Author Topic: 90 degree V4 OHC  (Read 45815 times)

Offline dbvandy

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90 degree V4 OHC
« on: March 09, 2011, 10:53:39 AM »
Now that I have the Webster complete (http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4413.0)  and the Otto running (http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4425.0), I am looking toward the next project:  designing a V4 OHC from the ground up.

I have a good grasp of how to build and redesign an engine from others plans from proven designs, but now I want to design and build one of my own.  I plan to put the plans out for public consumption once I have it how I want it, but that might be 6 months + out.  One problem is that I have limited CAD skills so there will be a little learning curve there, but I am not so worried about that.

I have a vision of what I want and will document the process the best I can here.

This is what I have so far:





I want it to be:
completely open design with ball bearings on the crank and cams
belt driven and out of bar stock
clean, exposed, and compact as possible
square 1 inch bore 1 inch stroke
fork and blade connecting rod with roller bearings throughout
90 degree V4
CDI ignition
single carb (or vapor tank)

Should be an interesting journey...

More to come...
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2011, 03:57:49 AM »
I have started to layout the V4.  Man, this thing is going to be huge!  Maybe I will rethink the over head cam thing and go with push rods on a single central cam or two overhead cams with rockers and the cams inboard of the heads...  or...  a DOHC system on each bank with rockers to push the valves...  that would be cool...  something to think about...

I laid out the cylinders and upright supports.  The 2 inch high 12L14 cylinders will be mounted on two 5 inch pieces of 3/8 x 2 6061 flat bar.  



I sticky taped the cylinders to the bars...





Those bars will then be mounted to two house shaped pieces of 3/4 x 3 6061.  I taped on some chunks of 6061 round bar that I had laying around to get an idea of the scale with the heads on.



The flywheel will be 4'' OD and about 1 1/2 inch thick.  About 1'' of the house shaped uprights will be cut off and the engine lowered.





I laid out a rough idea of what the heads will look like.  This will change of course as the engine develops.



There will be 2 bearings on each side of the crank to help keep it steady.  They are 6001  28mm x 12mm x 8 mm.



Ignition is under development...  I am going to go with a CDI system of some sort with a distributor driven off the cam belt.

Fuel delivery will be a single carburetor centrally mounted with intake tubes in a riser configuration like a V8 intake manifold.  

More to come...

Doug
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 06:25:56 PM by dbvandy »
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2011, 12:51:26 AM »
This engine is a "design as I go" thing, so there will be multiple changes as it begins to spring to life.  I am not trying to come up with a better way of doing things, just what will look cool and be fairly simple to machine.  

As I sat and looked at it on my coffee table today, I think I might try a DOHC setup with rockers.  I do not know if I am going to do 4 separate heads or two heads, one for each bank.  decisions decisions...  I have a few heads from a Honda gold wing that I might try to emulate.

One thing I thought about today was to enclose the crank with Plexiglas and put some oil in it to lube the pistons and crank.

The ignition might end up being a singe coil CDI unit with a distributor that will be driven off the cam timing belt.

More to come...

Doug
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 11:36:04 AM by dbvandy »
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Offline saw

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2011, 05:24:07 AM »
I will follow this project with the biggist intresst.  :thumbup:
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Offline ieezitin

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2011, 07:54:43 AM »
Hey Doug!

The pictures of the cylinders and such all duct taped together reminds me of a engine made by Skoda, that was a car made in Russia back in the 70ies and sold in Europe, I owned one for about 7 hours back in 78, and then some crack head stole it while I was in the library returning books. Even though it was irritating I in my mind thanked him for it.

I like your style in laying out your project I like to do the same thing it really helps with analyzing what is needed and where problems will occur.

All the best on the build.      Happy Days.      Anthony.
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Offline jiihoo

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2011, 10:30:39 AM »
Actually Skoda was made in Czechoslovakia. But you were quite close, as Czechoslovakia is only 1000 kilometers from Russia and it was a socialist country at that time.

The "classic" rear-engined Skoda of the 70's, well, it was a "classic" in its own right. It was well known for its beaty and handling or rather the lack of both. The best that can be said about it is that it would have been a decent car had it been made 20 to 30 years earlier... And maybe it actually was, I am not old enough to remember beyond the 70's. The other common rear-engined car of the time, the Volkswagen Beetle, became a real classic but the rear-engined Skoda was mostly forgotten.

