Author Topic: insight into V4 design and operation  (Read 21908 times)

Offline dbvandy

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insight into V4 design and operation
« on: March 06, 2011, 10:57:43 PM »
Hello all!

Now that I have the Webster complete (http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4413.0)  and the Otto running (http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4425.0), I am looking toward the next project:  designing a V4 OHC from the ground up.

I want it to be:
completely open design with ball bearings on the crank and cams
belt driven and out of bar stock
compact as possible
square 1 inch bore 1 inch stroke
fork and blade connecting rod
90 degree V
CDI ignition
single carb (or vapor tank)

I have a vision of what I want and will start drawing it up in solidworks soon, but what I don't know is this...  timing of the pistons and firing order.  Cams will take care of themselves when the engine is setup.  I plan to model it off the Otto engine cylinder.

Any insight or plans to give me some ideas would be appreciated...

Thanks guys!

Doug
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 09:00:17 AM by dbvandy »
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline jim

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2011, 11:49:35 PM »
good luck, another thread i'll be following closely
if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline andyf

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2011, 03:18:17 AM »
I've never owned a V4 car, but in the dim and distant past the firing order on my flat four Jowett Javelin was the same as a straight four: 1-3-4-2. My wife's 1970s VW Beetle was the same. There doesn't seem to be any reason why a V4 should differ.

I'm looking forward to watching your progress; on your current form it should be running before the end of the month.

Andy.
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline DavidA

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2011, 07:21:29 AM »
Doug,

...completely open design with ball bearings on the crank and cams...

That will make for very a interesting crankshaft.

I remember the days when replacing the roller bearing big end on a single cylinder bike engine meant much fiddling with pressed taper fits on the crank - pin and the webs.

Dave.

Offline cuog

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2011, 11:18:40 AM »
I've never owned a V4 car, but in the dim and distant past the firing order on my flat four Jowett Javelin was the same as a straight four: 1-3-4-2. My wife's 1970s VW Beetle was the same. There doesn't seem to be any reason why a V4 should differ.

I'm looking forward to watching your progress; on your current form it should be running before the end of the month.

Andy.

ACVW firing order is 1-4-3-2(both cylinders on each head fire one after the other then it goes to the other head)

Offline andyf

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2011, 12:08:33 PM »
ACVW firing order is 1-4-3-2(both cylinders on each head fire one after the other then it goes to the other head)

Thanks for the correction, Cuog. My only excuse is the passage of 40 + years since the Javelin, which was really 1-3-2-4, and 30 years for the VW, which as you rightly say was 1-4-3-2.
 :doh: Should have kept my mouth shut!
Andy 
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline cuog

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2011, 12:49:43 PM »
No worries, you'll notice I said nothing about the Javelin's firing order :wack:  I don't know the first thing about the car.   :poke:

Offline dbvandy

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2011, 01:19:07 PM »
Doug,

...completely open design with ball bearings on the crank and cams...

That will make for very a interesting crankshaft.

I remember the days when replacing the roller bearing big end on a single cylinder bike engine meant much fiddling with pressed taper fits on the crank - pin and the webs.

Dave.

I think I am going to incorporate the spinning mass with the crank like a two stroke seadoo.  The crank pins will be mounted directly to the two flywheels with bearing, small cam pullet and another bearing in between.  I think I am going to do CDI ignition with lossy spark so I only need two coils and two CDI's.

Doug
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 01:20:56 PM by dbvandy »
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline John Hill

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2011, 07:12:12 PM »
I've never owned a V4 car, but in the dim and distant past the firing order on my flat four Jowett Javelin was the same as a straight four: 1-3-4-2. My wife's 1970s VW Beetle was the same. There doesn't seem to be any reason why a V4 should differ.

I'm looking forward to watching your progress; on your current form it should be running before the end of the month.

Andy.

ACVW firing order is 1-4-3-2(both cylinders on each head fire one after the other then it goes to the other head)

Now I am confused,  how did they number the cylinders? :doh:
From the den of The Artful Bodger

Offline cuog

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2011, 10:44:48 AM »
I've never owned a V4 car, but in the dim and distant past the firing order on my flat four Jowett Javelin was the same as a straight four: 1-3-4-2. My wife's 1970s VW Beetle was the same. There doesn't seem to be any reason why a V4 should differ.

I'm looking forward to watching your progress; on your current form it should be running before the end of the month.

Andy.

ACVW firing order is 1-4-3-2(both cylinders on each head fire one after the other then it goes to the other head)

Now I am confused,  how did they number the cylinders? :doh:

front of car
3 0--||--0 1
4 0--||--0 2
back of car

Offline andyf

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2011, 12:16:58 PM »
ACVW firing order is 1-4-3-2(both cylinders on each head fire one after the other then it goes to the other head)

Now I am confused,  how did they number the cylinders? :doh:

front of car
3 0--||--0 1
4 0--||--0 2
back of car

Now I'm confused too  :scratch: . Applying 1-4-3-2 to that diagram wouldn't give you "both cylinders on each head fire one after the other then it goes to the other head".
On my Javelin, the cylinders were numbered in the same order as their respective big ends were in on the crankshaft. It was as if you had taken a straight four and made it into a flat four by swinging cylinders 1 and 3 to one side and 2 and 4 to the other side.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline foozer

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2011, 01:20:10 PM »
front of car
2 0--||--0 1
4 0--||--0 3
back of car


Looks better, just half of a V8

Robert
Ignorance is Bliss, thus I aim for Perfection

Offline cuog

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2011, 03:45:05 PM »
VW likes to be erm different.  Part of the reasoning for this is simplicity, because of the VW firing order they need a simpler to make camshaft: Since opposing cylinders are 180deg out of rotation with one another they can use the same lobe of the cam reducing the number of lobes that must be machined in half. 

Here's a photo of the crankshaft:


And some engine tins with the cylinder numbers on it:


The 1/2 side should be easily readable at least. 


While it would be cool to turn this into a 90deg V it would require more work since you couldn't just use a flat crank like the VW and you would have more lobes on the crank.  If you were to use a flat crank you would get a little bit of that harley surging from firing at odd fractions of a rotation instead of every 90deg. 

Some more info on the workings of the silly little VW: http://www.vct2.nl/vwtech/Pages/How%20Engine%20Works/How%20Components%20work/How%20the%20Boxer%20Engine%20Works.htm

Using the VW diagram to fire on the opposing head each time you would need a firing order of 1-3-2-4

To the OP sorry to derail your thread, I hope some of this information is at least useful to you in some way. 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 03:51:46 PM by cuog »

Offline cuog

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2011, 03:54:16 PM »
front of car
3 0--||--0 1
4 0--||--0 2
back of car

Now I'm confused too  :scratch: . Applying 1-4-3-2 to that diagram wouldn't give you "both cylinders on each head fire one after the other then it goes to the other head".

Andy

Would it make more sense if I told you the firing order was 4-3-2-1?

Offline andyf

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2011, 02:17:47 AM »
Yes, Cuog. 
:lol: :lol: I'm laughing at myself, not you!

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

MrFluffy

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2011, 02:34:49 PM »
Honda made a pearler of a v4 for one of their road bikes and evolved it over the years if looking at that might give you ideas. The only real issues which marred it were camchain problems (which lots of honda's of the period seemed to suffer from.) its a square layout 90' V4 with firing order 1-2-4-3, with firing intervals of  180/270/180/90 which produces a unique exhaust note.
http://www.wemoto.com/wem/pic/vfr800engcut02.jpg

Theres also the vmax which was one of the big power narrow angle v4 yamaha's, it had cylinders from each bank on a common conrod, and tuners seemed to be building plenty of them with 1500cc conversions and superchargers and stuff to suspect it was quite a solid design ;)
Firing order was 1-3-2-4, with 1 being front left and 2 being front right...
http://logan.com/lancair/2008.vmax/starvmax.crank.cylinder.left.rear.jpg

Suzuki made a equivalent to the vmax with a maduira, only they only sold it for two years so...

Aprillia entered the fold with their RSV4 :-
http://www.superbike.co.uk/imageBank/r/RSV4_Fact%20motore%2007.jpg

There was also a 2 stroke yamaha racer with a v4 layout, but because of using the crankcase as a compression stage, it uses two cranks with a split axis to reduce engine width, as each pot would require a dedicated crankcase and increase a single crank designs width to that of a inline four. And compactness was everything on a gp bike... Plus I think it and the NR500 v4's were both big bang engines (all cylinders firing at the same time).

In the car world ford made a v4 unit for the british market transits. But I dont think the rest of the world saw much of that design :)

Hope it triggers off some ideas or thoughts...

Offline dbvandy

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2011, 12:46:02 PM »
Honda made a pearler of a v4 for one of their road bikes and evolved it over the years if looking at that might give you ideas. The only real issues which marred it were camchain problems (which lots of honda's of the period seemed to suffer from.) its a square layout 90' V4 with firing order 1-2-4-3, with firing intervals of  180/270/180/90 which produces a unique exhaust note.
http://www.wemoto.com/wem/pic/vfr800engcut02.jpg


Thanks for the info...  I thought I KNEW I would be doing a 180 opposed crank, but Honda seems to know how to do it with an inline crank...  Sure would make the build easier...

I have an 84 vf700S Honda Sabre in the garage right now, kinda the inspiration for the motor, maybe I will do some research on the crank and timing...

Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline radfordc

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2011, 04:05:46 PM »
front of car
2 0--||--0 1
4 0--||--0 3
back of car


Looks better, just half of a V8

Robert

Better?  Nope...wrong.  CUOG had it right


Offline Bryan

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2011, 06:58:41 PM »
I have some experience with Guzzi V twins. As I understand it, the main advantage of a V layout - especially 90 deg - is that you get perfect primary balance with a common crankpin (light & compact). When one piston is stopped dead, the other is at maximum velocity. This gives a smooth engine, despite the power strokes being uneven. Ducati is another maker to exploit this principle.

Flat motors are a different bowl of sauerkraut. They have perfect secondary balance because the power strokes are even, but the primary balance is bad. A Beemer twin has a totally different sound and feel from a Guzzi. I know which I'd rather throw a leg over.

Don't know much about V4s, since two is the correct number of cylinders for a motorcycle.  :poke:




Offline bigmini

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2011, 07:12:28 PM »
I have some experience with Guzzi V twins. As I understand it, the main advantage of a V layout - especially 90 deg - is that you get perfect primary balance with a common crankpin (light & compact). When one piston is stopped dead, the other is at maximum velocity. This gives a smooth engine, despite the power strokes being uneven. Ducati is another maker to exploit this principle.

Flat motors are a different bowl of sauerkraut. They have perfect secondary balance because the power strokes are even, but the primary balance is bad. A Beemer twin has a totally different sound and feel from a Guzzi. I know which I'd rather throw a leg over.

Don't know much about V4s, since two is the correct number of cylinders for a motorcycle.  :poke:





Greetings from a fellow Guzzista :beer:

You could use this arrangement in a V4 with a 180° two throw crank. Each pair of cylinders mounted on a common crank pin and therefore firing 90° apart. With the 180° crank and the right firing order, you'd get evenly spaced firing intervals, and perfect primary balance (for each pair) as well  as  perfect secondary balance (for the lot).

The crankshaft would be easier to make too, being all  in one plane.

Offline RichardShute

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2011, 02:32:37 PM »
I have some experience with Guzzi V twins. As I understand it, the main advantage of a V layout - especially 90 deg - is that you get perfect primary balance with a common crankpin (light & compact). When one piston is stopped dead, the other is at maximum velocity. This gives a smooth engine, despite the power strokes being uneven. Ducati is another maker to exploit this principle.

Flat motors are a different bowl of sauerkraut. They have perfect secondary balance because the power strokes are even, but the primary balance is bad. A Beemer twin has a totally different sound and feel from a Guzzi. I know which I'd rather throw a leg over.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but that's almost completely wrong. Flat twins have pretty well perfect primary balance because the pistons are moving in opposite directions at the same velocity and hence their accelerations (out of balance forces) exactly cancel out. Con-rod motions do not cancel exactly and give rise to secondary OOB forces which can be largely mitigated with crank balance weights.

Ninety degree vee twins can have very good primary balance, but not perfect. This is because the sinusoidal motion of the crank balance weights does/can not exactly match the linear motion of the pistons and the forces due to transverse motion of one con-rod interact with the linear vibrations of the other.

Even power pulses has no direct bearing as such on either primary or secondary balance forces, but does have an effect on the perceived smoothness of an engine I agree. Typically, one decides on the configuration based on balance and structural design criteria and then sets the firing order to get even firing pulses. Firing pulses can have a significant effect on overal engine vibration, particularly in setting up resonances, but this is not the same as primary or secondary balance issues. Those would be present even if the engine were driven round with the plugs out, which is indeed a now redundant means of assessing and measuring balance.

All the above also ignores rotational/torsional balance which is not insignificant and one reason why balance shafts if used invariably run in the reverse direction to the crank.
If you want a decent starting text on the subject try digging up a copy of An Introduction to the Mechanics of Machines by
Morrison & Crossland.

I do however agree that I'd much rather thrash a Guzzi round the lanes than try to keep a whip-iron Beemer beween the kerbs. MkII LeMans vs R90, a rather unfair contest perhaps, but it made an impression on me.

Richard
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 06:51:20 PM by RichardShute »
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Offline Bryan

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2011, 07:05:13 PM »
Clearly my understanding was poor. Thanks Richard for the explanation. My apologies for giving bad info.


Offline Kjelle

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2011, 04:37:03 AM »
MrFluffy, what about SAAB? And Lancia? Both V-4's, and the SAAB engine was in fact the Ford Germany V-4...

Sorry for the OT

Kjelle (who learnt to drive in a SAAB V-4, with column change)

Offline RichardShute

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2011, 06:29:49 AM »
Before I got round to digging out my copy of Tuning for Speed by Phil Irving (designer of the Vincent motorcycle), I found this extract on another forum. It relates only to singles, but is worthy of a read just for background.

http://archives.jampot.dk/Technical/Pistons_Springs_Valves/Single_cylinder_balancing__Extract_Tuning_for_Speed.pdf

Richard
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: insight into V4 design and operation
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2011, 01:22:45 AM »
Before I got round to digging out my copy of Tuning for Speed by Phil Irving (designer of the Vincent motorcycle), I found this extract on another forum. It relates only to singles, but is worthy of a read just for background.

http://archives.jampot.dk/Technical/Pistons_Springs_Valves/Single_cylinder_balancing__Extract_Tuning_for_Speed.pdf

Richard

very cool read... thanks for the info...

Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt