further adjustment or alteration,so i prefer to test all possible avenues first than when i am satisfied that every thing works ok then secure with 'Locktight'.
I will try to get some pictures to show.
GerryB 

Offline GerryB

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2011, 02:40:05 AM »
Well,i dismantled the Wheel Head Assy and mounted the main block C4 in the Miller.
Fitted a 1/16" Slot Drill and proceeded to mill out a slot to 50 tho in depth.
Set up on the Post and tried to tighten,no good.
Re set on the Miller and increased the depth to .1" still no go.
Set up once more and milled out the other side to ,1",now we are getting somewhere,its starting to bight so will cut out both to .150" and hope that will solve the problem.
Picture shows first cut to .050"
GerryB

Offline GerryB

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2011, 12:32:21 AM »
G.Day Guy's
Well i relieved the slot i was cutting in the Main motor mounting block by another .1" making the depth no to .15".
Testing this out on the shaft i was relieved to find that it now started to grip but i am still not quite satisfied with it and will probably make a further cut.
Now the drawing of the part G7/1 calls for the holes to be tapped 2BA,this is no problem except that i cannot get 2BA Allan Cap bolts out here so i made mine 5mm.
No sweat until i came to assemble the unit to G5+G6.
G6  gives the position of the holes to mount the block,problems,the holes are very close to the inside edge of G5/1.
So i had to relieve the side of the 2.25 inside dia of G5/1 to allow the heads of the 5mm cap bolts to fit.
Now looking in my box of various cap screws i came across a 2BA bolt,tried to fit this in the hole in G5 and still would not go so even if i had tapped for 2BA i would still have to relieve for the heads.
Another annoying problem that has arisen is that i forked out for a set of Counter Bore Cutters for Metric bolts.
Some bolts fit but not all as i found out when i purchased a box of 5mm Allan Cap Bolts.
I have had to cut down the side of the Bolt Head to fit the Counterbore i had cut during the detail.
See Photos.
Photo 1and 2 shows the relief being cut on the inside edge.
Photo 3 shows shows the block fitted,you will also note the cut side of the Allan Bolt head.
GerryB

Offline GerryB

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2011, 12:43:09 AM »
G.Day Each,
I did place some material explaining some anomalies plus a few photos,but where they went too when i posted them is anybody's guess.
So here we go again,only this time i will split it up.
First we go to the main Base Assy.
After  deciding that i had drilled all the necessary holes etc in the main Cast Iron Base's i decided that it was time to secure the rear fixed Bar to the ends.
Now the distance between the ends is 12".
My Surface Plate is a 12''x18'',great!
Only the 12" is actually 12.01 so i had to set it up with 'V' Blocks,see photo.
Clean and coat holes and shaft ends with Locktight.
Gerry

Offline GerryB

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2011, 01:20:23 AM »
Here  we go again.
Having made most of the details to drawings i should have known better.
It.s ok to make the article but when you require to offer it up to its mating part you get problems due to the difference's in accuracy.
If one hole is 10 thou out,fair enough.but when the mating hole is also 10 thou the other way then you are 20 thou out which is a lot.
I should have realised this and made necessary arrangements when making the details,are well my own fault.
Now we come to the Wheel Head Assy.
The outline Drawing C1 shows that the threaded block C11/1 is situated with the thread at the rear of the square shaft C11/2.
If you look at the photo's of finished units construction notes you may see that the  block is positioned in a forward position.
Now weather or not this is deliberate i can only guess that both ways are available depending on the set up.
Now look at detail C8/1,you will notice that there are two 1/2" holes that will be fitted with Phosphor Bearings for the threaded rod C10/1.
I could not find any dimensions for the Phosphor Bearings so i made up two to the possible size.
You will also notice two holes marked 1/8''.
These are for the reading off marks on the threaded rods top.
Why you should need two points to read the setting when one is enough.
I can only think that the other position to fit the threaded rod should have its sighting point on the end the same as the right position.

Offline Pappy Frank

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2011, 01:31:55 AM »
Great job there so far.
I have looked at both the Quorn and the Bonell and decided to build the Bonell when I came across the Brooks Stent. Not much info about it on the Net that I can find, but worth looking at. Now I am undecided again. Hope your work will help me decide.

There is a Yahoo group for the Quorn that has a lot of information for both the Quorn and the Bonell. They have the plans for both on their website as well as the operation guide for the Quorn. Both would do a lot of good no matter which one you might build. It is easy to find just go to the Yahoo group page and type in Quorn and you will find it.

