Author Topic: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock  (Read 133397 times)

Offline kvom

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #125 on: August 17, 2011, 09:28:27 AM »
I'm liking this thread a lot.   :clap:

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #126 on: August 23, 2011, 08:20:42 PM »
I`ve not posted an update for a few days and the truth is, I`d made all the parts required to test the mechanism and I must have spent near 10 hours just tweeking the setup to get it to run. Finally, just as I was giving up again for the evening, I had a brain wave, made some changes and off it went tick-toc, tick-toc   :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

I`ve many corrections to make to the working mechanism and you will spot a huge error in the working of the backstop - notice when the backstop engages the large tooth,it jumps/catches the count wheel. I think this is just the position of the backstop pawl but I wanted to leave it and let it have some time running. It didn`t effect the physical mechanism but it will cause errors in the time, so it will need correcting. I have a much much better idea now of how this all fits together so I`m now very confident I can get it working more smoothly!

Here goes, I just did my best to video it in bad light at this time of night.  :ddb:



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: I`ve managed to catch this thread in time to edit it and insert some details of the movement again for those interested.

1. The pendulum swings 40 periods each minute, gathering a tooth on the 40 tooth count wheel. The count wheel therefore rotates once every minute and so the seconds hand could be placed on this wheel but it would turn in reverse. Consequently, Wilding didn`t have any seconds indication but Woodward placed numbers on his count wheel to approximate the seconds.

2. The count wheel has a single deeper tooth than the rest. When the count wheel pawl (the top wire on the pendulum) drops into this deep tooth, it engages the vertical wire on the deflector piece. At 56 seconds in the video, you can see the count wheel pawl going over the top of the deflector and imagine how it interacts when it hits the deep tooth.

3. The deflector therefore tips anticlockwise and this causes the diagonal piece of the deflector piece to obviously tip down as well. You can see the deflector mounted on the backplate below (the other bit you can see at the bottom of the deflector is a stop to stop it tipping all the way back at rest).

4. This bottom piece of the deflector bears down on the lower wire from the pendulum (the impulse pawl) which engages a tooth on the pin wheel.

5. You can`t see this on the video but there is a small weight (a large allan key!) hooked directly onto a tooth (at about 3 oclock position) on the pin wheel. The tooth on the pin wheel is engaged with the bottom lip of the deflector piece. When the impulse pawl pulls the pin wheel back by a fraction, this releases the pin from the detent and the weight on the pin wheel, which in future will be a proper weight and chord, pulls the pendulum back to the right and gives it the impulse!

6. There are 60 pins on the pin wheel and so this rotates once an hour giving you the arbor for the minute hand.   A fancy "daisy motion works" will then need building to gearlessly reduce down this motion to 1 turn per 12 revolution of the minute hand/pin wheel arbour.

Hope that in some way explains how it runs!

-------------------------------------------------------------------


Some more pictures for you of bits I`ve taken as I did a quick polish ready for this test assembly.

Back plate.


All the bits ready for a quick polish. This isn`t a final polish, I just needed everything clean to get it to run.


Count wheel


Back stop




I made another count wheel with shallower teeth a few days ago but managed to get the original one working so didn`t bother using it yet. I might try this one as I expect that the back stop is jumping because the tooth is overly deep on my initial wheel I`m using.


Pin wheel and deflector piece:


same as above, with the gated detent:



Well I can now go to bed much more positive than I have been doing for the last few weeks! I`ll post a little more detail of the mechanism and an explanation of the video tomorrow.

Good night!   :wave: :ddb:  :nrocks: :med:  :drool:  :ddb:
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 03:55:04 AM by craynerd »

Offline DaveH

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #127 on: August 23, 2011, 08:35:16 PM »
Chris,

Excellent Chris, Excellent :thumbup: :clap:

 :beer:
DaveH
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Offline CallMeAl

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #128 on: August 24, 2011, 12:00:50 AM »
Great work - this is so cool!