Nowadays Skoda is part of the Volkswagen group just like Audi and Seat AND Bentley AND Lamborghini (I didn't know of the last two before just two minutes ago and now I am in shock). The Skoda of today is quite ok. I don't think there is any of the "original" Skoda design left anymore except for the logo. It is all Volkswagen technology now. The Skodas of old, before the 60's, were quite good cars in their time and there are many old car enthusiasts who would very much like to find a good example and restore it back to its original glory. So your engine being compared to a Skoda engine is actually not as bad as it first might sound like  ::)

Back to on-topic now  :whip:

This will be an interesting thread to watch! Even just sitting there held together by tape the parts somehow seem to belong together.

Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2011, 11:43:17 PM »
Well,  I have made some decisions...

quad cam 16 valve hemi head... no rockers, cam directly over the valve with a inverted cup for adjustment.  I think I have it all figured out...

I have one prototype valve made now, might have to adjust dimensions a bit  will have one head prototyped up tomorrow and will post pics...

The heads are by far the hardest part... the cylinders, pistons, and crank will be easy...

More to come...  Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2011, 01:01:36 AM »
Here is a valve assembly.  There will be 16 of them (ugh....)



It is made in 5 parts (the inverted cup that rides on the cam and over the guide is not made....)  The valve is 1/8th inch rod and the head is silver soldered on...  not so sure about this...  might make them all out of one piece like I did on the other engines...  any suggestions?



The tappet is integrated into the valve so there is two places that the valve stem rides in the guide.  



The valves will be at 30 deg angle.  



One cam will operate both valves...  a total of 8 cams, but there will be a lobe on each end.



The heads will be about 1/2 an inch closer to the block once the cylinder is inset into block and head.  Still huge...



I found a site to compute the compression ratio...  the CI will be 3 and compression ratio 4 to 1...  nice...



More to come...

Doug
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 01:31:49 AM by dbvandy »
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline John Hill

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2011, 03:51:39 AM »
I didnt know Skoda made a V4. :scratch:
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Offline John Hill

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2011, 03:58:04 AM »
Well,  I have made some decisions...

quad cam 16 valve hemi head... no rockers, cam directly over the valve with a inverted cup for adjustment.  I think I have it all figured out...

I have one prototype valve made now, might have to adjust dimensions a bit  will have one head prototyped up tomorrow and will post pics...

The heads are by far the hardest part... the cylinders, pistons, and crank will be easy...

More to come...  Doug

Will you be carving the head(s) out of solid?

BTW,  I toyed with the idea of making a water cooled head for a single cylinder engine by cutting cross sections out of thin plate then fluxing them and cooking the entire assembly to braze it together. Food for thought? :beer:
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Offline NickG

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2011, 08:15:04 AM »
Doug,

Can't see the pics here (something to do with our server) but posting as a place holder for now so I can look when I get home!  :thumbup:

Will definitely be following this one.

Cheers,

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Bernd

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2011, 10:22:17 AM »
It is made in 5 parts (the inverted cup that rides on the cam and over the guide is not made....)  The valve is 1/8th inch rod and the head is silver soldered on...  not so sure about this...  might make them all out of one piece like I did on the other engines...  any suggestions?
Doug

Doug,

I've never built a IC engine so take this with a grain of salt. I would think that the closeing of the valve and it hitting the valve seat would stretch the the head off of the stem and you would loose compression after a while.

Just my thought on that.

Bernd
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2011, 10:43:42 AM »
It is made in 5 parts (the inverted cup that rides on the cam and over the guide is not made....)  The valve is 1/8th inch rod and the head is silver soldered on...  not so sure about this...  might make them all out of one piece like I did on the other engines...  any suggestions?
Doug

Doug,

I've never built a IC engine so take this with a grain of salt. I would think that the closeing of the valve and it hitting the valve seat would stretch the the head off of the stem and you would loose compression after a while.

Just my thought on that.

Bernd

There are plans that call for the head to be silver soldered onto the stem, but it just concerns me.   Does anyone have a screen shot of the instructions that explain how to make the two part valve?  Is there supposed to be a slot in the stem to help it lock onto the head?  Is there a particular percentage of silver needed or will plumbing silver solder be ok?

Thanks

Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline NickG

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2011, 12:17:02 PM »
Doug, I'm sure I've heard of / seen this somewhere before but can't help with specifics, sorry!

Nick
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2011, 11:46:39 PM »
Most of the time spent making engines is making jigs that most likely will never be used again....

I think I have the head about figured out... now if I can make four that are all the same.