Keep up the Good Work

Pappy Frank


Offline GerryB

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2011, 02:05:14 AM »
Cont.
You will notice that the centre line of detail C8/1 is central to the whole detail.
Now take a look at the right hand drawing of the Wheel Head Guide on C7.
Notice that the Centre Line is over to the left of centre of the block.
This gives more room for the tightening bolt.
When i came to assemble the Wheel Head Guide Assembly i noticed that the two holes in the threaded block were out of position by about 1/8" see photo.
Also the top block C8/1 was also over the edge of the Main Sliding Block C4 by 1/8". see photo.
I decided to remake the Details C8/1 and C8/2togethe :drool:r with another threaded block C11/1.
This time i left the overall size of the threaded block larger than required.
Drilled and taped for the threaded rod then when fitted milled the dimensions needed.
This was due to the alignment of the thread in the block is very critical for smooth operation.
I also had to reposition the two threaded holes in the main block to fit the threaded block.
At this stage i secured the Wheel Head Guide Assembly according to C7.
Note that the Guide Shaft C11/2 is given as 1/2" square.
Mine turned out to be 12mm square so the set up on C7 has to be adjusted.
GerryB

Offline GerryB

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2011, 02:50:19 AM »
Started assembling the Sliding Base.
The Drawing G4 shows the main unit as 40mm square.
I expect that it should be Cast Iron,but i cannot find any ref.so i made mine of Mild Steel.
Drilled and taped all the holes required and found my faults.
I should have only done one hole for each plate,
Secured the plates in correct orientation with each other and then drilled and taped the other holes.
This is what is called 'fitting'.
I had quite a job getting the holes to line up but managed in the end.
Now comes another anomaly.
See detail G3/3, a threaded piece 1/4" thick.
Now which side of the plate G3/2 is it fitted to?
If on the inside then it is too thick.
If on the outside what is taking up the distance required on the inside.
Also look at the dimension given for the  security bolt L1/4
Nothing seems to add up.
I made a distance piece from the dimension of the gap left after assembling the units.
I secured the Nut G3/3 to the outside and pinned the whole lot together,also shortening the Bolt by about 3/16".
The various drawings that show the assembly. show a distance piece between the rear plate and the Tilting Bracket G9/1 but no security nut.
See photo.
GerryB

Offline GerryB

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Re: Tool and Cutter Grinder
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2011, 11:32:27 PM »
I know,there are a lot of small parts to assemble and they will be done in time.
The next item is the Spindle Assembly.
You may already have a suitable Spindle Assy. that you use on the Lathe or such.
If it is suitable to the dimensions of F1 then you are laughing otherwise,prepair for a bout of precision turning.
One of the first things you must get are a pair of suitable Bearings as the dimensions of these will dictate to you the size and dimensions when machining  the main unit.
The second is the machining of the main housing.F3/1
This will test you prowess on Boring.
If it is at all possible you may like to make a suitable collet to hold the housing central due to having to reverse the unit in order to machine the other end,and it is important that both ends are in line with each other,for obvious reasons.
If you do make a suitable collet then you can reverse during machining to your heart content.
The only other way will be to reverse using a 4 jaw chuck.
Remember your choice of Bearings will dictate the size of the main housing.
There are two bearings recommended in the construction drawings,namely.EN13 Imperial,and ISO 7202 Metric.
When it comes to cutting the threads on the ends it will matter little what thread it is providing it is a fine thread,also leave the setting as you will need it to cut the thread on the end caps to suit.
The 6 Springs required for the constant pressure of the bearing at the drive end may be a problem.
A suitable spring may be found that can be cut to length.
Failing that it is not too hard to make your own.
A suitable gauge of Piano Wire,a suitable dia of Mandrel plenty of patience and there you go.
They do not have to be super strong,there are 6 of them.
I am sorry that there is no information given on the spring required.
I made mine from a spring i found in a box of springs (where else) stretched to a suitable length and cut with a small Carborundum Wheel fitted in a 12 volt drill,
When the 6 springs were fitted there seemed a suitable pressure on the bearing,time will tell.
The end caps will be required next.
Cut the thread to the same setting as used in the female end threads of the main housing.
You now have the main housing to try out the fit and to adjust as required the cut of the thread.
The other details need no explaining,they are quite straight forward even if a little wasteful on material(plenty of swarf)
If you have done your homework every thing should assemble correctly and all should run smoothly.
A suitable lubricant should be inserted before final assembly.
GerryB