Al
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #129 on: August 24, 2011, 01:52:49 AM »
Another runner! What a great feeling...... :ddb: :ddb:

Well done Chris.  :clap: :clap: :thumbup:

David D
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Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline John-Som

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #130 on: August 24, 2011, 03:43:42 AM »
You must be chuffed to bits Chris. Doesn't she sound good too !

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Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #131 on: August 24, 2011, 04:03:16 AM »
Thanks guys, I must admit, I`m really pleased! I`ve not posted a lot for the last week but in truth, I`ve worked on it this week more than ever just trying to get it running! Infact, I`ve had my alarm clock set for 5:30am to give me an hour and half each morning before the family woke up. I think it was bordering on obsessive! I`m much more relaxed now it is running in a fashion. I`m going to have to have a serious think about the backstop - I think the deep tooth is too deep for the position of the back stop and the angle it is pivoting from. I`ll make a longer one and bend it slightly, see if that helps.

I don`t think John visits the forum, but "Gadgetbuilder" has been a massive help and has sent me extensive emails with ideas and support. I actually couldn`t have got it running without his advice. So thanks John, if you ever come across this thread!

I`ve gone back into the original message and edited it to add some details of how it runs in bold text. I hope this makes sense.

Thanks again.

Chris  

Offline saw

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #132 on: August 24, 2011, 04:54:16 AM »
Congratt I just kove this project  :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Offline spuddevans

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #133 on: August 24, 2011, 05:59:09 AM »
That looks and runs really nicely Chris, Well done that man  :clap: :headbang: :clap:

I bet you haven't been able to wipe the  :)  off your face today.


Tim
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Offline Rick O Shea

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #134 on: August 24, 2011, 09:34:55 AM »
Cracking job Chris very well done, congratulations. 
If I knew any more I would be very very dangerous, but as I do not know much I am quite quite harmless.
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Offline AdeV

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #135 on: August 24, 2011, 09:40:17 AM »
That's a really nice clock, and has a wonderful sound to it.

I can't for the life of me figure out how the "gated detent" works...? I can see it flip up & down, somehow allowing a pin through... I just can't see how the pin gets past the tongue... - doh, I see it now, there's a slot cut in the tongue...

Nice work Chris, will it have hands by tomorrow? ;)
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #136 on: August 24, 2011, 10:46:36 AM »
Cheers Chaps.

AdeV - no doubt it`ll stop working before you can see it or it`ll probably stop working tonight when I try and "fix" the back stop from jumping!

I`ve had it running for well over an hour now, which is great but hard work since I have to keep "lifting the weights", so to speak, every 12-15 minutes before the make shift weights (a large steel Allan key!) hits the bottom pillar.

If I can get the back stop from jumping, the next step is to make the pulley system and set it up exactly the same but with a real weight system and have it running for a few days. To be honest, I`m quite excited, I`ve timed it over 15 minutes and with the pendulum set how I initially set it up, I can`t see any loss of time. Clearly I could be minutes out over a week but I was expecting to be way off just timing it for this short time!

Next jobs...1. backstop fix   2. pulley weight system.


Offline doubleboost

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #137 on: August 24, 2011, 04:23:18 PM »
Hi
Chris
That is looking great  :thumbup: :thumbup:
A real credit to you  :clap: :clap: :clap:
I think i will stick to my 4 mill bolts (easy on the eyes) :bugeye: :bugeye:

Offline NickG

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #138 on: August 24, 2011, 06:31:07 PM »
Chris, that is fantastic - I haven't tried to digest how it works at all yet but will do in time!

 :bow:
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline kvom

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #139 on: August 24, 2011, 10:24:11 PM »
lovely work.   :bow:

Offline jgroom

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #140 on: August 25, 2011, 06:51:14 AM »
Making great progress Chris!  :clap:

Cheers

Jeff

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #141 on: August 28, 2011, 06:41:58 PM »
Thanks for the messages guys. Always nice to see people enjoying the build.

