Author Topic: Any hope for the kids?  (Read 8635 times)

Offline Raggle

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Any hope for the kids?
« on: January 26, 2011, 06:08:03 PM »
Currently advertised on Ebay is a small lathe/mill aimed at children. The seller has found it necessary to add the following comment:

Quote
Was used to show young children how little steam engines were machined but for health & safety reasons we had to stop letting them use it as the chucks are unguarded so we teach them to make sailboats now.

Yes, it's a Unimat 1. I'm not suggesting any of you buy it, though it is the metaline version.

In Europe CoolTool, the manufacturers, visit village halls and the like to involve children from 6 years upwards in machining, beginning with wood and progressing through soft metals. In schools they are present at all levels including CNC. Or at least the website seems to claim.

Youth unemployment is now running at about 20% in UK (and US I hear). Manufacturing is an alien world to kids now. Seems they've been told it's dirty and you can get hurt. Any ideas who told them that? Teachers need a degree these days, and it doesn't seem to matter in which discipline, arts or science.

Unimat1 in plastic is not up to much, but it runs on 12v and will turn brass and aluminium. Users are encouraged to reinforce the setups with extra plates of metal and this in itself can be instructive to a youngster, rigidity is ingrained into the memory.

So why can Austrians and Germans subject their small people to the rigours of spinning chucks and we in Uk cannot?

Ray
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2011, 02:18:19 AM »
Purely because we are following the way of the US.

Lawsuits rule OK.

You won't be able to fart soon without someone bringing a lawsuit against you.

It all boils down to greed and looking after #1, like most problems nowadays.


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Offline benchmark

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2011, 04:46:53 AM »
JI totally agree with you.
Just like steam engines were standard toys for little boys my granddad used to say, for me i was not allowed to get one until i was almost a teenager.
I am not saying its wrong to protect kids, but to over protect them is equally dangerous and robbing them of the much needed common sense and 'street safety' as i call it.

In my sons school, i still see parents helping thier 7 year old children to wear shoes!! something that every child should be competent enough with at that age especially condisering that i have seen 6 year old child in Africa responsible taking for 30 cows down to the river to drink every day he got back from school.

Point is , responsibility and common sense isshould be taught and not expeectet to be aquired automatically with age.
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Offline Ned Ludd

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2011, 08:16:33 AM »
Hi Guys,
I saw youngsters using a lathe, on the SM&EE stand, at Alexandra Palace last weekend and not an H&S inspector in site. Funnily enough they seemed to be enjoying themselves too.

About this greedy idea of suing at the least provocation, I like to refer to it as "Lottery winning culture", by which I mean that people seem to think they are owed, or can get, a fortune for nothing. The Lottery has put the idea in the minds of the "great unwashed" that money, and lots of it, is the answer to all their problems. This is of course a false assumption, but I am willing to put the theory to the test if someone has a few million spare.  :wave:
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Offline krv3000

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2011, 10:22:34 AM »
HI all if a H/S man went into most home workshops they wood ban you from entering them  :zap:

Offline mike os

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2011, 11:20:41 AM »
if one enters mine he may never emerge in recognisable form :bugeye:
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Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2011, 12:44:00 PM »
I can't answer for Europe, but my wife was a member of the local school board for many years.  Our (then) logging-based economy town was never given grief over our shop classes.  They were finally put to rest about five years ago because the teacher who had run things retired and we could not get a teaching-certified replacement.

The (larger) town thirty miles away canceled all their shop classes back in the 1980's over a fear of lawsuits.  This is a commonly cited reason for such cancellations.  The only problem is that such things are nearly mythical (at least here in the U.S.).  Waivers created in the 1920's provide legal protection for the school against such lawsuits unless based on malfeasance on the part of the teacher.  The parents have to sign them.  Most schools with which I am familiar would have a parent orientation night with respect to any shop class with power tools or sharp tools.  If a parent could not or would not attend, they had to sign a form noting that they had been offered the chance to attend the orientation, but had not.

The "problem" lies more with parents than with schools.  When my eldest-daughter was in "middle school," a "parent orientation night" was held.  More than half the parents were concerned about "keyboarding" and running specific pieces of software for the programming class than wanted to know what types of systems the kids would be programming!  Two decades on, it is nearly impossible to find a computer programming class in middle or high schools in our area -- the home of Microsoft and several other "software" companies.  This was driven by parents!

