Author Topic: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock  (Read 134707 times)

Offline NickG

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #150 on: September 01, 2011, 08:05:35 AM »
Great stuff Chris, fantasic achievement  :bow:
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #151 on: September 01, 2011, 11:33:27 AM »
Deko - those little bearings are fantastic but sadly I`ve used 10 of them now. They are quite delicate and I destroyed a couple trying to friction press fit them in the case :(  If only I knew if they could be purchased, I`d get more in stock! I have about 6 left which I will be saving until I have a very good need!! I`m still working on the idea we discussed and haven`t forgot about it!

Stew and Nick - thanks a lot. I`m pretty chuffed. It is now 4:30pm and it is still running, I just had to raise the master weight which was a real pain so I`m going to have to think about the maintaining works pretty soon as well.

Chris

Offline kvom

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #152 on: September 01, 2011, 04:39:15 PM »
How about a photo showing how the cord attaches to the pin wheel shaft?  The support plate is blocking the view.

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #153 on: September 01, 2011, 05:11:31 PM »
Hi Kvom, it goes around a 45 deg (not the 40 deg specified in the plans) V groove on the wheel arbor:





Hope that makes sense...

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #154 on: September 07, 2011, 05:25:30 PM »
Well as with last time when I hadn`t posted for a while, it isn`t not because I`ve not been working on it, just struggling!

For the first time, I`ve gone ahead and made a part without actually understanding how it works and fits together. The daisy wheel is very clever. Gadget builder has posted on youtube a nice video showing as best he could how it runs but despite his best efforts, reading all the books I could, I still couldn`t quite understand it.

&feature=related

The basic idea is a daisy shaped wheel running on a cam like action to get your 12:1 reduction. It is an amazing concept since most geared motion works requires a number of gears (two gears would get your 12:1 reduction but would have the hour hand running backwards!)  This concept does just use 2 parts, the daisy wheel and pin wheel and gets the 12:1 reduction!!!

The first part is the pin wheel, you can in theory use 12, 4 or even 2 pin, I went with 4. My filing is improving as is my use of a piercing saw but with this being such a central piece, I wanted a nice finish so marked out with off centre holes and mounted each hole on the arbour in my rotary table to cut the shape:







I then spent all my time on daisy wheels making 4 attempts in total. I ended up using my first but I am determined to make a better one before I call the clock complete. Just getting the concept to work made me happy but I think now I understand it better, I can make a nicer looking one.

Marked out the daisy wheel


and then no more close ups or details as it looks like a rat chewed it!! All I will say, is that the petals are not needed and are just an added possible problem so get rid of them. I first read that the petals can be removed by looking at a picture sent to gadgetbuilder by Anthony Adams who had "abbreviated" the petals. They are not needed. In action it does appear like the pin wheel is riding the petals but in theory, the pins are simply locating in the "V" of the petals and not riding on the petal top itself.

Here are all the parts to the daisy wheel including some clock hands that I dug out of my stash which luckly fit.




At this point, I could then place the daisy wheel in the pin wheel and locate the pins in some of the bottom daisy "V"s. I could then spin the wheel in the pin wheel and you could observe the 12:1 reduction. The issue was then making a cam with the correct throw. Too much and the pins bind, too little and the pins wouldn`t engage. When I got it somewhere near, the petals tops started causing an issue which is why I lobbed them off in a desperate attempt to get it to run, and I was lucky, and it did!

The daisy motion is a totally independant unit. At the very back of the pin wheel arbor I have put a piece of bent spring steel with a taper pin behind it. The entire daisy motion is then pushed up against the bent spring steel and a taper pin inserted at the front to hold everything in place. This then acts a clutch allowing you to alter the time as the daisy motion/minute hand is not stuck or screwed to the pin wheel arbor, it is just being held by friction against the spring steel.



And finally a video for you:

&feature=youtu.be

It has only been running for about 2 hours and is working OK with the hour hand turning nicely. However plenty of time to stop and bind yet!!

Although my daisy wheel works, it looks a mess and also the "V" between petals is too large, this means the hour hand hangs for a good few minutes without moving rather than a nice gradual progression with the minute hand. It isn`t really noticable but I`ll notice it  :dremel:

Hope you are enjoying the build. I`m certainly enjoying making it!