I made up 3 guide blanks to see what it will look like.  There will be an inverted stainless cup to cover the valve and contact the cam.







This is most likely just the prototype.  After I know how to make one, then I will make 4 more.

More to come...

Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline saw

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2011, 04:41:34 AM »
Looking good  :clap:
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2011, 12:27:27 AM »
I now have 3 of the 4 heads milled...  Still need to mill the cam mounts, intake and exhaust ports and head bolt holes, but it is starting to look like something.

I purchased a new drill press, a 12 inch Ryobi (on clearance at Home Depot for $100, I'm just sayin......) with a 3 inch stroke and laser "X" marks the spot.  I got a really nice x-y table for Christmas but it was WAY to big for my tiny 8 inch delta press so I kept using the x-y vise on it.  On the new press it fits great and works wonderfully.  For those of you with proper mills, you might be chuckling, but it is what I have and it works just fine, just have to be careful and have realistic tolerances.  It trammed in to almost 0 all the way around, so I can't complain.  It has a MT2 and JT33 tapered arbor and I have red loctited the chuck on to it and blue loctited the arbor into the spindle as I might want to get it out one day.  I have taken a ton of "heavy" cuts and it has not budged.  If it comes loose, it comes loose, but I don't think it will...  I put two scissor jacks under the table to tram it in, I am going to weld up some proper screw jacks that can be mounted semi-permanent.

Here are some pics of the jig (scrap aluminum I had around).  I have ordered a proper angle vise so I won't have to worry with this in the future, but this works just fine.



And a wider shot:



And the start of some documentation of the head (have yet to figure out ProgeCAD).  The design was scientific eyeball and this is normalized to what it should be.  I had fun trying to remember all that sin and cos stuff to calculate the angles and dimensions ...  thank God for the internet...



ok.. now go build it guys....

oh...  still missing some dimensions....  working on that...

More to come...

Doug

« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 10:33:45 AM by dbvandy »
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2011, 11:40:17 PM »
One head is done minus manifold and cam bracket mounting holes and head bolt holes.  I am pretty confident I can make 3 more just like it...







More to come...

Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2011, 12:10:29 AM »
Did not make any chips today...  spent the day adding DRO's to the new machine.  $9.99 digital 6'' calipers from Harbor Freight.  Every time I am in there I pick up a set or two.  Even if they crap out... its only 10 bucks to get a new one.



x axis...  I can move if needed.  6'' is not much, but should be fine for what I am going to mill...



Y axis...  what a pain this one was!!!  The bracket needed to be pretty stout.  The other two took about an hour each... this one...  3 or 4... but it is right.  I do not really like it in the back, but I did not want it hanging out the front and get bent or broken.



The Z is pretty solid.  When I am in the mood I will make a proper clamp for the spindle, but this one works just fine for now.  It repeats over and over and is solid.  I can't complain.



The Press has variable speed via a CV belt system and it has a tach to show the revs.  The tach is a self contained system so I thought about getting a spare to add to the lathe...  $200 worth of parts!!!!  I only paid $100 for whole the press brand new on clearance!!!!



Tomorrow I will get back to making chips....

that is all...

Doug

« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 02:09:53 PM by dbvandy »
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2011, 02:06:41 PM »
Well, the four heads are done.  When I decided to go to 16 valves and 4 cam shafts the complexity skyrocketed immensely.  The first one is within a few thousands of the other three where all the critical measurements were, so I decided to forgo spending another two days making a fifth one.   

After viewing Kenneth's Robot photos, I decided to step up my photography a bit.  Not nearly the same thing as he is giving birth to, but here are the heads nonetheless...



Now onto the cylinders and block.  I am going to come back to the valves once I have a better handle on the placement of the cam shafts.

more to come...

Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline Bernd

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2011, 02:18:43 PM »
Lookin' good Doug. Hey all pictures are good, but a little competion makes for a better product.

This is an interesting thread. I enjoy seeing how one starts with an idea and seeing it come together. Nice job.  :thumbup:

Bernd
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Offline saw

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2011, 02:29:40 PM »
You are building somthing very fine  :thumbup:
I must ask you: what is DRO's and where to find that kind of digital 6'' calipers you have on your'e mill. Is it hard to mount? :loco:
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2011, 06:55:00 PM »
You are building somthing very fine  :thumbup:
I must ask you: what is DRO's and where to find that kind of digital 6'' calipers you have on your'e mill. Is it hard to mount? :loco:

DRO is a Digital Read Out.  it helps you know exactly where you are in space X-Y-Z.  The calipers are 6 inch cheap Chinese ones.  I have since discovers some from Grizzly that are not much more and are more robust and have a remote display...  maybe I will upgrade one day, but these work fine for now.  If I had this setup when I started the heads, they would all be the exact same.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/0-6-Digital-Fractional-Horizontal-Vertical-Remote-Scale/T21577

http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Digital-Scale-with-Remote-Readout-Inch-Metric-Fraction/T23012

The calipers came from Harbor Freight (there is a store 5 miles from my house...).  I have some really good coupons that get them down to $9.99...

http://www.harborfreight.com/6-inch-digital-caliper-47257.html

I also now have a tilt vise.  WOW!  I wish I had that when I started the heads!!!  oh well... now I do...  It was way out when I got it, but it is within a thou now.  Having the tools....  priceless...
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline saw

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2011, 08:17:16 PM »
Thanks for replay, it's very intressting, but I did not quite understand, how to mount it on the mill, I supose I have to drill some right?  :loco:
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2011, 10:30:48 PM »
Thanks for replay, it's very intressting, but I did not quite understand, how to mount it on the mill, I supose I have to drill some right?  :loco:

Two holes for each axis.  not real big ones and they cause no change to the operation of the mill.  I made brackets and epoxied them to the scales...  I tried to drill them... but they are hardened stainless and I did not have any cobalt drills, just HSS.

Doug
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 06:37:02 PM by dbvandy »
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline NickG

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2011, 03:19:14 AM »
Brilliant work on the heads doug, really nice and it looks like the dro's have transformed your mill. Considering it's a hybrid made from a drill press you've got excellent results from it  :thumbup:
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Offline jim

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2011, 03:41:38 AM »
impresive work
if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2011, 09:15:26 PM »
Thanks for all the encouragement!  This engine has turned out to be a pretty complex animal.  Today I bored out two cylinders and mocked up the cam shafts and manifolds.   I will cut in the cooling fins after everything is bolted up tight.



I am going to make my own carburetor once she comes to life, but I am going to use a vapor carb to trouble shoot, so the intake manifold needs to flexible.  I mocked up the 1/2'' square bar to see how this might work.  I think I am going to do 2 carbs, but might do just one.



The cam supports will be cut out to as little as is needed to support the shafts and bearings.



The exhaust manifold will most likely be two separate pieces... maybe brass, maybe aluminum.



This pic gives you a bit of perspective on size.  When two of them are mounted on the block it is going to be massive....



More to come...

Doug

 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 12:36:15 AM by dbvandy »
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2011, 01:15:54 AM »
Finally caught up with this thread. Excellent work Doug. Unreal what you are doing with a modded drill press. Impressive.

Eric
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Offline raynerd

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2011, 03:19:16 AM »
Fantastic work Doug.... you are flying through these engine builds!! You seem to build more in a few days than I do ge through in a month  :bow: :bow:

This is just a stunning build - will you be drawing up plans when you get it running....could be my next engine if I get my Webster running  :headbang:

Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2011, 02:08:46 PM »
Fantastic work Doug.... you are flying through these engine builds!! You seem to build more in a few days than I do ge through in a month  :bow: :bow:

This is just a stunning build - will you be drawing up plans when you get it running....could be my next engine if I get my Webster running  :headbang:

What do you mean "IF" you get the Webster running...  she WILL run!!!!!!

I am really interested in how the $26 CDI unit works.  I am just about ready to order one to see for myself.


Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline raynerd

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2011, 02:25:07 PM »
haha, you have more confidence than me !!

My CDI unit was apparently shipped the day after I made the order..I just hope it arrives safely. Are you thinking of drawing up plans for your engine?

Chris

Offline j45on

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2011, 02:31:13 PM »
Looking great so far  :thumbup: I cant believe how quick you build  :bugeye: I'm watching with great interest  :nrocks:

 :offtopic: I wish we had cherry coke zero in the UK  :(
Jason

Offline NickG

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2011, 04:32:52 PM »
Wow -  I didn't realise it had 4 valves per cyl. before don't think I've seen much like this on a model before.  :bow:

Nick
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Offline BlueRock

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2011, 04:45:29 PM »
What a great looking build you have going! I am feeling inspired

Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2011, 06:09:23 PM »
Wow -  I didn't realise it had 4 valves per cyl. before don't think I've seen much like this on a model before.  :bow:

Nick

Nick,

It definitely ups the complexity of the build.  Lots more to go wrong with dimensions a seals, but I think everything is within tolerance o that it will run, just the parts will have to be marked so that they go back the same way and fit.   As I did each head, I refined and fine tuned the dimensions, so they are not exactly the same, so valve clearances and mounting holes are not exactly in the same place on all four heads, very close, but not exact.