I always forget the guy's name, but he was the Chancellor at UC Berkeley who sparked the "Free Speech Movement" there in the early-1960's.  He was the Nixon Administration's "Undersecretary for Education."  In 1959 he gave a speech at Wharton College (which my mother, a doctorate in Education, attended) where he said, "We are not in the business of educating people, we are in the business of selling education.  It does not matter if 'Johnny can't read' when he leaves school, we can always sell him such classes later!"  These are the people who have been in control of setting "educational goals" for four decades now here in the U.S.

I attended public schools here in the U.S. -- in six different States.  I graduated high school in 1971.  The math class my daughters had as seniors in high school was the math class I had in seventh grade!  One of my (youngest) daughter's history "teachers" tried to tell her that the War of the Roses never happened!  Philosophy and logic classes (a mainstay of junior high and high school when I was in such places) are no longer taught.  Instead, we get classes on "how to use the internet" -- as if there is a kid anywhere in America who needs such instruction.

I will add that I usually have half-a-dozen kids hanging around my shop on summer evenings and weekends.  There are a couple who follow through for weekends during the school year.  That's out of a neighborhood with (about) forty total 10-18 year old kids.  Where schools fail, the "crazy old coots" need to stand up for traditions.  Isn't that what we here are all about?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 12:50:45 PM by Lew_Merrick_PE »

Offline John Hill

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2011, 04:28:10 PM »

I will add that I usually have half-a-dozen kids hanging around my shop on summer evenings and weekends.  There are a couple who follow through for weekends during the school year.  That's out of a neighborhood with (about) forty total 10-18 year old kids.  Where schools fail, the "crazy old coots" need to stand up for traditions.  Isn't that what we here are all about?

It would be nice to have a few interested kids hanging around my shop but I would be afraid of be accused of kiddy fiddling or some such.
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Offline Raggle

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2011, 05:30:04 PM »
Thank you for all the replies. Lew's was particularly illuminating.

I just wonder whether similar restrictions apply with Chinese and Indian kids? No answer expected

Ray
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Offline benchmark

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2011, 05:51:27 PM »
Thank you for all the replies. Lew's was particularly illuminating.

I just wonder whether similar restrictions apply with Chinese and Indian kids? No answer expected

Ray

And guess which nations are slowly taking over the worlds industrial empire  :coffee:
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Offline rleete

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2011, 09:18:56 AM »
Lew, your post makes some very good points, but there is another factor which I think is often ignored.  The old timers who know it all.

Now, before anyone bites my head off, there are obviously exceptions.  Boggs statement that knowledge not passed on is wasted, and his adherence to those principals is our best example.  But we all know about that "other place" that has supposed professionals and yet seems to be more about childish egos than machining.

Nothing will put off an inexperienced person faster (in any field) than being told by a self-appointed "expert" that they are wrong/ignorant without then teaching a correct method.  Also, that the method used may not be the only correct way.  Being berated and browbeat doesn't help unless it's to reinforce a serious lesson (a major safety issue, for instance) that needs to be made perfectly clear.  Being told that using a chinese machine which the buyer has just purchased is a complete waste of time, useless for the purpose or otherwise made to feel inferior will certainly put a damper on the enthusiasm.

This is the reason this site and HMEM have done so well; the complete lack of judgemental criticism.  That the more experienced help and nurture rather than scold.


Oh, and we should just shoot all the lawyers. 
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Offline andyf

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2011, 09:30:43 AM »
..... Oh, and we should just shoot all the lawyers. 

I knew retiring six years back was the right thing to do  :lol:

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Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2011, 11:54:31 AM »
Lew, your post makes some very good points, but there is another factor which I think is often ignored.  The old timers who know it all.

Now, before anyone bites my head off, there are obviously exceptions.  Boggs statement that knowledge not passed on is wasted, and his adherence to those principals is our best example.  But we all know about that "other place" that has supposed professionals and yet seems to be more about childish egos than machining.

Nothing will put off an inexperienced person faster (in any field) than being told by a self-appointed "expert" that they are wrong/ignorant without then teaching a correct method.  Also, that the method used may not be the only correct way.  Being berated and browbeat doesn't help unless it's to reinforce a serious lesson (a major safety issue, for instance) that needs to be made perfectly clear.  Being told that using a chinese machine which the buyer has just purchased is a complete waste of time, useless for the purpose or otherwise made to feel inferior will certainly put a damper on the enthusiasm.

This is the reason this site and HMEM have done so well; the complete lack of judgemental criticism.  That the more experienced help and nurture rather than scold.

Oh, and we should just shoot all the lawyers.

I would argue that the real "issue" here is competence.  The problem is not lawyers, bureaucrats, or whatever cause-de-jure is being raised.  The problem is incompetent lawyers, bureaucrats, or whatever.

As I said, I graduated high school in 1971.  I had math through integral calculus and introductory differential equations.  I had three full years of physics, two years of chemistry, a year of "Earth Sciences" (actually a very good class that had originally been intended to be a fluff class), as well as the full load of civics, history, English, philosophy, and four years of German.

I did not start college until 1975.  In that interim: high school math "stopped" at algebra/trig, few science classes went more than a single year, English became a joke, and many other classes such as civics and philosophy had disappeared!  I challenged for placement and started, pretty much across the board, as a junior in college.  Papers I had written in high school (and got a 'B' on) were retyped, updated slightly, and submitted for history and literature classes.  They all were graded 'A' and returned with pages of notes praising their detail and construction.  It was really quite shocking.

One of the things that started appearing during this period was that employees in general and government employees in particular ceased to be judged by the way in which they did their jobs so much as the philosophy of doing their job.  If you did your job and fixed things, you were not graded well and given raises and promotions.  However, if you made a "problem" move from place to place (ensuring that it could be "fixed" over and over), you got the raises and promotions.  This was implemented under the title of Crisis Management.  It first appeared on my RADAR in transportation projects.  So-called traffic management took over from the traditional hydraulic analysis of streets and highways -- and the problems accumulated and demanded crisis responses.

I first heard the terms Crisis Management and Traffic Management from a neighbor in 1972.  He and several of his colleagues were being "downgraded" (the first step towards firing them) because their "operational style was not consistent with DoT practices."  These were men with 20+ years of experience in setting traffic light timing (at that time in the city of Seattle you could travel on any arterial and, once having 'made' the first traffic light, you would make every following light if you drove at the speed limit -- there were five intersections in all of Seattle where this was not true -- over an area 35 miles long X 12 miles wide) and insuring that damage to paved surfaces were repaired!  Every succeeding 'generation' of traffic engineers in Seattle have succeeded in making such problems worse, not better.  This is because only "crisis" situations get funded.

This model of Zero-Based Funding (aka Crisis Management) was (and is) taught at all the major "schools of business."  It was first implemented at GM back when William (What's good for GM is good for America) Smith ran the company.  It is one of those thing that gives a couple of years of appearance of increasing efficiency and reducing costs that fail over any longer period.  We have been practicing this theory for four decades now without review or comment.

I think of this often when dealing with our education industry.  There are many teachers fighting in the trenches to educate children.  Unfortunately, there are also many teachers who have surrendered to a system that rewards the creation and maintenance of "crisis."  The measure of excellence applied to (American) school districts is not that they educate their students, it is the ratio of those who do graduate who go on to college.  It does not matter of 40% of your students drop out of school so long as at least 40% of those students who do graduate go on to college -- your school district is a "success" if that is the case.

Offline Raggle

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2011, 08:31:30 AM »
Lew said
Quote
The "problem" lies more with parents than with schools.

My 2 yr-old grandson is besotted with tractors and diggers. But most of his toys have some kind of electronic beep or whizzing noise. I don't get to see him very often but when he shows enough signs of needing them I have a lot of Meccano junk to foist on him. At present I'm informed he doesn't put things in his mouth much (the great fear of toy manufacturers who have to mark their product with "3 yrs +") but I don't think he'd manage the tiny nuts and bolts just yet. He is showing signs of finding out how things work so the day won't be too far off. He can change his own AA batteries!

Following that he will eventually receive a plastic Unimat1, followed by my Taig lathe and Adept hand shaper, etc when I am either truly past it or demised.

Finding enough information aimed at kids to encourage these skills is a bit harder than it should be and this must be the duty of parents, in the full knowledge that the schools cannot provide it.

The aim here is not necessarily to raise a nation of machinists, rather to foster the curiosity in kids as to how things work and, more to the point, how "I" can do it, or improve it, or try out ideas.

"Health and Safety" starts with the simple instruction we all got at an early age  -  "don't run with scissors!"

H&S as quoted by the Ebay advertiser translates as fear of litigation as Bogs said. I once walked down a road and a truck doing 50 mph missed me by 18 inches. It did it again the next day and the next, just the same as many trucks had missed, and still miss pedestrians. Reason is I was on the pavement (sidewalk) and the truck kept to his part of the road. If the H&S crisis management people really got their way there would be a safety fence between us.

I'm looking forward to the day when I can tell young Milo to avoid that spinning chuck and sharp drill. I KNOW he will be fine.

Ray
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Offline kwackers

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2011, 10:18:39 AM »
Most of the nonsense about H&S is exactly that. Urban myths spread around. The real issue is that they're believed and acted upon by folk.
The H&S website even has a section devoted to urban myths, worth a read and in particular worth reading what their mission statement is - it's certainly not what the DM would have you believe.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/index.htm

The issue is much more one of culture rather than H&S. We've brought up children to expect a quick fix. When I was a kid I had meccano, then people moved over to lego which was quicker because it just clicked together, now even lego is pre-constructed into modules, couple of clicks and you're done.
Todays kids have a attention span measured in seconds, not even long enough to turn a piece to size! This has ramifications for society as a whole, a whole generation of adults now exist who want immediate gratification, either through consumerism where they become indebted because they can't wait, bad drivers who lack the patience to deal with others or people who simply can't settle down and flit from one thing to another becoming more and more irritated and impatient.
We seem to be becoming a society or 'rushers', jumping from one event to the next without stepping back, relaxing and enjoying the moment.

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2011, 12:58:46 PM »
Most of the nonsense about H&S is exactly that. Urban myths spread around. The real issue is that they're believed and acted upon by folk.
The H&S website even has a section devoted to urban myths, worth a read and in particular worth reading what their mission statement is - it's certainly not what the DM would have you believe.

Exactly!  Here in the U.S. the group is the State ISHA's (the federal OSHA is virtually toothless).  I work with State IHSA's all the time.  The overwhelming majority of the people working for such agencies are helpful, knowledgeable, considerate, and competent people.  Yes, the exception proves the rule, but they are exceptions!

The issue is much more one of culture rather than H&S. We've brought up children to expect a quick fix. When I was a kid I had meccano, then people moved over to lego which was quicker because it just clicked together, now even lego is pre-constructed into modules, couple of clicks and you're done.  Todays kids have a attention span measured in seconds, not even long enough to turn a piece to size! This has ramifications for society as a whole, a whole generation of adults now exist who want immediate gratification, either through consumerism where they become indebted because they can't wait, bad drivers who lack the patience to deal with others or people who simply can't settle down and flit from one thing to another becoming more and more irritated and impatient.

We seem to be becoming a society or 'rushers', jumping from one event to the next without stepping back, relaxing and enjoying the moment.

Exactly!  The "average kid" won't even take the time needed to learn play a musical instrument -- even if that is their "dream" (of the moment).  The "trick," as I see it, is to catch those who understand that good things take time and encourage them.  Taking a kid who (say) wants to make an electric guitar and going through the paces of building "experimental" necks with them until they understand what features make a good electric guitar neck is a good starting point.  Those who never reach beyond instant gratification are screwed -- but what can we do about that?  Not a bloody thing!

You have no idea the hours of school board meetings I have sat through listening to parents complain that having their children spend time doing homework somehow disrupts their family.

Offline krv3000

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Re: Any hope for the kids?
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2011, 05:33:27 PM »
hi as regards to india i went ther on wot you wood say a busmans holiday thers nothing gos to wast thers hole streets of lil work shops with kids as young as 5 metal bashing melting dawn cock cans remaking led acid baterys making flip flops out of old tyers ches graters out of bicket tins tin toys out of old food cans to see sum of them youse the old type soldering iron ie the type you heet up on a fire is an arte in its self give a youth of today a moden soldering iron they probely wood think its a wond of harey poter   :D