Chris

Offline saw

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #155 on: September 07, 2011, 06:48:50 PM »
You are doing a very good work, I hope that it will work out very well for you.  :bugeye:
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Offline spuddevans

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #156 on: September 08, 2011, 02:11:32 AM »
That's coming along very nicely Chris :thumbup: I hadn't seen the "daisy wheel motion" before, thanks for showing it.



Tim
Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe  -  MI0TME

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #157 on: September 08, 2011, 02:15:16 AM »
I very much admire your perseverance Chris!  :clap: :clap:

But now, I'm lost completely:palm:

Hope it makes more sense after I've had me breakfast.......  :thumbup:

Yer doing well...... Keep on with the developments!  :D

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline picclock

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #158 on: September 08, 2011, 07:15:11 AM »
Hi Chris

Can you give any more info or a video of the daisy wheel reduction mechanism ?.

I'm probably being a bit dense here, but the daisy has 12 notches, and there are 4 pins on the wheel which is mounted eccentrically. So in my mind I see each petal advancing 1/12th of a revolution every pin engagement. So I would see this as a 3:1 reduction which it obviously isn't.

What happens if the daisy wheel is moved to a halfway position at the moment when the pin should engage - I presume this would cause it to jam, so how do you ensure during adjustment of the time that this does not occur ?

Very interesting project, thanks so much for sharing.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #159 on: September 08, 2011, 10:48:59 AM »
Thanks for the comments and interest you are taking.

I have to admit that I`m not great at reading tech. drawings and every part I`ve ever made, I`ve had to understand how it works first to help read the drawings. This is the first assembly I`ve ever made without understanding how it run...despite my best efforts and hours or reading and studying, I just could work it out. I don`t expect to do much better at explaining how it runs but I`ll do my best with perhaps a video later tonight!!



The first thing to note that confused me massively was that the only single part  revolving once per hour and therefore "stuck" (it is actually friction fit against the clutch spring) to pin wheel arbor, is the minute collet - that is the part with the cam attached in the centre of the photo. So that is doing 1 complete turn per hour. The end of it is thread and the minute hand is sat screwed onto the end.

The pin wheel is also free to turn independently on its axle (the minute collet) but can`t as its pins get stuck in the grooves of the petals. The pin wheel has the hour hand stuck on it.

The daisy wheel then simply "sits" on the cam and slides on it. So as the cam turns the daisy wheel lifts up and down.

As the daisy wheel lifts to the top and then to the bottom each hour, its action throws the legs of the pin wheels between the daisy petals and each hour, a pin locates to the next V on the daisy wheel. There are 11 petals and "V" notches between petals on the wheel and therefore in my simple head, I can`t do any more than imagine the count of the hour hand and it works - for 12 rotations of the daisy wheel the pin wheel rotates one complete turn.  

I don`t think I`ve posted gadgetbuilders youtube video... THIS IS NOT MY VIDEO but it a great vid of how it works:

&feature=related

Offline DaveH

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #160 on: September 08, 2011, 01:37:00 PM »
Chris,

Great work Chris :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I have to say that daisy wheel (thing) is damn clever  :jaw:

 :beer:
DaveH
(Ex Leicester, Thurmaston, Ashby De La Zouch.)

Offline NickG

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #161 on: September 08, 2011, 01:48:56 PM »
Chris, I haven't even tried to understand it yet ... but it's awesome, beautiful ... well done!  :bow:
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline picclock

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #162 on: September 08, 2011, 02:37:29 PM »
@ Chris

Thanks very much for the video link, I think I get it now. Its kind of similar to a planet and sun arrangement. Whoever thought that out was a very clever guy  :bow:

Thanks very much for sharing.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline kvom

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #163 on: September 08, 2011, 03:54:59 PM »
I assume that the rod attached to the botto m of the daisy wheel is just a weight to keep the daisy wheel oriented.

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #164 on: September 09, 2011, 03:17:05 AM »
The rod attached to the bottom of the daisy wheel ensures that the wheel slides on the cam. The rod is trapped between the two pins (currently two long 10Ba screws that are mounted next to each other on the pin wheel plate. In gadget builders video you can see how the daisy wheel rod is getting pushed from side to side but the two pin are holding the wheel relatively square but yet allowing it to freely move on the cam.