Fantastic work Doug.... you are flying through these engine builds!! You seem to build more in a few days than I do ge through in a month  :bow: :bow:

This is just a stunning build - will you be drawing up plans when you get it running....could be my next engine if I get my Webster running  :headbang:

Chris,  I will draw some up after I get this running and perfected, but it will be a while.  Right now I am designing this engine by staring at it for long periods of time and then dreaming about it all night.  Most likely I will build a second engine as I draw up the plans to make sure it all goes together correctly.

:offtopic: I wish we had cherry coke zero in the UK  :(

one of my all time favorites...  really good with rum....

Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2011, 06:53:10 PM »
Brilliant work on the heads doug, really nice and it looks like the dro's have transformed your mill. Considering it's a hybrid made from a drill press you've got excellent results from it  :thumbup:

the only real problem with the "hybrid" is the stiffness of the column.  I am looking for some 65mm tube that is stiffer, but it does a very good job and is probably close to the stiffness of a mini mill.  The table is not mounted directly to the base, so it does not move at all....

It is a HUGE step up from my tiny 8 inch and the compound x-y vise where I did the Webster and the Otto.  One day I will move up to a Bridgeport or a mill drill.  I am leaning toward the mill drill because it is a bit more portable if I ever move...

Doug
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 10:58:50 AM by dbvandy »
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2011, 01:24:14 AM »
I did a little design on the V4 today.  The cam mount blocks are roughed out and mounted, most of the stock will be removed, just enough to support the bearings will be left.  



Now to tap the cylinders and make some gaskets so I can start mounting things permanent.  I also started to get a feel for how the belt will run and drive the cams and distributor.  Sprockets are $15 each...  times 5 for the 30s and one 15 tooth...  $90 worth of gears...  I will be cutting my own... might buy one, then copy it.  The belt will be about 35 inches long.

More to come...

Doug

« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 01:30:48 AM by dbvandy »
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Offline saw

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2011, 04:34:08 AM »
Very nice, good work  :clap: :clap: :thumbup:
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Offline BiggerHammer

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2011, 07:13:14 PM »
Very nice indeed and moving along very quick pace. Keep it up and this thing will be running in no time.

Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2011, 08:49:26 PM »
Zowwie!   :beer:  This is coming along quickly!  Very cool!

Probably a dumb question to those who work on engines a lot but since I'm not one of those guys, I'll go ahead and ask.  The four large circles at the front on the ends of the rods...?  These circles are place holders that roughly represent pulleys for a serpentine timing belt that will keep all the cams synchronised?  I'm guessing yes but thought to ask...

Exactly!  I put a hole in some body washers just to get a feel for how it will look with the pulleys on the front.  The real pulleys will be about an inch thick.  It will be a toothed belt because timing is needed, the cams must turn 1/2 as much as the crank.

I am divided on whether to go with a .080 pitch MXL belt like I did not the Otto, or a larger .200 pitch XL.  The 200 will look beefier, so I might go that route.

Doug
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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2011, 01:02:12 AM »
Hi Doug,
It  is all a matter of how much force you want  to transmit.  0.080 (MXL) is really light stuff.  I use this with very small electric motors on my smaller projects and it can  be over torqued pretty easily unless I implement  velocity profiling.

Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2011, 10:29:37 AM »
Hi Doug,
It  is all a matter of how much force you want  to transmit.  0.080 (MXL) is really light stuff.  I use this with very small electric motors on my smaller projects and it can  be over torqued pretty easily unless I implement  velocity profiling.


I used an .080  on the Otto engine and it seemed to work pretty well, driving the single cam did not seem to put too much torque on the belt.  I will be driving 4 cams with this one with 8 contacts, so I think I will go for the beefier 3/8 inch wide XL which is .200 pitch.  It is going to look like a blower belt...

Doug
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2011, 10:48:00 AM »
Well, I tapped 31.5 of the 32 6-32 holes successfully yesterday for the cylinders, 4 for each head and 4 each to mount them to the block....  don't you just hate it when the tap grabs a chip all the way at the bottom of the hole and you hear that "crrreannnk"  sound????  

Bad words were said...

ugh...


Doug
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 12:15:52 PM by dbvandy »
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Offline Bernd

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2011, 11:42:16 AM »
Sorry to hear thar Doug.

For a while ther I was wondering what 1/2 6-32 thread is.  :palm:   :doh: Then I realized reading further what you meant.  :(

Time for a little, what is it, alm or something of that sort to melt the tap out.?

Bernd
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2011, 12:24:32 PM »
Sorry to hear thar Doug.

For a while ther I was wondering what 1/2 6-32 thread is.  :palm:   :doh: Then I realized reading further what you meant.  :(

Time for a little, what is it, alm or something of that sort to melt the tap out.?

Bernd

It is a blind hole, so I can't even drive it through and build up the hole with weld and re-drill and tap...  I tried to grind it out with a diamond tip dremel bit, worked some, but it was about a 1/2 inch of tap in the hole.  I even tried to heat it up with the torch to soften it up then drill it out, HSS was still no match for it.

It is one that is one the bottom and the other 3 will hold the cylinder tight, so I might just let it go this time.  It's not worth rotating the cylinder 45 deg and drilling and tapping 8 new holes.

 :bang:

I try to find my happy place....

 :med:

Doug

« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 12:27:46 PM by dbvandy »
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2011, 03:50:00 PM »

Probably better to find a small mold or tooling shop because a larger place like Atlanta EDM looks like the kind of place that is going to charge through the nose because your job is to small for them.  Guess you could call and find out...

Its nice to have good friends like that with the tooling needed to do the job...

Funny that you should say Atlanta EDM... I had them pulled up and was about to call...  they were too busy to help little old me, and would probably charge a ton just to do this one hole, but did give me another place to go.

Where this one is broken is not critical and not visual, it is on the bottom of the cylinder and there are 3 other bolts to hold the cylinder to the block plate.  I think I will just fill the hole in the aluminum plate with alumiweld, re-drill smaller and tap the block plate, then put in a short dummy bolt to fill the hole.  The only ones that will ever know it was like that are the ones reading this post...  maybe I will rotate and re drill some day...

I need to buy some better taps, I guess....

Doug
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 04:18:00 PM by dbvandy »
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2011, 09:48:36 PM »
I did some work on the V4 today.... two of the cam supports are drilled and shaped.  Two more to go then I start working on the block and crank.





The valves and cams will be done after the block, pistons, and connecting rods are done, in other words, after I figure out how I want to do them... and feel like working on all 16 of them for a REEEAAALLLYYY long time...

More to come...

Doug
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 09:54:50 PM by dbvandy »
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Offline saw

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2011, 03:13:00 AM »
Looking good  :clap:
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2011, 01:06:38 AM »
Made some progress on the V4 16V Quad OHC today...  It's starting to look like something and not quite as huge as I thought it was going to be... still big, just not huge...

The washers are an approximation of the size of the timing pulleys.  They will be about 5/8 inch thick with a 3/8 hub turned down to about 3/4 inch.





The flywheel is just roughed out...  most of the middle will go away.



Still designing the intake manifold.  If I go with 4 carbs, it will be easier to build them (4) but a pain to sych them all up, so I think not...



more to come...

Doug

« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 12:16:38 PM by dbvandy »
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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2011, 05:03:39 AM »
Hi Doug   :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

wow having just read this post your sure doing a mighty fine job of designing   :smart:  and building this engine  :dremel:

nice one  :thumbup:

Rob

Offline saw

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2011, 05:16:29 AM »
Your'e engine is coming up just fine  :D
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2011, 09:27:51 AM »
Hi Doug   :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

wow having just read this post your sure doing a mighty fine job of designing   :smart:  and building this engine  :dremel:

nice one  :thumbup:

Rob

Rob, 

It's funny that because there are 4 of most things to make, the third one is usually the one that is right...   ::)  :whip:

Doug
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2011, 06:31:45 PM »
Hi Doug.  This is looking great, nice progress!
Hoping to learn something here, help me to understand the function of the two large square extrusions bolted to the sides of the cylendar heads, connecting them.  It is hard to tell in the photo but I would guess it is 1-in square.  Is this to align the cylinders during the build and is removed later, or is this part going to be used mount additional items later that have not yet been fabricated?   -Just be being curious, hope it is not a bone head question.   :doh:
Keep up the great work, I am really enjoying this thread, thank you!