I`ve not had much time the last few evenings. The truth is, I work on my clock at night when everyone is in bed and I`ve been so tired I`ve been sleeping myself! I got the weight pulley system together which took a lot longer than I expected! These little things were tricky to make!

 They each run on a tiny bearing;


Because they are only about 3mm wide, I found it really tricky to have a blind hole to a press fit. It was too tight and I ended up killing the little bearing trying to press it into the housing, or it slipped into place. Consequently I had to loctite the bearing into the housing:


Then I made some small shaft for them to sit on:


I managed to get it all hooked up. I then needed a way of checking the weight required in the both the master and jockey weight before cutting any 2" dia steel to size! Both Woodward and Wilding explain that the jockey weight and master weight are dependent on the line used and pulley setup. Woodward used nylon fishing line but this seems to offer no resistence. A kind chap from the NAWCC forum sent me a length of nylon line but like Wilding and Gadget builder, I couldn`t get enough friction and the line just slipped. I am currently using builders braded line and it is working well. I`ve used a coffee jar full off steel offcuts as the master weight which allows me to adjust the weight. I`ve still not got this quite right. I think my jockey weight it too heavy at present. I had the clock running for about 45mins but the pendulum slowly slowly slowly dropped, indicating the master weight on the centre wheel isn`t heavy enough. Woodward did use a much heavier weight than Wilding, and I`m currently using the smaller weight recommended by Wilding. Tomorrow I`ll adjust this, but the clock is running with the pulley...I just need to get the weight and jockey weight sorted and then I can move to the dreaded daisy motion!!!


Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #142 on: August 28, 2011, 06:47:15 PM »
 :lol:  I like the fact I`ve started a thread about using sterling silver on this clock and I`m currently dangling a coffee jar off it!!  :lol:

Offline AdeV

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #143 on: August 28, 2011, 06:57:09 PM »
:lol:  I like the fact I`ve started a thread about using sterling silver on this clock and I`m currently dangling a coffee jar off it!!  :lol:

You could have at least used Gold Blend!  :palm:

Alternatively, Kenko's Millicano (or whatever it's called) comes in silver tins, would one of those do?  ::)

Cheers!
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #144 on: August 31, 2011, 03:38:23 PM »
I`m very much in a state of experimenting now with the clock to get it running OK. My impatience has been my fall once again! The clock kept stopping randomly between either 30 minutes or 3 hours if I was lucky and there were a few compounding issues.

In a desperate attempt to get the clock running, I`d used a hoop on the coffee jar lid which wasn`t allowing the line to slip correctly and if you look at my picture in the last post, it was pulling the line down off the pin wheel at an angle. I made a very rough pulley based on Wildings plans. I will need to shape and finish this to make it look more elegant, but it will transfer to the master weight when I`m happy with everything.



Once this was on the clock, I found most of my problems went away but I still struggled with pendulum losing momentum. Woodward suggested 1400g master weight with the jockey weight being 60% of this when used with nylon monofilament line to stop slippage. Wilding used only a 700g master weight and although he explained Woodwards ideas, he admittedly used a far smaller jockey weight than the 60% suggestion. I was using about 850-900g in my master weight (because I was trying to get the pendulum to have a bigger impulse) and about 200g in my jockey weight. Wilding did mention you could use less "if you could get away with it" and because the braided builders line has much more "grip" than any monofilament fishing line, I experiments to see what the minimum I could use was. Using too little jockey mass and the line would slip and the master weight would slowly fall, however using a small M10 bolt and adding nuts as extras weights, I got to about 50g for the jockey weight.
This made all the difference and my problems with impulse had gone! The clock was running... but that lead to another problem...!!!