I`m making this entire section again using a bearing mounted in the daisy wheel centre for smoother running.

Chris

Offline modeldozer

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #165 on: September 09, 2011, 07:03:25 AM »
Well done. :clap: :clap:  Good luck with the remake.

Abraham

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #166 on: September 09, 2011, 08:24:09 AM »
A quick animation of a cycloidal reduction gear as used in Chris's clock



Bill
Bill

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #167 on: September 09, 2011, 12:27:02 PM »
Did you make that Bill ??? If so, how the hell did you do it???   :bow: :bow: :bow:

EDIT: ps. when I post this write up to my blog, can I include the image if I give you full credit of course?

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #168 on: September 09, 2011, 02:41:52 PM »
Quote
EDIT: ps. when I post this write up to my blog, can I include the image if I give you full credit of course?
No problem. (you might want to host it on your site rather then link it. )

[edit]

This is a slightly more accurate cycloidal reduction gear. The petals aren't quite right - they are circular rather than a cycloid.



Bill
Bill

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #169 on: September 09, 2011, 03:41:52 PM »
Bill - what did you use to create the image?

Also, from it, can you chop the petals tips off to show a version of the abbreviated wheel to show it works without? Thanks for allowing me to save the image and I will host it myself.

Chris

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #170 on: September 09, 2011, 04:14:34 PM »
Quote
can you chop the petals tips off to show a version of the abbreviated wheel to show it works without?
Ah! TILT, I cant, because I've modified the original model to produce the later animation - Sorry :doh:


[edit] I've just upload my new animations page http://billtodd.dyndns.org/animations/index.html

what do you think ? I've a load of extra ones to add at some stage.
Bill

Offline picclock

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #171 on: September 10, 2011, 03:16:34 AM »
@BillTodd

Excellent animation - a picture truly is worth a thousand words. Many Thanks.

What program did you use to create it ?

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #172 on: September 12, 2011, 05:22:23 PM »
Disaster, the weight slipped tonight when winding and mucked up all the setup as well as bending a couple of pins on the pin wheel. Time to cry the night away ....  :palm:

Once I`ve corrected it, the next thing on the list as a mod to the movement is a stop for the jockey weight so it won`t happen again.   :med: :coffee:

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #173 on: October 01, 2011, 02:55:57 PM »
Your doing some really fine /top class work there Chris  :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:


Rob

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #174 on: October 01, 2011, 03:09:38 PM »
Well over 2 weeks since I updated and I can honestly say I`ve been working none stop on the clock with very little to show. The pin wheel had been damaged and some of the pins needed removing and resecuring in place which took a few evenings. I also have been doing a bit of work on the daisy wheel but nothing to show yet. However, I have made more progress on the weight setup shown below.

I`m doubling over the weights to give me a shorted pendulum drop per day. This requires two more pulleys making (shown in the second to last picture) and also a new jockey weight with a pully.

Here goes, sorry, too many photos really but I took them so may as well post them...

I took this piece of brass someone kindly donated to me a few weeks ago and turned it to a good finish.


I then cut a groove in the end:


I then took a piece of brass bar to make the end cap. I always always struggle making something a friction fit, I`m always either just too big or just too small. So this time I turned a little lip at the end and turned it down until the bar would "just" fit with a bit of pushing into the groove. I then backed out 2 thou and parted off a disk:


Used a bit of loctite and hammered it in place. Popped it back in the late and faced the end flush. You can`t see the joint!


I then made a screw on lid so that I can add lead weights as needed:


The hole in the lid is for a lever bar to screw the lid on and off, which is why the drill is in there... a good way to snap drills :D


I then made the pulley for on the top.


Made a screw for the pulley axle:




Then I made the pulley holder which I decided was too big, so the black mark is where I decided to chop it in half!







Looks much better down you think without the top piece??

WHAT AN IDIOT I AM!! The holder is kept whole so that the line can go around the pulley, up over a pulley on the main clock and back down and tie onto the centre of the top of the holder!!!

Can anyone see a fix around it?