Author Topic: Square Bolts  (Read 13785 times)

Offline Gerhard Olivier

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Square Bolts
« on: January 19, 2011, 11:04:29 AM »
Please I need some ideas

With the wood engine I need a lot of Square nuts that have that destinct old fasioned look.
any ideas on how to make a lot of those would be very helpfull.

They would need to be metric M2.5 or M3  sizes

The things I dont know is how big would the square part need to be?
How thick would the nut need to be?

Do you make them from square stock or would round be easier???



Any help would be good thanks

Gerhard

Guernsey
Channel Islands

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2011, 12:00:46 PM »
If you can get sq stock the right size then that would be quicker. You may also find that holding it in a splt bush which is bored to the accross corners distance easier than the 4-jaw as even when just using the same too screws the work can drift off centre after a few resets.

For M3 I should think 5 to 5.5mm square would look about right and maybe 1.5 to 2mm thick. At the time your engine would have been made its unlikely there were any standard thread forms in use as its pre Mr Whitworths time so go by what looks right. Teh nuts would be completely flat on the side against the casting/timber and have a slight chamfer on the other.

I think I have seen square headed stuff for sale, may have been on eof the german suppliers, I'll have a look later.

Jason

Offline krv3000

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2011, 04:53:54 PM »
HI dont no if this helps but old mecarno has sq nuts

Offline mklotz

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2011, 05:07:13 PM »
The rules of thumb I use...

Scale fastener dimensions

D = bolt major diameter
Across flats dimension of bolt hex head and matching nut = 1.5*D
Bolt head thickness = 0.7*D
Nut thickness = 0.9*D

Hex head is implied but I see no reason why they wouldn't be applicable to square.  They suggest that a 4.5 mm AF nut with a thickness of 2.7 mm would be about right for a 3 mm stud/bolt.
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Offline Gerhard Olivier

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2011, 06:03:20 AM »
Thanks for the stats chaps

I tried a bit of square bar 6mm in a bushing that I cut in half - in the 3 jaw chuck but it slipped and would not drill
Then I tried in the ER collect - a bit better but still slipped.  This is steel I got from B&Q probably cold rold stuff????

Will have to use the 4 jaw ( it is 5 inch diam ) and I find it a bit scary!!!

OR I could make 5-6 at a time out out brass round and just just part after I have cut the square edges ( I only have acces to round and sheet brass) If I leave a roung end to grip on I could re-chuck and part them easily enough

Will have to experiment a bit

Gerhard
Guernsey
Channel Islands

Offline NickG

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2011, 07:26:15 AM »
If you're careful you should manage in the 4 jaw I reckon. I never thogught of er collets, I needed to turn some square the other day, as you say, it's not gripping on much then though.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2011, 12:55:57 PM »
Interesting the sizes you came up with Marv as a standard M3 hex nut is 5.5mm AF, for ease of production 5mm may be the best option as square is avalible in that size.

What did you make the bush from? I find alloy teh best as being softer it grips the steel better. Rather than cut in half make 3 saw cuts equally spaced, one right through and the other two stopping just short of teh bore. This will require less chuck force to close down onto teh work.

A 5C square collet would be the ideal tool for the job.

Jason

Offline Gerhard Olivier

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2011, 03:03:58 PM »
Jason I made the bush by cutting a bit of brass in middle then cut 90degee grooves in both and put the 2 together it has a square hole- nicely centred!!!  I think the cold rold stuf is just to hard for such small diameters???? 

Im leaning toward buying thread bar and just making nuts -and forget the nut and bolt idea!!!


Gerhard
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Channel Islands

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2011, 03:23:33 PM »
Buy some decent leaded bright mild steel, it will cut like butter or just free cutting steel like EN1A, most of the model engineering suppliers will have this in imperial sizes, 3/16" should be about OK on M3

Also studding is not an ideal fixing, if you do got that route then just cut a thread onto then ends of some 3mm round bar. You can then either just have a nut on either end or run a nut onto the thread, silversolder it on and then back in the lateh to take a skim off the "bolt" head.

And the easy way out http://www.modellbauschrauben.de/shop_detail.php?gruppid=38
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 03:27:54 PM by Jasonb »

Offline mklotz

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2011, 03:33:05 PM »
This site...

http://www.engineersedge.com/square_nut.htm

may be helpful.  Note that for bolts >= 0.75 diameter, the nut is 1.5 times diameter.  Also note that for the larger nuts, the thickness approximates 0.9 of the diameter.
Regards, Marv

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Offline Anzaniste

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2011, 02:45:49 PM »
Why not make 'em out of strip of the appropriate size. Drill and tap in a long length then slit them apart?
Scrooby, 1 mile south of Gods own County.

Offline bambuko

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2011, 04:05:14 PM »
According to BS, EN, ISO etc  ::)
M2.5 is 5mm AF
M3 is is 5.5mm AF
Thickness for both is 1.6mm
Easiest thing to do is square stock in square collet?

Offline mardtrp

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2011, 05:06:15 PM »
Here's a quick example of what your after, just do a google for coachbolts and square nuts.

http://www.ibuonline.com/productdetail/Carriage-Bolt-with-Square-Nut/4cb43ca68906a88337d1280c

For smaller square nuts using threads of 8-10 or 12 BA, please send me a private message, as I have made a machine that can do this, I can send pics if it if required, it's easy to make. The square brass required to make these nuts, is an over the counter store bought item as well.

mark

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2011, 10:48:02 PM »
Gerhard,

A little larger size than you require, these are the smallest roofing bolts that my favourite supplier does. But I do know that in some places they go down to 5mm thread.

At this sort of price, you keep the 200 nuts and throw away the rest.

http://www.leofixings.com/productdetails.aspx?menulevel=2&level=2&catcode=60&hdnGroupCode=653&hdnProdCode=FzfGdHydyZM=#tdimg

Or 4mm Stainless

http://www.boltmeup.com/m4-stainless-steel-square-nuts-x-10-pack-4mm-sq-nuts-8523-p.asp



Bogs
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 10:52:25 PM by bogstandard »
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Offline mardtrp

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2011, 11:18:20 PM »
Not quite the type of nut he would need, the ones you put up, are plain flat nuts.

The old style nuts or coach bolt nuts, have an angled shape to the top of the nut, not just straight across flat. This made you use one side for the top only, that way the flat side was to the join.

You can see the difference in the nuts, even as small as what he's after.

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2011, 02:34:15 AM »
Chamfered top nuts will look better as I said at the start of this thread. I have just picked up 6m of small square stainless for a friend so he can make all the nuts & bolts for his 7 1/4g locomotion. This is the look to aim for though the polished brass is too blingy for my likeing and they are a bit large.





J

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2011, 03:49:01 AM »
To me the ones shown look totally false and too blingyfied. Artistic licence I suppose.

When I used to study old engines, they were just a flat plate with the top and bottom of the corners chamfered to stop them digging in, with a hole thru them. The only time I saw any that were like the ones shown were when they were used mainly for decoration. A lot of the time they weren't even square, but sort of parallelogram shaped. They were just cut from strip metal, most probably with a cold chisel.

It wasn't until Joey Whitworth came along in the 1840's and standardised screw threading did you get any sort of semblance of a standard and things were made to all look and act the same. Before that, they were usually being hand made, with the nut being made to fit the thread on the bolt, individually, and so things didn't look so regimented.

I personally reckon Gerhards model would have been from that 'hand made' sort of era, not the regimented way the later Victorians did it.

If you are still having trouble Gerhard, email me a sketch with the dimensions you require, and what material you want them out of, and I can easily knock out a few dozen flat plate nuts for you. I have all the correct holding gear to cater with square section. But you will need to do all the deburring yourself, they will just be parted off at the correct thickness you will most probably have to run a tap thru them again as well, just to clean up the threads after parting off.


Bogs
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Offline Gerhard Olivier

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2011, 01:47:55 PM »
Hi All

Back home again so can start again

Bogs - thanks for the kind offer but I would like to at least try to make them myself.

My plan is to take 8mm Brass rod in the ER32 collet and drill and thread on the lathe - then in the spindex still Er32 collet mill 4 sides flat on the mill.   
Then back to lathe and part off. If I do 4 in 1 go it should be stiff enough to part off and wont take that long???? 

That should work OR am I missing somthing??????


Gerhard
Guernsey
Channel Islands

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2011, 02:02:13 PM »
That should work fine.

What I often do with things like this is work both ends of the bar at once or even both ends of two pieces, saves having to go back and forth quite so often, so you would be working in batches of 8, 16 etc.

A thin parting tool is useful for jobs like this as there is less waste.

J

Offline Gerhard Olivier

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2011, 03:36:37 PM »
Everybody thanks for the help

Don them as descibed above - used 3 pieces double ended as Jason sugested

Worked a treat - didnot even take very long.



Thanks again

Gerhard
Guernsey
Channel Islands

Offline John Hill

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2011, 07:33:13 PM »
Older nuts were bigger for the same internal diameter, for example, two nuts on an old piece of equipment right here are about 5/8"  and slightly more than 1/2" though they fit the same thread.    They difference is very obvious.



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Offline krv3000

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2011, 09:31:20 AM »
HI I came a cros this while surfing the net it sergested making a collet this entalde drilling out sum stock the same di as the sqer bare turn down the outer di to leeve a wall thiknes of 5 mm  over all lenth is determand by the lenth of the jors of your three jaw chuck then put a split in the collet say 1.5 mm then chuck the hole lot up you only need to undo the chuck just a nuff to let the sqer stock to be slid out I hope this macks sence  regards  from bob

Offline saw

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Re: Square Bolts
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2011, 12:05:59 PM »
Looking good  :thumbup:
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