Workbench, height, timber size etc

[Gazz292]

Planning my conversion of the garage into my workshop in my head, i have a few things that are best answered by people who have been there, done it etc.

i plan to make up a sturdy wooden workbench to go along one wall of the garage, from the door at the front you shove a car through to the door in the side you walk through from the garden, about 12 feet i guess, leaving a little room for the up and over door to operate without sweeping what ever tool is positioned nearest the end off.

I hope to have this bench purely for metal working tools, first the lathe im getting tommorow (real bull 7x14) my little bench mounted pillar drill, bench grinder, and one day a mini mill.
so i want to make it out of something that will be sturdy and not wobble about when i'm using the machines, but not be so over sturdy i'm spending more than i need to, i can bolt it to the wall no problems, and could bolt it to the floor if i really have to.

would 6 x 4 inch timbers be overkill? thinking i want a leg front and back at either end (i've been told that bit is importiant 
then a pair of legs ever so many feet?? with a set of legs (4) idealy directly under where the lathe will go, and try to put a pair of legs under the drill, and where the mill would go?
i have woodworking toold (table saw,compound mitre saw, router table and handheld router, biscuit joiner etc)
but what would be the optimum joints,

and should i run cross braces?

And before i start cutting anything, is there an ideal height for a lathe to be at? i have arthritis, so i know i'll be sitting down to use it a lot, but i can make the chair any height, for quick jobs i'd use it standing, so dont want to set it too low,
i read somewhere about setting a bench grinder at elbow height,

the bench top will be an old length of kitchen worktop, nice and heavy and thick (sounds like how my GF describes me
think it's 2 foot 6 deep, does that sound deep enough? too deep, just right etc?

[bp]

Good questions Gazz, and really important to get about right....don't get too anal about it though.
Here's my thoughts, if you have a vice which you intend to use for sawing and/or filing, the top of the vice jaws need to be at about your elbow height when you are standing comfortably upright.
According to Guy Lautard in his "Machinists Bedside Reader" the "....milling machine should be mounted so that the nose of the spindle is at "chest height"....say about 6" below your chin".  My Mini Mill (Sieg X2) is mounted on a table which is about 30" high, I reckon its about 9" to 12" too low, after a short period of milling I get a sore back.
My C3 lathe (Sieg 7 x 14) is mounted on a bench which puts the handles at about my elbow height and is very comfortable to stand at for long periods of time.  Also, when locating the lathe leave more than enough room to get at the changewheels at the left hand end.   I too suffer from arthritis and have had a knee replacement, all as a result of an old motorcycling injury.
The more solid you can make the bench, the better.  If it was up to me I'd bolt it to both wall and floor.  My current lathe bench is I believe too wide there is about 12" behind the chip shield which gets full of grot, and is fairly awkward to get at to keep cleanish.
As to structure, I think that it would be better to have 4" x 2" legs, 6" x 4" might be a bit OTT.  Try and get bench top supports (legs) underneath the heavy items (lathe and mill) at the front and back of the bench.  Also try and put your vice directly over a leg.  If you have to do any hammering in the vice the last thing you want is for it to be bouncing around.  Take the opportunity to fill up the underbench space with some solid drawers, ask me how I know!!
Best of luck!!
cheers
Bill Pudney

[foozer]

Using a wall as a back bench support is ???.  Whatever noise is generated upon the bench will travel to the wall, if the Bride happens to be on the other side. . .  Hitting upon the vice will also travel to the wall and cause the hanging items to bounce about.

A free standing bench if possible eliminates the reverberating sound of "What are you doing in there!!!  You gonna wake the baby"

4 X 6  might be a bit of overkill. Did a 12 footer 3 foot deep 2 X 4's with 2 X 6 legs, 3/4 ply top covered by 3/16 steel top. Holds whatever I can put on it.