With the bigger impulse, the backstop pawl started jumping again! This is something John (gadget builder) and I have been discussing for a while but no amount of bending of the wire could stop it. The position Wilding suggestions will clearly work but even if you don`t get the jumping I was experiencing, this low position of the backstop is not ideal. Really the backstop should be acting in a more horizontal position like the count pawl is acting in on the pendulum rod. This will allow it to easily lift and drop off each tooth, especially the deeper one I was having problems with. John suggested a better position for the bridge would actually be at a 30 deg angle! This wouldn`t look great in my opinion, but the higher position of the backstop would at least reduce the force on the count wheel. This was irrelevant anyway as it was installed on the clock!

The other option would be to take a bracket off the right bridge pillar and mount the backstop on there! So that it was free to move I used a small bearings. To reduce friction even more, I intentionally increased the length of the backstop wire and hooked the back end so that I could add small washers as weights to counter-balance the backstop. This made a MASSIVE difference, both the position and the counter balance. The position stopped it from jumping all together and by adding the small weights, you could tell friction was reduced because the back stop became silent in action!  :ddb:

Now, I made this as a quick job and haven`t shaped it or polished it and clearly I`m not going to use washers to counterbalance the system on the final thing!!! I just stuck it on to see if it would work, but once I`ve made this look OK it will be installed. The bracket needs rounding at both ends and making much narrower:

 

It has been running since 10am this morning which is about 10 hours 30 mins of running time. Fingers crossed it is still going tomorrow morning!!

 

Offline spuddevans

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #145 on: August 31, 2011, 04:02:44 PM »
Coming along nicely there Chris :thumbup:

Tim
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Offline DMIOM

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #146 on: August 31, 2011, 05:08:36 PM »
.....It has been running since 10am this morning which is about 10 hours 30 mins of running time. Fingers crossed it is still going tomorrow morning!!

Well done Chris, that's marvellous; and it must be even more satisfying that you've been able to analyse the problem and devise a workable solution  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

PS how long before you can regulate the clock and then measure the run on the clock itself ?

cheers / Dave

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #147 on: August 31, 2011, 05:51:21 PM »
Thanks Tim!

Dave, yes, it is a tricky one that. I`ve timed it over 10 minutes and using a standard stop watch started from the drop of the impulse pawl there is no clear difference in time. Now this in reality tells me bugger all, other than I`m not rediculously far out but to be honest, I could have lost or corrected the time keeping in my human error of starting the timer! Of course I`ll need to test it over hours, days and weeks for fine adjustments.

I think knowing or at least presuming that the time keeping of the clock is not rediculously out, I`m inclined to complete the clock, face, hands and case! Everything is so delicate and movements on one part, effect a movement or interaction on the other. It isn`t quite the same as a standard geared clock in that respect - it is much more delicate! It takes a good few 5-10 minutes for the pendulum to start to regulate itself alone after the initial human push...I`ve spent hours watching it now, making a change, waiting 10 minutes for it to regulate only to have it stop 30 minutes later and repeat!!  I think I`m going to make it absolutely complete, mount it in position and then start to regulate and test the time keeping... when I get it running well I can then just leave it as I`m guaranteed, when I try and get it right in a temporary setup and try and move it to its permanent position, it`ll change!

I expect it`ll take me a a good few evenings to make the daisy motion and some temporary hands. Perhaps at that point I`ll clean up what I have and mount it uncovered in position and start testing. I`ve not done a shred of woodworking so the case making is going to be fun!  I also need to purchase a proper clock time keeper. It is something I`ve wanted for ages and this is the first real time I can justify the money.

I`m woffling.... 3 or 4 weeks and we should see how well it runs.

Chris

PS. 10:45pm  so that is now 12 hours 15 mins run time!

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #148 on: September 01, 2011, 03:44:37 AM »
Well done with the build Chris it looks a neat bit of work.

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

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Offline Deko

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Re: Craynerd builds Wilding's - Woodward's Gearless Clock
« Reply #149 on: September 01, 2011, 04:39:22 AM »
Looking good Chris. ( I like those little bearings !!! ) Keep up the good work, and check your PM's now and then.

     Cheers  Derek