The 1/2x1/2 bar stock is part of the design of the intake manifold.  I tapped two holes per head for exhaust and intake on each side of the ports just in case I wanted to go with 4 carburetors or a setup that uses separate manifolds per cylinder.  Right now they are just there as I sit and stare at the engine designing it in my head.

Now that the cylinders are bolted in their final positions, I will start putting some effort into designing the intake manifold.  I am leaning toward one centrally located carb with a combination of bar stock and tubing loctited together.  I have had some success with aluminum brazing, so that is an option as well.

Right now I am stuck on what to do with the crank.  It has to be in 3 parts so that I can get the connecting rod bearings on, but I am concerned about making it solid.  I think I am going to go with 2 bearings in the center to support the crank...  still more mental design to go there.  I had to borrow some bolts... ran out of 5/8 inch 6-32's....



After you get that robot finished (in a decade or so  :poke:), maybe you can make something that goes putt-putt...   :beer:  

Doug
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 06:52:53 PM by dbvandy »
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2011, 09:01:40 PM »
Looks like we lost a few days worth of posts....  bummer...

Well,  here is a pic I posted holding the engine to give you a better idea of scale...



I have also decided to go with a "half fork" design for the connecting rods.  I was thinking about a fork and blade setup, but I really think that this engine is low enough horsepower to be able to pull off the offset connecting rod.

This is the fork and blade setup:



I purchased some bearings some R4 (1/4x 5/8) for the connecting rod big ends and some R8 (1/2 x 1 1/8) bearings for the crank.  I am also going to use 6 bearings on the crank to help support it and keep it aligned, two on each output shafts and two on the center support block.   This might be overkill, but It will be solid and not fly apart at 5k RPM.

More to come when the bearings arrive...

Doug
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 10:18:58 PM by dbvandy »
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Offline Dean W

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2011, 02:33:44 AM »
Wow Doug.  Quite a project, and you must work like a madman to get so much done in a month! 
I'm just catching up with this build.  An interesting and entertaining thread!  Keep it up.  : )
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2011, 10:09:46 AM »
Wow Doug.  Quite a project, and you must work like a madman to get so much done in a month! 
I'm just catching up with this build.  An interesting and entertaining thread!  Keep it up.  : )

Thanks Dean....

It has been a fun learning experience to design and build this engine with limited tooling and resources.  I spend a ton of time just staring at it on my coffee table at night trying to figure out where to go with it next.

Once the bearings arrive, I will get the crank built, then work on the pistons and connecting rods.

Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2011, 10:41:22 PM »
 :offtopic:

 :( :( :( :( Not much work done on the v4...  had to take care of the MR2....   :( :( :( :(

Hole in the number 3 piston... could be why I had 0 compression...



Oh... and the bearings arrived... they are right there behind the ratchet still in the tubes...  :bang:



Gave me a chance to seat the valves an replace the seals...  after 120000 miles still had .008 clearance on the valves...  not bad...



Cylinder not torn up too much.. not as bad as I thought it would be...  might burn a little oil, but it is a 23 year old car....  honing got rid of 90% of it, will need to get bored over eventually, but it should be fine for now...  maybe I will drop a 2.0 3S-GTE turbo in there one day...



New pistons will be here tomorrow.  When I get it back on the road I will start working on the V4 again...

Thanks for your patience...

Doug
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 11:30:01 PM by dbvandy »
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2011, 11:20:35 PM »
 :beer: Ken...
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Offline raynerd

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #59 on: April 20, 2011, 03:02:15 AM »
That is amazing - I`ve never stripped an engine. I keep threatening to strip the engine on my Honda CG125, I`m sure it would help seeing how a proper engine is built when building these models. I enjoyed the pictures!

Offline NickG

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2011, 02:24:05 PM »
Nice work on the engine Doug, shame about the piston - what caused it though? was it pinking? Strangely a friend at work, I think from what he said, has done the same to his car last night! My mate has a Ferrari 355 replica based on a rev 2 MR2 Turbo - quite a quick car, think the rev 3 engine has another 20bhp or so?

NIck

ps the v4 is looking amazing.  :bow:
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2011, 11:46:42 PM »
I bought the car like this 10 years ago for $300 and it has just been sitting in my back yard waiting for a title, which never came.  I finally got a bonded title and started into it as I want to have a little sports car to speed around in with the T-tops out.

Pistons arrived, new rings, cylinders honed, valves reseated, engine back together minus the intake and wiring...