Robert

[Gazz292]

you know, i was just thinking about the noise being transmitted through the wall, living room is the other side where the computer is set up and the rats have their cage, so not only would i have the GF moaning about the noise, the rats would be annoyed at me disturbing their sleep (but it's ok for them to wake me up chasing each other around the cage at 5am, which is when they are most active)

vibrations, it's a double brick wall with a cavity, but i can imagine some vibrations would make it through, but hopefully not like when i was hammering a couple of nails in the bedroom wall, only bit of wall that is studwork and plasterboard, other side is the kitchen, and the plate rack was right where i was hammering, it took 2 plates being launched off the rack to alert me to how much the wall was moving as i hit the nails.

will do it in 4 x 2 then, and will deffinately be putting legs under each machine, and the vise will go at the end, and will have a double leg under it,
a bit of cross bracing, and i'll box in 3 sides, loads of shelves and drawers, and front sliding panels, so if i make it solid enough, just floor bolts should be enough.

[Jonny]

Swings and roundabouts here. If free standing and theres a vice going on you will need another pair of hands chasing it around the workshop.

Another problem wouldnt be vibration through the wall but noise from the actual wooden bench. Woods flex and thats what creates the vibration and noise. Even a compressor underneath amplifies the noise.
A belt driven! RF25 mounted on such a bench became unbearable. Wooden 4" sq uprights and several 8"x4" on top bolted to floor and rear wall. Mill was bolted to tops.
Similar noise again with 4x2" with contiboard tops.

Mill mounted on a steel frame 30x30x5 RSA with just two front legs rawl bolted to wall was silent. It will only get noisy when theres movement or not solid rawl bolted against a wall.
If looking at 12ft long, an impact at one point would be spread over the length. RSA is better for noise than SHS presently using but still very good topped off with thin cheap kitchen work surface.

[j45on]

Dont forget to take in to account storage when building your bench or knee space for sitting down
I wish I had planed my benches a bit better 

[Gazz292]

The worktop will be a 20 odd year old piece of kitchen worktop, very heavy and solid (the new stuff i got to replace it weighs a quarter of the old stuff) plus a sturdy frame,

i think i'll bolt it to the wall anyways, stuff the noise that gets transmitted through, better to have a very rigid bench i think.

deffo planning lots of storage underneath, drawers, cupboards, a pull out slidey thing to use as a doodle board.... i mean planning table, all made to hopefully keep as much swarf out as i can,

i just need to find some reasonably priced 2 x 4's now, and get making sawdust.

[bigmini]

Using a wall as a back bench support is ???.  Whatever noise is generated upon the bench will travel to the wall, if the Bride happens to be on the other side. . .  Hitting upon the vice will also travel to the wall and cause the hanging items to bounce about.

A free standing bench if possible eliminates the reverberating sound of "What are you doing in there!!!  You gonna wake the baby"

4 X 6  might be a bit of overkill. Did a 12 footer 3 foot deep 2 X 4's with 2 X 6 legs, 3/4 ply top covered by 3/16 steel top. Holds whatever I can put on it.

Robert

My father lined the cavity of his workshop wall with egg cartons to try to kill noise transmitted to the house.

The fire brigade were not impressed...

[Gazz292]

I've had me lathe for 2 days now, and have only just got it out of the boot of the car, it's now in the middle of the living room floor, wonder how long i can get away with that 

Spent the last couple of days sorting the garage out, clearing all the rubbish out, then wire brushing the walls as the last person who owned this house had painted them yellow with what i presume is proper maisonary paint, as it's stuck to the bricks really well, but then painted over with white emulsion, which flakes off like a bad case of dandruff.

So 3 coats of white wall paint later, i have the walls looking brighter, if i had the money i'd have covered the walls with 50mm slabs of kingspan insulation backed plaster board, but i dont, so painted bricks it is, makes it easier to put heavy things on the walls tho, even if the bricks are horrible, 3 different types, one splits the second the drill touches it, another type dosent seem to be bonded to the cement, and a grey brick with some metal content, sparks when drilling and is extremely hard, takes a while with the sds drill to get a hole in those.

The garage door will get a layer of kingspan type insulation, but not untill i can tow the trailer with me car, as no way to get a couple of 8x6 sheets in a smart car... tho i will be getting offcuts, but dont fancy a jigsaw of 50 pieces to cover the door.

Then got some paint on the floor, and it looks a million times better than it ever has, i had to scrape up ferret keeping magazined that were glued to the floor with what looks like epoxy resin, last bloke bred fettets here, and had a gun dog that lived in the garage 

Anyhoo, the photo attatched is from the side door, showing about half the length of the garage, the metal working tools bench will be going on the right hand wall, it' about 8 foot long, not 12 as i guestimated it, i must have been using the willy measrument scale on me tape (6 inches shown is really 3 inches 

The left hand wall will have another bench. and that'll have me woodworking machines on it, a couple of new power circuits run through an emergancy stop button, with slave emergancy stop buttons near the tools, i'll also run the air line along the front of the bench with connectors near the machines,

but before any of that, i have to wait till the floor pain dries, go round the walls and touch up where i caught them with the roller, move me tool chest, table saw, bench on wheels etc onto the painted side, and paint the rest of the floor, and if i have any left over, i'll paint the 2 little rooms i have at the end of the garage, one used to the the bog and other a coal hole, make very handy storage rooms for tools, the compressor, and atm wood, but hopefully i'll soon have bits of metal added to that room,

But for now i need to rest, as i have done way too much and overdone it as usual, so now my back is killing me, my arms feel like thay have been run over, and my legs are fuzzy from pins and needles,

[foozer]

Dark floor hides sin and everything else that gets dropped

Be a home away from home in no time

Robert

[Gazz292]

i could have gone for blood red for the floor paint, to hide when i cut my self, but the grey was half price, so i got that, i'm sure i'll have scuffed and chipped the paint in no time tho,

i wish i could get rid of the darn up and over door mechanism, really protrudes into where i want the benches, but unless i can find a really really cheap roller type door, i'm stuck with it,

[foozer]

Gotta work with what ya have, so ah where is the trash can going to be, the broom, dustpan,  You know those things you'll be using all the time, but never given much thought to as easy access for clean up. 

Robert

[Swarfing]

Gaz

Make yourself a good old fashioned pair of swing doors that you could put 50 pieces of insulation in? i can not wait to get rid of my up and over and they will seal better keeping the heat in.

[HS93]

it's not how high the workbench it is how high the chuck and handwheels are you need to go and stand by a few lathes or put yours up on blocks and see what is a good working hight, I could tell you my bench hight and otheres could tell you theres but it is what is comfortable to use with a small lath as you may be stood for hourd you dont want to be bending down (you would if you had my lath hight) it also depens of if you are having duck boards or standing on the concreat   OH and how tall you are, or not in my case.

Peter

[MrFluffy]

Don't know if this helps but Ive made quick temporary(!) bench installs in most of my workshops by getting hollow breeze blocks but in a pillar configuration (theyre a block tube/oblong technically), and just stacking them up in a pile either end and filling up the through hole inside with rebar and concrete. I drill the wall and put some ties into that too. They're very robust and quicker than timber (if you have a mixer to hand, which we always do).
For sitting on top of the blockwork a cross piece of timber to pad them a little from shock and for the top itself I can often lay my hands on old joists (250mm x 100's are nice) and topped off with some ply.

I usually end up taking them back out years later when I move from the property. I tend to leave the blocks concreted in still as a handy bit for the next owner to set his bench up on  

[Gazz292]

going to be doing my benches out of timber, as i'll probably change my mind a few times down the line and do a remodel, easier to do without having to knock down and re-build cement work i guess.

Not got much else done really, did far too much before and my joints and bones are making me pay for it, but i did get the other half of the floor painted, and have just been around the edges with a paintbrush cable tied to a pole (to save me bending down more than i need to)

measured it all up and will start planning where to put things,
Left hand side is for metal tools, right hand side for wood tools, with space under the right benches for that darn table saw to be shoved for storage,
i think i'll move the retractable air hose, wonder if i could be clever and fix it to the garage door, on a flexiable hose feeding it of course, so it's able to be pulled into the workshop when i want to use it, but open the door, and it can be pulled outside to air up tyres.

i am thinking of putting a small sink in the far end, left hand side in the pic below, theres a cold water pipe that runs thru the garage for the garden tap (which is the other side of the side door, so near the end of the garage anyway), and by the left hand side of the garage outside, runs some more of that strip drains stuff like at the front door... plus there's already a hole thru the bricks about 4 inches off the floor, an old tumble drier vent, stuffed with expanding foam, so 2 seconds and i can have that bored out for the waste pipe.

it's really calling out for a sink to go there, and it'd keep the GF happier than me traipsing thru the house with mucky hands, she even hates my swarfega pump being in the bathroom,
if that's not in there, she can have more room for her shampoos and other strange smelling bottles of stuff wimin seem unable to shower without  lol

[JimM]

It's all looking great so far, wish I'd had a blank canvas to work from.

If you can fit a sink in, I'd definitely do it - you know you'll only regret it in future if you dont. I'd try and get some sort of under counter mounted one, that way you can put a piece of worktop over it and increase the work area when the sink's not needed

Also I know you've already covered it but if there is any way you can get rid of the up and over door then do it - mine is the bain of my life. It's the only access to my garage which means all the cold air gets in whenever I open it, and the amount of dead space you have to leave around it is astonishing.

All the best

Jim

[Gazz292]

I'm slowly making progress,

I still havent fitted the towbar to the smart, so no way i can get some wood home, but got a few quotes for some 2 x 4's, 21 meters worth, ranging from 40 squids to 26 squids, the cheapest was jacksons builders merchants at grantham, which is 40 miles from me, but handily my parents live there, and they were coming to nottingham to goto makro and costco at the weekend.

So i managed to persuade them to 'pop' 7 x 2.7 meter lengths of 2x4 timber in the car (they drive a vw touran, so it fitted in fully) and they dropped it off along with some more kitchen worktops from when they remodeled their kitchen.

Finally got round to making up the first bench today, nothing special, it's 2.5 meters long, 60cm deep, and 1 meter high, which is slightly lower than my elbow height, so my arms should be at a right angle when using the lathe.

I still have to clad the bench back and sides, put in shelving and drawers, sliding doors, then power sockets along the front for portable tools,
a row of sockets along the wall above the bench will be for the fixed tools, and they will go through an emergancy stop switch by the door, so i can press it as i leave and know all power is off to the fixed tools, i also plan to fit slave emergancy stop switches near the machines, but need to source some cheap 30 amp contactors to do that,

And then i have another bench to build, but need more wood first, and there's still some more of the first bench to build, i'm going to go at an angle accross the garage door about halfway, and will put the bench grinder there,
no car is ever coming in this garage again that's for sure... infact i dont think i've ever had one in it, couple of motorbikes back when my joints were free enough to allow me to swing me leg over 

[Gazz292]

Well, i havent done much lately, been plauged by kidney stones for the past week or so (actually got the first pains on the way home with the lathe)

i have been able to fit the tow bar to the smart car at last, and now have me trailer home, brought it back from my parents with a load of my other tools in it, unfortunately they are mostly wood working tools, tho i do have an abrasive chop saw amoungst them and my little bench grinder with polishing mop on one side and a well worn grinding wheel on the other.

Went to the newark autojumble this sunday, got a few little toys, micrometer, engineers square, reel of emery cloth, automatic centre punch, few bits of delrin and alli bar, air cut off disc thingy and so on.
and for some reason i splashed £2.50 on a set of drills in a plastic round case thing.... needed some new uns for fitting the towbar, snapped 2, and bent 3 of them, when will i learn.

But i could easily have spent hundereds there if i had it, quite a few stalls selling lathe tools and accessories, so i had a good drool over them,
mind half the bits are a tad too large for a mini lathe, parting tool that's mounted on a 1 and a half inch square holder and such like,
saw just how big a QCTP for a full size lathe is, deffo need a mini one for a mini lathe, i think RDG tools does a nice one, but he makes them himself, so you can only get the tool holders from him... tho i guess most people with a milling machine can knock some out pretty quick using chunks of metal from the scrap box.

Anyweay, hopefully my next post will be saying i've built the other workbench, finished the first off, done the electrics and eventually have the lathe bolted to the workbench and i can begin to use it... if my body dosent try and stop me again that is.

[No1_sonuk]

I'm currently using old kitchen cabinets and worktop in my shop.
Not sure how they'll stand up to an X3 though...

[marky123]

Hello
I'm making an angle iron stand for a minimill
Shall I build it so I can bolt a couple of 2' paving slabs under the top to 'absorb vibration' or is that a load of pony?
Cheers.
MARK
 

[marfaguy]

 Suppose it's a bit late now but way back when I remember reading about workbench design ( for woodworking)  
the author's advise for workbench height  was to stand up straight ( don't slouch) but relaxed, then with arms relaxed
turn your hands so your palms are more or less parallel to the floor. Have somebody measure the distance from the
floor to your palms. Make the workbench this height. My height was/is 32". I always built my work surfaces to that
height and it felt comfortable. I changed it a bit though for my roll around where my lathe and mill are currently mounted.
I've got an arthritic left hip so I knew I wouldn't be able to comfortably stay standing for long periods of time like I did when
I did cabinetry professionally. So after looking around at some office type chairs I opted to raise the height about 3".
Seems to work pretty well with my Micro mark mini mill and 7x16" lathe. Working while standing is OK and sitting in the
office chair as high as it will go is still fairly comfortable and lets me see/ work everything I need to.

 I thought about going the other way, i.e. going with a desk type height ( usually about 25"-27") or possibly lower
then try and work almost exclusively while seated but I think that would cause more scrunching over/ while standing
thereby stressing the lower back. And I think you'd be constantly standing up to change end mills/collets or work the z axis.

edited to clean up some grammar.

[marfaguy]

Hello
I'm making an angle iron stand for a minimill
Shall I build it so I can bolt a couple of 2' paving slabs under the top to 'absorb vibration' or is that a load of pony?
Cheers.
MARK
 

Hi Mark,
I doubt adding weight would make much difference. Having the surface very flat is probably more important and or bolting it down. Although
I've currently got mine bolted down to a roll around cart. I'm probably going to change that though.

You may want to start a new thread since posting to this one may not get as many eyes on your question.

[marky123]

Hiya
I've started anyway.I've measured the top wrong of course,I didnt allow for the thickness of the angle so the uprights will have to weld to the outside of the top but I will weld the bottom crossmembers with enough space to drop a couple of slabs in.A friend and I picked the miller up today,we just managed to get it in the garage and on the workbench with the wheelbarrow and some planks.phew...

[Gazz292]

Well, my garage to workshop project has stalled for a bit,
i've got one bit of worktop screwed to the frame, me bench grinder bolted down at the end, and a load of woodworking tools dumped on the rest of the bench,

i got the money to buy the next batch of 2x4's, have fitted the towbar to the smart and have the trailer here, i just need to find a radial tuit.

However i decided to beging getting the motorhome out of hibernation, filled the water tank up, turned on the pump, and out splurts water from the top of the calorifier (20 litre hot water cylinder, heated by the engine as we drive, eberspacher of electric)

thought it was the immersion heater seal, but nope, water was coming out 5 cracks in the solder ring... and upon taking the calorifier out, i found the insulation split and held appart by an inch 

Figured out whats happened, i drain the system down every november, i start at the calorifier, turning the pressure relief valve till is stays open, then i go round opening the taps, get the airline adaptor, blow the pipes through.

i found the knob of the valve had parted from the shaft (turning it causes the knob to ride up a wedge, which pulls on the shaft connected to the valve seat, you have to do that occasionaly to dislodge any limescale that gets trapped in the valve causing it to weap)


anyhoo, i rekon the knob came off the shaft as soon as i turned around from setting it to open, and thus the calorifier was practicaly full of water over winter, and she froze and expanded a bit,

the main seams solder joints are cracked, and apparantly it's silver solder, the company that made it for me said they can't repair it, as it will never get certified again, as it's classed as a pressure vessle, only 3 to 4 bar, but the water in it is upto 95 degrees C, and is seperated from my head when in bed by a bit of 12mm ply, so i dont want to risk a repair even if i could.

So the bank of mum and dad has extended my borrowing again, and a new calorifier tank is on order, will take 3 weeks as it's a special order (tank is vertical, most are horizontal to go under a bed, has 2 heating coils, this size usually only has one and so on)

And whilst checking the rest of the water pipes, i discovered the shower wall liner had parted from the tray, i had a feeling it would, your supposed to use some MEK based stuff with a filler in it to weld the 2 together, but when i got them (last year, to replace a cracked tray) i was told mek had just been made illegal, so they couldent sell me any of the stuff,
looking at heat welding it now, but not 100% sure hwat plastic it is, so even that isnt going to be an easy task.