 

Did a quick compression check once I got it all timed and sealed up:



200 pounds of compression in the cylinder that was burned.  The other 3 were also right there, so it should be a screamer when I get the intake cleaned out and installed.

Nice work on the engine Doug, shame about the piston - what caused it though? was it pinking? Strangely a friend at work, I think from what he said, has done the same to his car last night! My mate has a Ferrari 355 replica based on a rev 2 MR2 Turbo - quite a quick car, think the rev 3 engine has another 20bhp or so?

NIck

ps the v4 is looking amazing.  :bow:

This motor has 115hp, the 2.0 liter in the mk2 has 140 n/a and almost 200 turboed.  

It looks like there was a flaw in the piston from the factory.  It burned through in the thickest part of the piston and into the compression ring groove, so it was not pre-ignition.  It looks like the previous owner ran it for a while pumpin raw oil straight into the cylinder, then back through the egr into the intake, it is in REALLLLYYYY bad condition inside, so 5 cans of carb cleaner should make it pretty again.

On a side note...  I am not planning on keeping this motor in this car for very long, maybe just through the summer and fall, then I am looking at putting a 3.0 liter Camry engine in it.  About 200 HP out of the box and torque that never ends.  Well documented on the inter web and should be dooable for about a $1000 bucks (and fits in, sort of...)  Should be a fun winter project...

Should be back to the V4 next week...

Doug
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 11:51:03 PM by dbvandy »
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Offline NickG

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2011, 09:38:42 AM »
Nice work. Over here (I say here but they are all Jap imports) the early mk2 turbos have 220bhp and the latest ones were 240! Must have been slightly de-tuned for the American market. My friend was also considering the camry v6 engine but to get somebody to do it you're talking £3000 over here!
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2011, 02:09:57 PM »
Nice work. Over here (I say here but they are all Jap imports) the early mk2 turbos have 220bhp and the latest ones were 240! Must have been slightly de-tuned for the American market. My friend was also considering the camry v6 engine but to get somebody to do it you're talking £3000 over here!

Yea, the ole US EPA makes us throw on all this smog reducing crappola to help the air.  the really nice thing about this car is that in 2 years it will be considered an antique and not have to be inspected...  I think then is when I will do the swap.

She is running like a top now, so back to the fun stuff...

Doug
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Offline NickG

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2011, 05:16:54 PM »
Well done, always a great feeling when it fires back up after major engine work! No reason it shouldn't by there's always that thought at the back of your mind!
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Offline BlueRock

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2011, 05:03:58 AM »
Looking great Doug! I like the way you are designing and sorting out the finer details as you go. Can't wait for your next installment.

Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2011, 09:31:06 AM »
The weather got too damn nice here in Atlanta to stay in the shop, so some other projects like rebuilding the motor in the MR2, de-winterizing the Seadoo and finishing the floor and transom rebuild in the Sidewinder speed boat have taken priority.

Glad to see some of you are getting something out of the posts.  I will get back to it soon.... 

:coffee: Doug
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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2011, 11:34:16 AM »
...
On a side note...  I am not planning on keeping this motor in this car for very long, maybe just through the summer and fall, then I am looking at putting a 3.0 liter Camry engine in it.  About 200 HP out of the box and torque that never ends.  Well documented on the inter web and should be dooable for about a $1000 bucks (and fits in, sort of...)  Should be a fun winter project...

Should be back to the V4 next week...

Doug

Following the V4 work, and it looks like it is coming along nicely... however... If you do drop the Camry engine in the mister2, I would love to see a build log.

Eric

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Offline HS93

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2011, 02:04:22 PM »
is that the 1600cc 4AGE MR2 ? because over hear they where 128mbp and a little scremer, I had 3 new Gti corrola's that flew then I got a 1800GXI that was a dog it was red lined about 1500 lower and i spent the first 6 months bouncing off the rev limmiter. this is a handy uk site

http://www.fensport.co.uk/FensportCars/MR2_Supercharger.aspx

peter
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2011, 10:56:53 AM »
It is the 4age.  Over here in the colonies it only puts out 115 bhp due to the emissions junk.  But it is running great and getting over 30 mpg so that is a great thing.

You can bet the when I do the engine swap, I will document it here....

Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline raynerd

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #70 on: May 19, 2011, 10:27:42 AM »
Hi Doug, I was enjoying the build and there has been no updates for a while.... :poke: :poke: :poke: :whip: :whip: